Hitachi Shiro-gami and Ao-gami Steels

What most folks who haven't dealt with this steel don't realize is that it isn't offered in as many sizes and thicknesses as regular steels. The dimensions will also be metric.

An order will be best in only a few steel types and one or two sizes. Beyond that and we will run into the problem Mike had when he tied a group buy.
While it would be great for many makers to have a " piece" of this material, the only practical way is to order in equal size bars in no more than six sizes/types.
I would suggest that the purchaser should take orders as a "unit A" and "unit B". The folks who want in on the group order would order as many units as they want. If they want to get with a friend and share it, or sell the pieces they don't want to someone, that will be up to them. In this way the purchaser would order X number of each bar and the entire order can be shipped to the US recipient. That person would only have to bundle it into units and put a shipping tag on each flat rate box. Of course, exact sizes and types would be determined by what was available to the buyer.



If I were to suggest a fictitious order:
"unit A"
#1 white - 3.5mmX35mmX500mm
#1 white - 6mmX35mmX500mm
#2 white - 3.5mmX35mmX500mm
#2 white - 6mmX35mmX500mm

"unit B"
Suminagashi #2 white - 5.5mmX40mmX500mm
Laminated #2 white - 5.5mmX35mmX500mm

If available, the "katana" billets in #2 white core would also be great - 5.5mmX35mmX500mm. These would forge wonderful tanto and wakizashi.

petah, PM sent.
 
Stacy,

Does the #2 white really only need a temp of 1427F for austenitizing, does it require a timed hold at that temp?
Assuming austenitizing at 775C (1427F), water quench, and temper at 200C (392F) x 2 {I am assuming it gets double tempered}, what would you expect the hardness to be?
 
Today the euro fell to a two-year low against the dollar. I am thinking of ordering some steel from Dick and saving a few bucks. The savings might even cover the shipping.

Their katana steel has my interest.
 
These steels seem interesting ! in the link in
Post 24 by hengelo_77 they have japanese
Triple layered steel That caught My eye as
Well as the blue steel for 19 (euro) & the
Triple layer for 15(euro) as i want a wakizashi
so i'd like more Info and to see if there's going
To be a group buy unless i can get someone
to agree to add mine to there order !...

Frank

Ps. What is tamahagane steel ? is white,blue
Or is it totally different ?
 
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I would just order for yourself or get with a friend. As of now, there is no group buy.

You are just getting started on your first knife project, Frank, a wakizashi is a long way off. You will need a lot more experience and equipment before that stage comes.

While fancy steels sound great, the standard 1084 will make a great knife as you are learning.....and then you may still make great knives with it, as it is nearly the perfect knife steel for most non-stainless knives.
A bit more reading on the metallurgy of why a certain steel type or carbon content is desirable in making a certain type of knife or sword will help you understand what steels to pick for an advanced project....buy stick with the simpler steels for the time being.
Blue or white paper steel would not be used for a sword. They are kitchen and hunting knife steels. The laminated steels shown are for knives and tools mainly. The "katana" steel would make a good wakizashi if you are an accomplished smith and can forge such a blade.

Tagahagane is the bloom product of a smelting run in a tartara. It is an amorphous lump(s) of unalloyed steel that needs to be reduced and forged into a billet of steel. It then gets folded many times to distribute the high and low carbon pieces until it is uniform. Along the way it develops the hada that makes it so lovely. Many tagahagane blades have 1,000,000 layers due to the folding. It is not a task for anyone buy an accomplished smith, nor cheap. A tamahagane blade may have $500 or more in cost for the raw steel lumps, and several hundred more dollars in fuel and materials to forge it out. Then you may spend up to 400 hours making the blade, doing togi, and making the koshirae. That will give you a blade worth $100 to $100,000 .....depending on your skill level and abilities.
 
Thanks for the Info Stacy !
As for wanting a wakizashi
I ment made by a professional
Not myself lol maybe i should
Have made That clear ! Is That
The way they made swords in
Feudal japan ? Are there any
That still do it This way ?( I'm
Sure theres a few) im in no
Big rush to buy any steel but
Maybe 1084 & cpm154 but
Thats still a ways off !

Frank
 
Very interesting stuff here. This reminds me of my recent search for 'pure iron' that is not readily available in the US. In fact... I wonder if this is the same stuff found in these Japanese blades.. just a modern version of 'wrought iron'. But I have just found a company that will accommodate shipping to the US reasonably: http://www.legg-brothers.co.uk/

I would love to be involved with a bulk white steel purchase. And please contact me if anybody is interested in partnering up on a pure iron order. My interest in this is for low contrast high density iron/steel damascus as well as cold forging chapes and other scabbard hardware.

edit: I just saw that I didn't reach the end of this thread before posting. Anyway.. if anybody is interested in going in on either white steel or pure iron.. let me know.
 
There was an article in a German knife magazine explaining that the names blue and white paper steel comes from the colour paper they would be wrapped in when sold.
And the situation with Greece is tence at the moment. If they get kicked out of the EURO the value would plumit.
 
bladsmth said:
I really believe they are trying to keep a monopoly on it as a Japanese knife steel. The success of great makers like Takeda Hamono would be challenged if the hundreds of good US and Canadian makers had free access to this steel. The very high prices the Japanese makers get would fall drastically if competition entered the scene.
Click to expand...

The metal makers of Japan such as Hitachi Metals has been losing bodily strength in the battle with South Korea or China. They can't handle small market such as knife material enough.
How do you feel about Swedish steel like Assab K120?
 
I don't know if anyone knows the actual makeup of K-120.

All I know is that it is a proprietary powdered metal technology steel with medium carbon. It is used commercially by Hanwei, who hypes it as almost a super steel ( which it isn't). If I was to venture a guess, I would say it was PMT 1070/1075.....but that is just a SWAG. That would be a clean and evenly fine grained mid carbon steel. It would make a good sword. If it is low Mn, as I suspect, it would produce a good hamon.
 
hitachi are manufacturers and prolly mostly only sell to dealers/stockholders who buy biglumps

unless u are 'known' .. Murray is a time-served-in-Japan country smith and the official successor to his teacher

came across this tho: http://www.dglssteel.com/c16en.html a Hitachi Metals high performance and new type of tool steel

what i really find interesting is the comparison pics here: Scuffing resistance(Test result for High Tensile strength Steel) http://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/prod/prod19/p19_01.html

yup, Hitachi used D2 for comparing

i dont see stocks anywhere yet tho

Workshop Heaven in UK have some Yasuki White #2s http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/steel_billets.html
 
Hello, and sorry for ressurecting this old thread, but some ppl might be interested in this fact, as far as I can remember Boehler K510 is equivalent to white paper steel, and I think it should be easily available in the US ( I have a blade made from it by Pasi Hurttila, and finish smith, and its absolutely superb, its known in Europe as Silver Steel.
Composition:
C: 1,18 Si: 0,25 Mn: 0,30 Cr: 0,70 V: 0,1

DST
 
HT instructions (from Workshop Heaven) for the #2 laminated):
Forge at 800-900 Celsius, forge weld at 1100 Celsius using borax to flux the surfaces. After forging and grinding, cycle at 770 Celsius to relieve the mechanical tension built up in the forging process and cool slowly. Harden at 800 Celsius and quench immediately in oil or water for 20 seconds, remove from the quench and allow to finish cooling more slowly, dabbing the back of the blade on a balled up wet rag.

Temper at between 150 and 250 Celsius to relieve the hardness to between RC64 and RC59 respectively.
 
The heat treat seems pretty basic, but it says the blade should be shaped and ground prior to heat treat. I wonder if this steel will allow you to go smaller the .030 at the edge for hardening.
And this is a little different:Grinding
It is very important to avoid temperatures above 150°C once it has been hardened and annealed. Grinding the steel on a dry sharpening machine or
belt sander is especially harmful its crystalline structure. We recommend using a water-cooled sharpening machine or sharpening by hand using
Japanese waterstones. I wonder if you can use a belt grinder if you keep cool in ice water dunking in between passes.?
 
That is standard for any high carbon steel. Don't let it get above 300F when grinding. Because a very thin edge can jump several hundred degrees in a half second, it isn't all that easy to avoid overheating the edge. Wet grinding on a wheel or using water stones is the standard way to finish these steels after HT.

The blade can be pre-shaped and sanded to 400 grit, with an edge between .020 and .030. Get much thinner and the edge may warp or crack.....especially if doing a water/brine quench.
 
When I work with 1084 I like to grind to about .010 then but the entire edge on with 200 grit silicon carbide stone, then move on up through the grits to finish with a 1000 grit stone.This method produces a quality edge with no chance of micro tempering or burning the edge.
 
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