High Performance Hand Axe - A Photo Essay

tholiver said:
I bought a Snow and Nealley Penobscot bay this summer, i love it!
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I have used the GB for quite some time. Even though the overall size is roughly the same, this is really a different animal all together.

I was using them both today, doing lots of side by side. There is no question that the S&N rules for splitting. But, the "feel" for chopping is drastically different.

The GB feels very light an nimble. It bits in good. I have the S&N biting deeper, but has a less nimble feel. Kind of like hitting like a ton of bricks. If that makes any sense :D I just love axes :thumbup: As if you have never heard me say that before :D

tholiver said:
Kinda off-topic but have you picked up a Martindale Golok yet?
I love to see your modding magic applied to one of those.
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No I have not. I really want to, but I have been a bit side-tracked. I had been working on getting an account with S&N for some time, and when it finally came through, I have been up to my elbows in boxes of axes.

I also have a batch of my own knife design that I have been working on, so getting a hold of a martindale as fell down the list. I am sure I will get to it before too long. You don't happen to have one you want to send me......do you? :D

B
 
Thanks for the axe education, Brian. I have used axes all my life, but all I knew was some seemed to work better than others. Now I know why.
 
Thanks HD.

I like axes like you like big chopping knives, machetes and goloks.

North versus south I guess :D
 
First off this is my first post here having followed a link to this thread from BCUK. I am a full time green woodworker in Derbyshire UK. Hello.

I am always interested in discussion of the niceties of axe design and am a bit of an axe addict myself. Having said that I think that all the discussion that is available on the internet can confuse folk who are out to buy their first axe this post included. In my experience the difference in axe design and setting up are almost insignificant compared learning good technique. Having used a great many axes from the very cheapest DIY store jobs through the Gransfors range, Ceggas, a good collection of Old English axes, hand forged Swedish axes by Svante Djarve etc (not used the S&N though it certainly looks nice) I find that even the cheap Chinese imports are pretty good when sharpened reasonably and used with good technique. I think it is important that folk realise that the difference in efficiency we are talking about in here is the 5% that feels very sweet if you really appreciate it but most beginners could not feel. Good technique accounts for far greater difference in axing efficiency to my mind.

I am not a great fan of the SFA, as you point out at the start it is a bit of a jack of all trades master of none. I find the handle too long for controlled hewing of small objects (tent pegs spoons) but too short and the head too light for real felling or splitting. My personal favourite is the GB carving axe as i do a lot of hewing but if I am felling or splitting I use a proper felling axe (or chainsaw) and a maul.

I was surprised to see from your website that you sell these axes but not the Gransfors, most forums that I am a member of insist that such interests are declared when reviewing products.
 
Hi Robin wood,

Welcome to the ws&s forum. I hope you stay around here, and that was very nice first post! We could use your input around here for sure.

robin wood said:
I think it is important that folk realise that the difference in efficiency we are talking about in here is the 5% that feels very sweet if you really appreciate it but most beginners could not feel. Good technique accounts for far greater difference in axing efficiency to my mind.
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This couldn't be more true. Once you hit even a very moderate price point, you generally start paying lots of money for very marginal increases in performance. That is the point, where especially a beginner, needs to decide how willing they are to part with the extra cash.

One of the reasons I think GB is so popular, is because like you metioned, they do come very well setup (edgewise). They are the only axe that I know of that can shave hair straight from the box. To most that have not experienced that, or have not setup an axe edge themself, it can me a huge increase in performance for them. Of course, just speculation.

With respect to me selling them; I really wasn't trying to do a side by side comparison. I guess I should have left the GB out all together. I don't really feel like I am forcing anyone to buy anything. In fact, if I wanted to do that I would not show so much detail of the modifications and just pretend "only I know how to do it" :D Instead I tried to show exactly how and what I did, and hope to encourage others to play with their axes, and it sounds like a few of them will! I could also sell GB, by the way, but I choose not too. Believe me, if I thought I could make a better axe starting out with anything else, I would. I am by no means done either. I have a few vintage collins heads that I need to get to work on for comparison. Of course, coming across those are hit and miss.

Regardless, welcome again to the forum, and I hope we see you around.

Brian
 
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I hate to say it, Brian, but I think a big reason GBs are so popular is the "boutique" attraction. Everyone knows they're considered high-end (and high-priced) gear and to own one tells everyone you are willing to drop some bank on good gear.

Something that's been proven to me on this forum is that once you know a moderate amount about how to use a given tool, and some knowledge of files, stones and belt sanders, you're actually better off buying a good, but lower-priced product (like S&N vs GB) and YOU making the mods to get it exactly how YOU want it. Eventually really pissing the wife off by throwing her car and the kid's bikes out of the garage to move in the steel rack and forge. . .:D

But seriously, I'm at the point of needing to get me a belt sander. I can do the work with files and stones, but with a belt sander I can do in minutes what takes hours now.

For the new guys: seriously, get yourself a few Nicolson files at the hardware store, a basic coarse/fine Norton stone (or diamond stones if you're willing to spend) and something cheap to practice on. I practiced on a $6 made in Mexico hatchet I picked up at Ace hardware, and figured out what angles and geometries worked on that before filing on a $50 S&N. You don't learn until you do, and once you learn you wonder how you got along before.
 
Gotta agree again guys, Ive gone through alot of axes, the wetterligns of course, eastwings, Fiskars, gerbers, coleman and even the hardware store special. But one thing I noticed is growing up, the $20 coleman I had never gave me any problem. I used that for many years, but then the internet came along and I have a whole new selection availible. But I can tell you one thing, have the background of GB has really helped their sales, of course the bushcraft guru Mears uses one so its must be good rite?
But this can't be said enough, experience is the only thing going to help here, you can have a fantastic axe out of the box, but you dont know how to use it and you've got a chunk of metal with some wood on the end, not much use huh?
 
Cpl Punishment said:
Eventually really pissing the wife off by throwing her car and the kid's bikes out of the garage to move in the steel rack and forge. . .
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HEY.....are you spying on me :eek:

Cpl Punishment said:
Something that's been proven to me on this forum is that once you know a moderate amount about how to use a given tool, and some knowledge of files, stones and belt sanders, you're actually better off buying a good, but lower-priced product (like S&N vs GB) and YOU making the mods to get it exactly how YOU want it.
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I have to agree. However, there are very few people that I have come across that understand modifications beyond the edge. In a good "all around" tool, the whole head geometry comes into play eventually.

So, if you get one thing out of the this thread, be aware of head geometry before spending hours on modifications.

B
 
robin wood said:
I am always interested in discussion of the niceties of axe design and am a bit of an axe addict myself. Having said that I think that all the discussion that is available on the internet can confuse folk who are out to buy their first axe this post included.

I was surprised to see from your website that you sell these axes but not the Gransfors, most forums that I am a member of insist that such interests are declared when reviewing products.
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I have looked at a number of other sites and the only thing I have learned that the GB design is good for some types of forests but not for the northern North American. The "north american pattern" (the S&N style) was developed over the centuries to match the trees at hand, same for the GB I assume for its area. This post discusses one use of an ax, splitting, and I think it presents a very understandable technical description. :thumbup:

Brian's post did not mention he sold S&N axes nor offered any services. I do not find that at all unusual or distressing. Half the people here show knives, packs and gear they sell. If a product is presented and you like it buy it. Most people google the product and buy at the best price anyway so you are not assured of a sale.

Brian's post pointed out the shortcomings (based on his experience) of the GB SFA and the S&N ax. I do not have the tools, skill or patience to mod a knife much less an ax. There are people on this forum who do, and will do one for you for a nominal or more than nominal price. I have used them before. When I checked Brian's site I was pleasantly surprised he sold the modded ax as a standard item at a very reasonable extra to the price. You can google all you want but you cannot find the modded ax anywhere else.

You said you were new to this forum and I welcome you to it. I find Brian's posts very interesting and informative but we all have to judge for ourselves. To question his intentions on your first post is disturbing to me. :thumbdn:
 
I wonder how many hadn't even looked at Brian's sig line to even know he had a store (like me) before it was pointed out?

Oh, and I do think it's cool that he sells the modded hatchet for those who don't have the tools or skills (yet) to do the mods, but want a good axe now. Plus the price is about what you'd pay (a little less, actually) for the Pen Bay's chief rival, the Small FA (I try not to say SFA, because that can also refer to the Scandinavian Forest axe -- their Hudson Bay style axe).
 
HornyToad said:
You said you were new to this forum and I welcome you to it. I find Brian's posts very interesting and informative but we all have to judge for ourselves. To question his intentions on your first post is disturbing to me. :thumbdn:
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Sorry to disturb you. It simply surprises me that it's the norm to review your own products on here, it does make it a bit difficult to know if a review is impartial and objective or not. On British Blades for example it is the norm to declare if you have been given or loaned a knife for free to do a review and folk whilst posting pictures of their own work would not post reviews comparing it to other products.

I can see that it may appear a rather adversarial first post for which I apologise. I would like to encourage folk to look at other axes than Gransfors, cheap axes work well if you know how to use them, so do many cheap knives again if you know what you are doing.

Have a look at this chap to see high skill level with a cheap axe.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LjrJapcdWqY

This one is me with a Gransfors carving axe.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx-NTPBoLmU
 
robin wood said:
This one is me with a Gransfors carving axe.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx-NTPBoLmU
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Nice video Robin. It cracked me up though.....right there in the living room, and the dog falling asleep on you :D

That axe is well suited to that task for sure. I have used the carving axe before as well too. It would be nice to carry multiple things in the woods with us, but the carving axe would still not be my "one" tool. If that makes any sense :confused:

Brian
 
If I did that in my living room , besides losing body parts from my lack of axe skills, my wife would use the axe on me! :)
 
Beautiful! I've been looking at their Hudson Bay axe, but this one looks so finely tuned, and a real pleasure to use, that I couldn't resist stopping by your virtual trade-blanket. Thanks for the opportunity to check out this customized piece of gear! The hand axe that comes along with me usually is an Estwing with stacked leather handle & real funky profile, but I've really been feeling the need for some good hickory & more traditional pattern for the area I'm in.
Been wrestling over where to start off my collection of nice axes, and this just seemed appropriate. I'm partial to the Hudson Bay head, as my uncle who rides a dog sled & lives in Alaska is asked what kind of axe he carries, "trusty Hudson's Bay, of course." (I'm willing to bet there's more to it than that, lol). Still hoping to capture a GB or Wetterlings eventually for the full experiential flavor, if prices don't keep floating away. If you ever consider giving a Hudson Bay your golden touch, please let me know!
 
PatriotDan said:
Brian, do you know the hardness and steel used in S&N axes?
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Hey PatriotDan,

I honestly do not know. It is a spec that S&N does not publish. If you are really interested, I can give them a call tomorrow and see if they will tell me.

Not knowing the hardness, the actual use of it seems as good as it can be. I keep all my axes at the point where it will shave hair. It seems it does not take too much work with hardwood for that edge to fall off. That is the first notable change. After that, it still remains fuzz stick sharp for a good long time. Long way of saying, I am fine with the performance of their steel.

Also, a lot of people talk of chipping during first few uses, until it is sharpened a couple times. Since the first thing I did to mine was sharpen it, I can not say if that would be an issue or not. I am glad to say I have not experience any small chipping at all.

NaturalWorld said:
If you ever consider giving a Hudson Bay your golden touch, please let me know!
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I got one in process right now for a friend. I really like that axe, so I think I am going to order a batch of them tomorrow. One of course will be mine! :D
 
Nice videos Robin!

Re: the Hudson Bay head.
One reason I chose the Pen Bay axe originally is the Hudson Bay style head. I really like it because it affords a long cutting edge without the weight of having the entire head be that broad. This is especially important if you ever use your axe/hatchet for game prep.
 
HornyToad said:
I have looked at a number of other sites and the only thing I have learned that the GB design is good for some types of forests but not for the northern North American. The "north american pattern" (the S&N style) was developed over the centuries to match the trees at hand, same for the GB I assume for its area. This post discusses one use of an ax, splitting, and I think it presents a very understandable technical description. :thumbup:
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I thought this was an interesting comment. Google research says forests in Sweden are mostly pine and spruce, but N American woods are much more varied. Not having much experience with this, does anybody else agree with HornyToad ? Have they found much difference in say a Hudson Bay .vs GB or even a Oxhead type axe head in limbing, light chopping/splitting of the type being considered here (roughly 1.5 lb head, <= 19" handle).
Also i was looking at GB's sight and to me their Hunters Axe had profile similar to the Hudson Bay, but at $160 its pretty steep.
 
I've heard it said by a LOT of people that the GB is hell on conifers, but not so great on deciduous hardwoods. Most say the bit is too thin and gets stuck rather than blast out chips.
 
modalnot said:
I thought this was an interesting comment. Google research says forests in Sweden are mostly pine and spruce, but N American woods are much more varied. Not having much experience with this, does anybody else agree with HornyToad ? Have they found much difference in say a Hudson Bay .vs GB or even a Oxhead type axe head in limbing, light chopping/splitting of the type being considered here (roughly 1.5 lb head, <= 19" handle).
Also i was looking at GB's sight and to me their Hunters Axe had profile similar to the Hudson Bay, but at $160 its pretty steep.
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There is almost too much information to repeat here.

For a good history on the axe, and especially what happened when the Europeans designs came to America, and then the subsequent designs afterward, check out An Axe to Grind.

Warning: It is one of the documents that started me on my path to this sickness :D So....use with caution :D

B
 
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