HI Seax...

Jaroslav, I agree with that and I agree with thoise who are horrified when some clown wants to be a samurai in a late 15th or even 16th Century European setting. Sure, it is distantly possible but it is MOST unlikely. The same would go for Japanese weaponry.

But I also do know that the question of the use of lamellar armor by the 10th & 11th Century Normans is nowhere near as closed as some would have it. We know from sculptures and manuscripts that the Carolingians were using lamellar, as were the Byzantines, the Slavs, the Magyars, and the Moors/Saracens. We also know, from amuscripts, sculptures, and the Charlemagne chess men that the Italo-Normans and the Sicilo-Normans used it. There is some evidence of an admittedly questionable nature of its use in Scandanavia during this period. Also, some of the Lewes chess men appear to be wearing lamellar. Finally, the use of lamellar in Britain from Roman times on through Anglo-Saxon times has been established. So, the question is, if everyone around them is using lamellar, why does one insist that it is impossible for a Norman to use it?

Perhaps I need to rephrase my statement: "Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence. It depends upon the reasonableness of the claim" Long plaids in the 13th Century, as in "Braveheart" is not reasonable and was ridiculous, as was the blue woad face-painting. So was his seduction by the Isabella of France, who would have been about 8 years old, max, when he was executed. (But it made for a lovely scene at Edward I's deathbed.) But not to pick on Mel Gibson alone, how about the jouney of the sorely wounded Maximus from the forests of Germany to Baetica in Southwestern Spain, all in time to find the still-fresh bodies of his wife and son. Or his being grabbed off by an African gladiatorial trainer in Spain? Or that Marcus Aurelius ever intended to do anything but leave the throne to his son, Commodus?
 
Man this thread is an eye opener. Are there any reenactors that aren't this hard core?

And also, wasn't this thread about the Seax? When did it turn to armor? I'm confused by the ideas here. Personally though, as a non reenactor, I like the modern version of the knife pictured below. I like HI's version of the knife very much. I kinda wish we had Vikings in the news today, and I wonder how they would have modernized their own weapons? I'm bored with the middle east.:rolleyes:
 
Please see the following thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=385379
The point of living history is to get it right and to be as accurate as possible. Now, I understand that we have no interest in duplicating Dark Ages medical care, for instance. if I lived in the period I re-enact, I'd be dead, according to all of the graveyard studies, as almost nobody lived past 50 years and I am 63. That is why my Anglo-Saxon name is Ealdred, or "Elder Wise One" for I figure that I should have gained some wisdom in all that time.:D
 
Wait a minute?

Can't be used as a weapon?

Help me to understand that comment....

You mean for poking?

Bill answered that question for me a long time ago...

He explained that for poking with a Khuk...or a seax....

A two hand method is employed...one on the handle...the other on the pommel...

But stabbing has a limited use in some forms...(gonna take heat for that)

But a change in the radius...where the index finger would usually stop against the guard could change that dynamic as well....

Shane
 
I just started this to comment that I felt the HI Seax needed a change! :p .......
 
i like BOTH my seax, pedants can go to heck
seax2.jpg


i don't think HI is into 're-enactment', they are in to producing high quality functional real world knives that may or may not be 'historically accurate', thats not one of their major concerns....
 
I wouldnt even comment feasibility of movies.
If you really like dark ages get Polish movie "Stara Basn" (Old tale) . There are minor glitches about viking chieftan apparell (helmet is funny), but othervise the movie is quite good produced and the realia is perfect (for movie).

For the two seaxes on pictures - surelly nice knives, but neither of them shall have guard or fitting. These are missing on english blades. Thats the reason why "The vikings" or "Regia anglorum" (Groups) rules prohibits them.
Think in practical terms - seax as tool would have none as tool doesnt need them and found scramaseaxes lack them too.
Some of older migration period have fittings, but these are not el cheapo weapons, considering construction or/and decoration.
(To be just there is much more of these without fitting and decoration, which tells us something about the problematic)

I also think thatvery shiny look for knives is unauthentic and not especially aesthetically appealing.

We know that the swords of period werent shinny a good sword was "old and dim" and in sagas we often find description of ocean when speaking about collor of steel.

Any knife used would probably have dark gray collor without a trace of grinding, oxidized and shined by the work. Its the collor of your best bowie after 30 years of hard use in the forrest.
I m now making a replica of viking gotland longknife and I m having the blade to 500 grit hand polishing, probably do some multiple etch in very light etchants or use ricin oil with ferit oxide to get proper look.
 
For norman lamelar armour, discussion there might be, but untill you find iconographic proof or lamelae in england you should not use this for events there.
 
hawkwind said:
but neither of them shall have guard or fitting. These are missing on english blades. Thats the reason why "The vikings" or "Regia anglorum" (Groups) rules prohibits them.
Think in practical terms - seax as tool would have none as tool doesnt need them and found scramaseaxes lack them too.
Some of older migration period have fittings, but these are not el cheapo weapons, considering construction or/and decoration.
(To be just there is much more of these without fitting and decoration, which tells us something about the problematic)

I also think thatvery shiny look for knives is unauthentic and not especially aesthetically appealing.

We know that the swords of period werent shinny a good sword was "old and dim" and in sagas we often find description of ocean when speaking about collor of steel.

Any knife used would probably have dark gray collor without a trace of grinding, oxidized and shined by the work. Its the collor of your best bowie after 30 years of hard use in the forrest.
I m now making a replica of viking gotland longknife and I m having the blade to 500 grit hand polishing, probably do some multiple etch in very light etchants or use ricin oil with ferit oxide to get proper look.

;)
attachment.php

Sarge
 
I'm not one to say this...but my thread's been totally hijacked! :eek:

*sigh*

I don't bloody care what the frick a REAL Seax looked like..I just don't find HI's Seax good and think we could do better,or add a new one is all :D

And I like kronckew's Seax's they be nice! :thumbup:

Mine is simpler for the Kami's sake ;)
 
Thank you Jaroslav, I thought it might help illustrate what you were talking about.

Krull, stick around, threads get hijacked here all the time, why if the dreaded Duck were to show up we'd all be talking about one legged dancing girls (a metaphor for his coveted Durba khukuris).
I feel your pain regarding the HI scramaseax, I was around back when it was being developed, and even pitched in my two cents. It's a good knife, but didn't turn out like I was expecting. For one thing, it wasn't meant to be chiruwa, nor was it meant to have a big old habaki bolster. Still, the kamis will do what they will. I've got one from the first batch, with my name and an inscription etched into the blade in Anglo Saxon runes, wouldn't trade it for a sackful of "correct" seaxes.

Sarge

Edited to add: It's wrong of me to poke fun at the kamis for not getting this detail right or that detail right on knife designs that originate in western culture, consider this, how many really good khukuris have you seen that didn't come out of Nepal? With the shoe on the other foot, the matter finds a more equitable balance.
 
Chiruwa refers to exposed (full) tang with riveted scales, also called Panawal meaning pinned. If memory serves, the original model that was sent over implied enclosed "stick" tang construction. That's why I'm not taking any chances with the sgian dubh. Rather than just send a wooden model, I'm sending not one, but two, actual knives. I have no doubt the kamis will probably put their own spin on it, but at least I'll know I did the best I could.

Sarge
 
as i suspected. the pedants are attempting to hijack the thread.

life is too short to argue over and attempt one upmanship over minor details.

as i and others have said, it don't matter if they are not historically accurate, mine may not be 'acceptable' to the purist, but i don't care, they're purdy, they work & they are not wall hangers. same with HI's, they are meant to fill a particular nitch & do it well. if you want a historically accurate seax, go back in your tardis & get one, you ain't gonna find one here. or have one made to your exacting specs. probably cost a fortune & not be 100% accurate either.

p.s. - the ones in my photo are NOT shiny polished, especially the bottom one which is pattern welded 'damascus' steel and sulphuric etched to a dark rough grey/black. their protective coating of ballistol & the camera flash reflection is the culprit. the upper one has a guard only because i was experimenting & got the smith to add one for my pleasure, not anyone elses.
some may prefer my 4" edc one (the edge is on the lower, straight bit) only ingredients are a hunk of HiCarbon Steel, a hunk of antler and some sweat, and some ballistol of course.
seax3.jpg


having said that, it would be nice if HI provided a better sheath/scabbard, even i don't like snap fastners on them & they hold the blade edge upside down.
 
Kronckew?

I'm sure you didn't mean "pedant," i.e.,

Main Entry: ped·ant
Pronunciation: 'pe-d&nt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Italian pedante
1 obsolete : a male schoolteacher
2 a : one who makes a show of knowledge b : one who is unimaginative or who unduly emphasizes minutiae in the presentation or use of knowledge c : a formalist or precisionist in teaching


But rather,

"Historically accurate or precise" scholar.

The difference in the terms may seem slight, but, in 1344, Pierre DuChamps, in his treties la languageson, argued (quite successfully, I feel) that the nuances of the former have corrupted it's elemental meaning to the society, and thus made accurate translation difficult for a non-middle french speaker.

Gian Pietro Quantifico, on the other hand, made a persuasive presentation that the nuances were an affectation that DuChamps was using to aggrandize his own scholarly stature. DuChamps countered the Quantifico was a big smelly body odor.




They're all very nice.





Be well and safe.
 
i would never, of course insult anyone by implying the 2b. definition. ;)

more along the lines of pedagogue:
One who by teaching has become formal, positive, set in his ways; one who has the manner of a schoolmaster; a pedant. -Goldsmith.

or maybe from the latin 'pedis', meaning one with smelly feet. :D

anyway we've had one bloody go-round already this last year about historical accuracy of HI kukhris, we don't really need one about their specials either, so i'm leaving this thread to engage in more joyfull persuits, i've got a new punal to sharpen & oil.....
 
Just for the record, I was quite excited when I first read about HI making seaxes. Then I saw what they were going to sell and was sick with disappointment because the result was so very far from any seax that I had EVER seen. And, yes, I may be a bit insistent upon historicity. It goes with the territory of being involved in living history as a hobby. I suspect that Hawkwind and I are rather moderate compared to some that I have met. I know that i am.
 
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