Hinderer Investigator Pens- Need some info+ Are they worth it?

[DrDrifter]

Please allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a bit.

This looks like a well constructed pen, that's definitely a plus. The ink capacity, based on description as I've never held one, seems limited as this is a "tactical" pen, so that is a minus.

But dealing with the self-defense issue is where I hesitate on these products. Much like pepper spray, if you don't have it IN YOUR HAND when attacked, it's useless as the attacker has the drop on you. This is why women with pepper spray are sometimes instructed to keep the spray in their hand (usually inside a purse) when walking down the street.

I train in MMA (muay-thai kickboxing and submission grappling) these tools are always with me.

In my and many other jurisdictions the use of weapons is illegal unless being attacked with a weapon. To escalate the confrontation yourself, with a knife, gun, kubaton, tactical pen, etc., when faced with an unarmed attacker puts you in legal hot water. Maybe even in jail for a few months or years.

If someone did pull a weapon on me, it would likely be a knife or gun. What use would a tactical pen be to me? Exactly zero.

Besides, I EDC a Sebenza in my front pocket. If I really, really needed a weapon, I would pick my pocket knife over my pen everyday of the week. AND EVEN THEN, if someone pulled a knife or gun on me to rob me, I'd just give them what they wanted and (usually) avoid any injury at all. If they still wanted to kill me then I would get stabby-stabby and try and kill them first. But only then.

I've been trained in ways to kill people with my bare hands, with a knife, and with a gun. In a real-life scenario, I try and talk my way out of it or run away, 100% of the time. Even though 99.9% of people are not trained fighters, with or without weapons, why take the risk even if I could easily KO, subdue, choke-out, stab, kill them, etc.?

To me, kubatons, tactical pens, etc., are more tactifool than anything. Real fighters usually run away and live to fight another day, unless left with no other options. And in those situations a tactical pen is 100% useless over a knife, gun, or melee weapon like a bat or crowbar.

/end rant

 

[Need2Know]

Ink capacity is on par with other Fisher Space pens as the Investigator uses the same cartridges.

The pen is not a primary weapon. One's mind is.

If its not for you, it's not for you.

Enjoy running from a fight...peace.

 

[김원진]

some size comparisons. i remember seeing someone else use sharpies as a comparison which helped me a lot to gauge the investigator and ED, so here are some extras to size things up.

 

[RDA]

In my and many other jurisdictions the use of weapons is illegal unless being attacked with a weapon. To escalate the confrontation yourself, with a knife, gun, cabochon, tactical pen, etc., when faced with an unarmed attacker puts you in legal hot water. Maybe even in jail for a few months or years.

If someone did pull a weapon on me, it would likely be a knife or gun. What use would a tactical pen be to me? Exactly zero.

Besides, I EDC a Sebenza in my front pocket. If I really, really needed a weapon, I would pick my pocket knife over my pen everyday of the week. AND EVEN THEN, if someone pulled a knife or gun on me to rob me, I'd just give them what they wanted and (usually) avoid any injury at all. If they still wanted to kill me then I would get stabby-stabby and try and kill them first. But only then.

I've been trained in ways to kill people with my bare hands, with a knife, and with a gun. In a real-life scenario, I try and talk my way out of it or run away, 100% of the time. Even though 99.9% of people are not trained fighters, with or without weapons, why take the risk even if I could easily KO, subdue, choke-out, stab, kill them, etc.?

To me, cabochons, tactical pens, etc., are more tactifool than anything. Real fighters usually run away and live to fight another day, unless left with no other options. And in those situations a tactical pen is 100% useless over a knife, gun, or melee weapon like a bat or crowbar.

One doesn't always have to encounter an attacker with a gun or knife to feel their life is threatened, an easy example is a 200 lb. man putting his unwelcome hands on a 100 lb. woman. I doubt many woman who would use a tactical pen to thwart an attacker in this scenario would see jail time. Even if she spent the night in jail, that seems like a good trade-off to being raped or killed. This is just one example. Even in your comments you mention "I've been trained in ways to kill people with my bare hands". Therefore, if you attacked me with just your hands and I felt my life was threatened, I would have no issue using whatever weapon I could to stop the threat.

I believe you are way overgeneralizing with the comment "In my and many other jurisdictions the use of weapons is illegal unless being attacked with a weapon."

 

[Need2Know]

some size comparisons. i remember seeing someone else use sharpies as a comparison which helped me a lot to gauge the investigator and ED, so here are some extras to size things up.

like this one...

I like this photo too, is fun to punch the pen into things...

 

[Capbyrd]

Please allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a bit.

This looks like a well constructed pen, that's definitely a plus. The ink capacity, based on description as I've never held one, seems limited as this is a "tactical" pen, so that is a minus.

But dealing with the self-defense issue is where I hesitate on these products. Much like pepper spray, if you don't have it IN YOUR HAND when attacked, it's useless as the attacker has the drop on you. This is why women with pepper spray are sometimes instructed to keep the spray in their hand (usually inside a purse) when walking down the street.

I train in MMA (muay-thai kickboxing and submission grappling) these tools are always with me.

In my and many other jurisdictions the use of weapons is illegal unless being attacked with a weapon. To escalate the confrontation yourself, with a knife, gun, cabochon, tactical pen, etc., when faced with an unarmed attacker puts you in legal hot water. Maybe even in jail for a few months or years.

If someone did pull a weapon on me, it would likely be a knife or gun. What use would a tactical pen be to me? Exactly zero.

Besides, I EDC a Sebenza in my front pocket. If I really, really needed a weapon, I would pick my pocket knife over my pen everyday of the week. AND EVEN THEN, if someone pulled a knife or gun on me to rob me, I'd just give them what they wanted and (usually) avoid any injury at all. If they still wanted to kill me then I would get stabby-stabby and try and kill them first. But only then.

I've been trained in ways to kill people with my bare hands, with a knife, and with a gun. In a real-life scenario, I try and talk my way out of it or run away, 100% of the time. Even though 99.9% of people are not trained fighters, with or without weapons, why take the risk even if I could easily KO, subdue, choke-out, stab, kill them, etc.?

To me, cabochons, tactical pens, etc., are more tactifool than anything. Real fighters usually run away and live to fight another day, unless left with no other options. And in those situations a tactical pen is 100% useless over a knife, gun, or melee weapon like a bat or crowbar.

/end rant

The best weapon is the one that you have on you. If one has to go to court for example, the trek to and from the parking lot will be made without a gun and without a knife. The pen could be the only weapon. Someone already mentioned a woman being attacked and using it to stab her attacker.

I will likely never use the pen for anything other than writing and poking holes in my desk but it does both of those things very well. Not everyone who buys one of these has any "tactifoolish" delusions.

 

[DrDrifter]

The pen is not a primary weapon. One's mind is.
If its not for you, it's not for you.
Enjoy running from a fight...peace.

Actually, I think the pen is a nice piece as I much prefer metal to plastic. If I were in the market for a premium pen it would be a strong contender. As a pen... not as a weapon.

It's easy to talk tough on the internet but real-life tough guys get hurt by violence and would rather avoid it altogether. Which is why I prefer running to fighting, if I have the opportunity. Getting tetanus shots after punching someone in the face and cutting your knuckles open on their bacteria-laden teeth isn't fun. Neither is getting stabbed or shot, I reckon.

My striking coaches (two brothers) are elite MMA fighters and coaches. This happened to one of them, Andre "Dida", outside of a local MMA gym in 2010:

A shooting that took place a few weeks ago outside of a popular MMA gym in Toronto came very close to ending the life of K-1 and DREAM standout Andre Amade.

Both Dida and his brother Mauricio Veio were getting into the vehicle of a student to catch a ride home after class on the afternoon of October 20 when a gunman shot two rounds into the back seat of the SUV they were sitting in.

The popular trainer of UFC light heavyweight champion Mauricio "Shogun" Rua was grazed on the back of the head by one of the bullets while another student who was sitting beside him in the vehicle was hit in the arm.

Fortunately both men survived.

In spite of the ten staples he required to close the gash, Dida, who has since opened his own gym in Toronto, is still planning to compete on Monday’s K-1 Max card against Hinata.

Being tough doesn't stop bullets or knives. Being lucky can keep you alive but not being there in the first place (by fleeing) is safest of all. Mock running away if you want, but I live in a violent city and understand the real risks of an attack even if I am trained to face it.

One doesn't always have to encounter an attacker with a gun or knife to feel their life is threatened, an easy example is a 200 lb. man putting his unwelcome hands on a 100 lb. woman. I doubt many woman who would use a tactical pen to thwart an attacker in this scenario would see jail time. Even if she spent the night in jail, that seems like a good trade-off to being raped or killed. This is just one example. Even in your comments you mention "I've been trained in ways to kill people with my bare hands". Therefore, if you attacked me with just your hands and I felt my life was threatened, I would have no issue using whatever weapon I could to stop the threat.

I believe you are way overgeneralizing with the comment "In my and many other jurisdictions the use of weapons is illegal unless being attacked with a weapon."

I live in Canada, the whole nation is governed by the same Criminal Code with regards to weapons and violence. In a country with some of the toughest gun control laws anywhere, I am licensed to possess handguns as well as rifles/shotguns. Throughout Canada you are legally forbidden from using a gun to shoot somebody unless your life is in IMMINENT MORTAL PERIL which cannot be avoided by running away or fleeing.

Shooting an attacker, whether armed or unarmed, would only be justified if your life was about to end at their hands or they were raping you. Not merely getting hit or grabbed. You must be ABOUT TO DIE OR BEING PHYSICALLY RAPED to justify the use of lethal force of any kind. If a knife-wielding attacker is not within stabbing distance or rushing forward to stab you and only a few feet away, you cannot legally shoot them in Canada.

In Canada, this includes knives and melee weapons like kubatons or "tactical" pens. You cannot use a knife on an armed or unarmed attacker, even to stab them in the butt cheek and cause a flesh wound, unless they are actively trying to kill or rape (not merely injure) you. You would facing charges of assault with a deadly weapon, attempted murder, or murder, even though you weren't the initial aggressor, unless you could prove you were faced with imminent and inescapable mortal danger.

As another example, if a mugger attacks me and I knock them to the ground with a kick/punch/elbow/throw, in Canada I am legally required to immediately escape from the situation at the point they are on the ground. If I attempt to kick them in the head or beat upon them any further, without the grounded attacker ACTIVELY TRYING TO CONTINUE TO HARM ME, I am guilty of criminal assault and possibly attempted murder (if, for instance, I kick them in the head a few times when they are on the ground).

I am sure there are other jurisdictions with just as strict laws on the use of force even in self-defense situations.

The best weapon is the one that you have on you. If one has to go to court for example, the trek to and from the parking lot will be made without a gun and without a knife. The pen could be the only weapon. Someone already mentioned a woman being attacked and using it to stab her attacker.

I will likely never use the pen for anything other than writing and poking holes in my desk but it does both of those things very well. Not everyone who buys one of these has any "tactifoolish" delusions.

I don't carry a gun, not allowed to here, and I wouldn't even if legally permitted. I carry a knife everyday not as a weapon but as a tool. I've never used a knife yet as a weapon and I've carried one daily for many years.

To use your scenario of walking from the car to a courthouse as an example, there is nothing that a tactical pen can do that a car key or Bic pen can't to stop an attacker. If the attacker has a gun, you lose. If the attacker has a knife, you lose unless they are completely inept with a blade and you get VERY lucky (don't count on it). If the attacker has a bat, you lose as they have more range than your melee weapon.

If the attacker closes the distance to the point where you can strike him with a "tactical" pen, your keys or Bic pen are just as effective and dangerous as the "tactical" pen.

You mention that the best weapon is the one you are carrying. You are guaranteed to be carrying your car keys in your scenario. Keep them in your hand. Using a car key, it requires little force to stab someone in the eye to incapacitate them or to fatally stab them in the throat by aiming to sever either of their carotid arteries.

By the same token, it is much better to use your "tactical" pen to stab someone than it is to strike them with it like a kubaton. A cheap, disposable Bic pen would be just as effective as any metal "tactical" pen at stabbing an attacker in the eye or throat, both soft targets.

The issue of needing a "tactical" pen beyond a security checkpoint, like at an airport or courthouse, is ridiculous. Behind the security screeners, what are the chances ANYONE has a knife, gun, or other weapon? Miniscule. Someone would have to seriously screw up screening people or the armed individual is law enforcement who are on duty and required to carry a weapon. By law, even law enforcement personnel must have a pressing and documented need to bring a gun onto a plane and not check it in their bags.

Behind airport security, I am just as armed with my cheap Bic pen as you are with your "tactical" pen and I can use it to stab soft targets on the body just as effectively. So far, I've only used my pen to fill out those stupid customs forms you get when you travel across borders.

 

[Need2Know]

DrDrifter,

Please refrain from anything that may be considered offensive. I make no assumptions about you, please do not make them of us. Yes it is easy to be a tough guy BAMF on the Internet. Hang out here a bit and you will see we are a respect first group.

The Invesigator is a nice, robust pen that will provide years of useful service, just replace the ink cartridges when they run out, and your good to go.

No one wants a confrontation. We don't go looking for fights. I for one don't even stir up Internet BS.

I'd much appreciate you don't stir up any BS either.

Respect shown, please reciprocate in kind.

 

[DrDrifter]

DrDrifter,

Please refrain from anything that may be considered offensive. I make no assumptions about you, please do not make them of us. Yes it is easy to be a tough guy BAMF on the Internet. Hang out here a bit and you will see we are a respect first group.

The Invesigator is a nice, robust pen that will provide years of useful service, just replace the ink cartridges when they run out, and your good to go.

No one wants a confrontation. We don't go looking for fights. I for one don't even stir up Internet BS.

I'd much appreciate you don't stir up any BS either.

Respect shown, please reciprocate in kind.

I have been nothing but respectful in bringing up my points challenging the practical efficacy and relative value of a pen designed to be a tactical weapon.

I have expressed my opinions, supported by facts and my experiences, without leveling any personal or inflammatory attacks. That you would accuse me of being disrespectful or offensive for voicing an uncommon opinion is itself offensive to me as a forum member as it seems you seek to curtail, instead of welcome, discussion by throwing around accusations when someone challenges your viewpoint.

 

[RDA]

I live in Canada, the whole nation is governed by the same Criminal Code with regards to weapons and violence. In a country with some of the toughest gun control laws anywhere, I am licensed to possess handguns as well as rifles/shotguns. Throughout Canada you are legally forbidden from using a gun to shoot somebody unless your life is in IMMINENT MORTAL PERIL which cannot be avoided by running away or fleeing.

Shooting an attacker, whether armed or unarmed, would only be justified if your life was about to end at their hands or they were raping you. Not merely getting hit or grabbed. You must be ABOUT TO DIE OR BEING PHYSICALLY RAPED to justify the use of lethal force of any kind. If a knife-wielding attacker is not within stabbing distance or rushing forward to stab you and only a few feet away, you cannot legally shoot them in Canada.

In Canada, this includes knives and melee weapons like cabochons or "tactical" pens. You cannot use a knife on an armed or unarmed attacker, even to stab them in the butt cheek and cause a flesh wound, unless they are actively trying to kill or rape (not merely injure) you. You would facing charges of assault with a deadly weapon, attempted murder, or murder, even though you weren't the initial aggressor, unless you could prove you were faced with imminent and inescapable mortal danger.

As another example, if a mugger attacks me and I knock them to the ground with a kick/punch/elbow/throw, in Canada I am legally required to immediately escape from the situation at the point they are on the ground. If I attempt to kick them in the head or beat upon them any further, without the grounded attacker ACTIVELY TRYING TO CONTINUE TO HARM ME, I am guilty of criminal assault and possibly attempted murder (if, for instance, I kick him in the head a few times when they are on the ground).

I am sure there are other jurisdictions with just as strict laws on the use of force even in self-defense situations.

I am sure there are plenty of countries, jurisdictions, providences, nations, locales, possessions, territories, whatever that have as strict laws as Canada, or even stricter for that matter. Thank goodness most of the US has more sense than that....

I don't carry a gun, not allowed to here, and I wouldn't even if legally permitted. I carry a knife everyday not as a weapon but as a tool. I've never used a knife yet as a weapon and I've carried one daily for many years.

To use your scenario of walking from the car to a courthouse as an example, there is nothing that a tactical pen can do that a car key or Bic pen can't to stop an attacker. If the attacker has a gun, you lose. If the attacker has a knife, you lose unless they are completely inept with a blade and you get VERY lucky (don't count on it). If the attacker has a bat, you lose as they have more range than your melee weapon.

If the attacker closes the distance to the point where you can strike him with a "tactical" pen, your keys or Bic pen are just as effective and dangerous as the "tactical" pen.

You mention that the best weapon is the one you are carrying. You are guaranteed to be carrying your car keys in your scenario. Keep them in your hand. Using a car key, it requires little force to stab someone in the eye to incapacitate them or to fatally stab them in the throat by aiming to sever either of the carotid arteries.

By the same token, it is much better to use your "tactical" pen to stab someone than it is to strike them with it like a cabochon. A cheap, disposable Bic pen would be just as effective as any metal "tactical" pen at stabbing an attacker in the eye or throat, both soft targets.

The issue of needing a "tactical" pen beyond a security checkpoint, like at an airport or courthouse, is ridiculous. Behind the security screeners, what are the chances ANYONE has a knife, gun, or other weapon? Miniscule. Someone would have to seriously screw up screening people or the armed individual is law enforcement who are on duty and required to carry a weapon. By law, even law enforcement personnel must have a pressing and documented need to bring a gun onto a plane and not check it in their bags.

Behind airport security, I am just as armed with my cheap Bic pen as you are with your "tactical" pen and I can use it to stab soft targets on the body just as effectively. So far, I've only used my pen to fill out those stupid customs forms you get when you travel across borders.

I respectfully disagree, if I had a choice between a Bic pen and a Hinderer metal pen to defend myself, I know what I would choose. I would elaborate but it is clear your opinion is set in stone so I don't see much "point" in continuing.

 

[Need2Know]

I have been nothing but respectful in bringing up my points challenging the practical efficacy and relative value of a pen designed to be a tactical weapon.

I have expressed my opinions, supported by facts and my experiences, without leveling any personal or inflammatory attacks. That you would accuse me of being disrespectful or offensive for voicing an uncommon opinion is itself offensive to me as a forum member as it seems you seek to curtail, instead of welcome, discussion by throwing around accusations when someone challenges your viewpoint.

Never said you were disrespectful. Simply ask that you don't become so.

You are welcome to your views.

No apologies will be offered by me on any of my comments here.

If the pen is not for you, then it's not for you.

I keep bringing up the pen...because, after all, that's the theme of this thread.

 

[DrDrifter]

I am sure there are plenty of countries, jurisdictions, providences, nations, locales, possessions, territories, whatever that have as strict laws as Canada, or even stricter for that matter. Thank goodness most of the US has more sense than that....



I respectfully disagree, if I had a choice between a Bic pen and a Hinderer metal pen to defend myself, I know what I would choose. I would elaborate but it is clear your opinion is set in stone so I don't see much "point" in continuing.

My opinion is certainly open to change if given reasonable facts to support a new viewpoint. You selectively pick up on my Bic pen example, which I intentionally used to demonstrate that a pen worth pennies is just as lethal as a pen worth thousands of times more. What would you say about my key example? You almost certainly have your house and/or car keys on you as often, if not more often, than you would be carrying any type of pen. Just like the pen or pepper spray, if your keys are not in your hand when you are attacked you will have little to no chance of extracting them to use as a weapon once the attack is under way. Do you suggest walking around with the pen in your hand at all times? This would be the only way to assure you are ready to use the weapon in case of attack.

I feel that discussions about how to face violent scenarios are often tainted by inexperience, ignorance, or an inflated sense of efficacy for a given system, technique, or weapon. So far I have read nothing in this thread to sway my opinion that a "tactical" pen is a viable self-defense option, even considering the basic replacements I suggested in terms of cost or efficacy.

Buy the pen because you like the way it looks and is designed. It seems as though it is a very nice pen to use and admire. Just please don't suggest it is a practical self-defense weapon without some sort of tangible facts or experience to support that opinion.

Of course, I encourage you to elaborate further as I welcome the discussion and the potential that my opinion could change having read your elaborated viewpoint. My opinion has changed countless times in my life as I expect it to change countless more. I welcome any disagreement with my opinion and look forward to hearing people tell me why they disagree or agree; a discussion forum would not be interesting nor compelling if everyone thought exactly as I do on all matters.

 

[DrDrifter]

Never said you were disrespectful. Simply ask that you don't become so.
You are welcome to your views.
No apologies will be offered by me on any of my comments here.
If the pen is not for you, then it's not for you.
I keep bringing up the pen...because, after all, that's the theme of this thread.

Fair enough.

 

[Need2Know]

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/973881-Investigator-pens-investigated-briefly

 

[RDA]

My opinion is certainly open to change if given reasonable facts to support a new viewpoint. You selectively pick up on my Bic pen example, which I intentionally used to demonstrate that a pen worth pennies is just as lethal as a pen worth thousands of times more. What would you say about my key example? You almost certainly have your house and/or car keys on you as often, if not more often, than you would be carrying any type of pen. Just like the pen or pepper spray, if your keys are not in your hand when you are attacked you will have little to no chance of extracting them to use as a weapon once the attack is under way. Do you suggest walking around with the pen in your hand at all times? This would be the only way to assure you are ready to use the weapon in case of attack.

I'll keep this simple, if I take a Bic pen in my hand and stab you in your cranium versus taking my Extreme Duty pen and stab you in the cranium, I believe the metal device will cause more damage than a cheap plastic tube barely more sturdy than a plastic straw. Sure, a hurricane has proven how a piece of straw can penetrate wood if conditions are perfect. Put another way, me personally, I'd much rather be attacked by someone holding a Bic pen or even a set of keys versus a metal tactical pen if I had my choice.

I don't have to carry my gun drawn and in my hand in order to potentially defend myself. My pen can be clipped to my pocket or shirt and can be quickly and easily accessed. Even in our knife defense class in close quarter situations and role playing, we learned to draw a knife from its kydex sheath or our pocket.

 

[DrDrifter]

I'll keep this simple, if I take a Bic pen in my hand and stab you in your cranium versus taking my Extreme Duty pen and stab you in the cranium, I believe the metal device will cause more damage than a cheap plastic tube barely more sturdy than a plastic straw. Sure, a hurricane has proven how a piece of straw can penetrate wood if conditions are perfect. Put another way, me personally, I'd much rather be attacked by someone holding a Bic pen or even a set of keys versus a metal tactical pen if I had my choice.

I don't have to carry my gun drawn and in my hand in order to potentially defend myself. My pen can be clipped to my pocket or shirt and can be quickly and easily accessed. Even in our knife defense class in close quarter situations and role playing, we learned to draw a knife from its kydex sheath or our pocket.

I believe that both of your points are ones that could potentially get you KILLED, so forgive me for disagreeing with you as what I am about to explain and show you may potentially save your life. I will deal with each point you made in a separate post to keep things more organized.

In your first point, you say you'd rather have the metal device as it will cause more damage. You explain that if you were to stab me in the cranium, your metal device would cause more damage than a "cheap plastic tube". I cannot argue with this point at all. Let's have a hypothetical showdown and think through the possible outcomes. I will be using my car keys (for instance as I always have them on me) and you will be using your tactical pen, as you described above, to puncture my skull.

In order to successfully penetrate my hard cranium with your "tactical" pen, you would need to deliver a hard blow with many Newtons of force. The skull is designed to protect the brain from blows, so you need quite a bit of force to successfully penetrate it. This type of force would likely be delivered with a blow similar to a left or right hook or with an overhand attack to the top/front of my skull (stabbing downwards motion). Within 1.5 seconds, you likely will only be able to deliver one effective and powerful enough blow to penetrate my skull. Penetrating or fracturing my skull will hurt, yes, but it almost certainly would not be fatal. It would be fatal if you were lucky and struck my temple with enough force and at the right spot or if you severed my carotid artery by attacking the region around my mastoid process (do you even know where that is without looking it up?) at the right angle and spot. I think, however, the odds of either strike happening within one or two blows is very, very low if not negligible.

Meanwhile, I am using those same 1.5 seconds to attack your eyes or neck (much more lethal than eyes). As the eyes and neck are such soft targets they offer little resistance to penetration and both can be pierced with very little Newtons of force with the tip of my keys (or even my Bic pen). Given such little force required to overcome resistance, I can easily penetrate your eyes or neck by stabbing you with very short and quick jabs to the target area. Within 1.5 seconds, I can easily deliver 3-4 penetrating stabs to your neck. I can assure you that within 3-4 stabs in the general area of your carotid artery (an easy target on the neck), I can sever your carotid artery causing a fatal injury which you will VERY QUICKLY succumb to.

If you were using your "tactical" pen to stab my eyes or throat instead of trying to penetrate my skull, then using a metal pen would offer only a negligible advantage to either a key or plastic pen. It is certainly not enough of a force multiplier when compared to my rudimentary weapons of a plastic pen or metal key to provide any tactical edge and justify carrying a "tactical" pen as a self-defense weapon.

If you don't actually believe that eye or throat strikes are debilitating, have a friend demonstrate them on you. Have your friend poke you in the eye with moderate force using his thumb or finger. I can pretty much assure you it will hurt quite a bit and likely be so distracting that you cannot effectively attack or defend against an assailant who is determined to hurt you. Next have your friend LIGHTLY strike you in the throat with his hand, fist, or fingers. Please only do this LIGHTLY as even a moderate strength blow to the front of the neck can fracture a bone and sever your esophagus or windpipe, which could be potentially fatal. If your friend hit you in the front of your throat, you would certainly have a very tough time breathing and likely would fall to the ground in pain or debilitation. If your friend hit you more to the side of your neck, and struck you with even a moderate blow to the region of your carotid artery (remember it's an easy to locate target), you will blackout -- maybe momentarily maybe longer -- as the blood flow to your brain has been interrupted. You certainly will be on the ground debilitated, if not unconscious, if you were struck there with the force of a real attack.

Any debilitation, even momentarily, would be enough time for an attacker to administer a lethal strike which you'd have no chance to defend.

 

[DrDrifter]

I don't have to carry my gun drawn and in my hand in order to potentially defend myself. My pen can be clipped to my pocket or shirt and can be quickly and easily accessed. Even in our knife defense class in close quarter situations and role playing, we learned to draw a knife from its kydex sheath or our pocket.

This is by far the most fatal error you bring up. If you honestly believe what you wrote, you are in for a lethal surprise if attacked.
RE-THINK YOUR ENTIRE DEFENSIVE MINDSET WHEN CARRYING YOUR GUN OR KNIFE OR IT WILL GET YOU KILLED IN A REAL ATTACK.

If your knife or gun defense trainer is not giving you the following information about distances and reaction times, they are either grossly negligent or grossly incompetent. Either way, their "training" will only get you killed not save your life. Maybe you should reconsider paying such people any money in training fees whatsoever.

I am not the expert on being attacked with a knife, allow me to post a video from people who are trained experts who work with law enforcement on dealing with such threats. Remember the officers involved in these attacks are trained and experienced law enforcement personnel, and they ALL make fatal errors in judgement by attempting to draw their weapon with insufficient distance between themselves and the attacker. Also remember that real-life attackers would likely not openly brandish their weapon unless they were already at close range to you, in order to surprise you and not give you chance to escape or react.

[video=youtube;9igSoJHEdUo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9igSoJHEdUo[/video]

Quotes from the video:

"In fact, at close distances your only realistic option for controlling a suspect is empty hand tactics."
"Time and space work for the offender and against the officer."
"With a reactionary gap of about one foot or less, it's impossible for you to react quickly enough to even touch your holstered sidearm once the attack begins."
"At about five feet, the average officer can't even get his sidearm unholstered. Unless your sidearm or baton is already out, you'll have to rely on physical control at five feet or less."
"At about ten feet, you might get your sidearm out but you probably won't get a shot off."
"A suspect with a knife can close seven paces and deliver deadly force in less than 1.5 seconds."
"For the average officer to deliver two rounds against an attacker who starts moving at ten feet, the sidearm must already be drawn and ready to shoot."
"At about fifteen feet your chances get a little better, if you're alert, anticipate danger, and are skilled with your equipment. But to deliver two rounds, center of mass, your hand would already have to be on your sidearm when the attack begins."
"Tests with hundreds of officers reveal that, in most cases, a minimum reactionary gap of 21 feet is required to react and deliver at least two rounds and to have enough time to move out of the attacker's path."

Do you honestly feel your reaction time and training is superior to HUNDREDS of trained law enforcement personnel and that you will be more effective at defending yourself from attack than they are at close range? I certainly don't think so even though I've never met you.

Enough about training videos, here is a real-world example where several armed law enforcement personnel confronted a knife-wielding man. Despite being shot several times before finally succumbing to his injuries, the attacker manages to stab THREE of the police officers all while they are "prepared" to deal with his attack:

[video=youtube;FL1zX-SrBH0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL1zX-SrBH0[/video]

Are you still confident in your ability to draw your sidearm or knife in time to defend yourself?

Here are a couple of additional videos from ethically responsible self-defense trainers who ADMIT that even their BEST techniques are INEFFECTIVE against aggressive knife attacks. Warning, language is NSFW but the overall message should be clear... there is little time to react or defend against a determined and dynamic knife-wielding attacker.

[video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=37XiSn81oFw[/video]
[video]www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=E61jnJe_1SI[/video]

 

[김원진]

Tad bit condescending sounding :/ Ever think of having a fun chat in the prac-tac area, i think your extensive knowledge would help a lot of people there since you've trained to kill.

OP-pen is worth it:thumbup:

 

[RDA]

Tad bit condescending sounding :/ Ever think of having a fun chat in the prac-tac area, i think your extensive knowledge would help a lot of people there since you've trained to kill.

OP-pen is worth it:thumbup:

I agree, I am out. I know or have seen most all of what Dr. Death posted, I am aware of reaction times, the lethality of various weapons, the time it takes to draw, closing distances and more opportune places to attack the human body. I have no intention of addressing every point of the diatribe of regurgitated information which really didn't address my simple comments.

I'll take a metal tactical pen over a Bic pen as I originally posted.

 

[RobertK]

Love my SS pen. I suppose I could hit something with it, but I just consider it a really awesome pen.