Home Stabilizing Techniques?

A thousand years from now its going to puzzle the hell outta the folks that dig up all these pieces of perfectly good wood with a piece of crusty rust in between.
 
Rovert said:
remember there's a fan in the microwave that ventilates the chamber, so I don't understand where the notion of vapor concentrations enough to explode the thing are coming from.

Disclaimer: What I do want to say is that you need to do this at your own risk. I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but common sense prevails. Don't blame me if you blow yourself up. :eek:
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well,, :confused: I'm thinking the vapors are coming from inside and then to the fan :confused: :rolleyes: :D
haha you're killing me :D then you have the Disclaimer with common sense :D

air to fuel ratio at 14:1 with one spark is about the most efficient bomb you could make.
 
LOL!

Well there, Dan... if you see a human missle zooming by at Mach 3 with a piece of fizzing ebony in one hand, and a microwave door in the other, you can tell me 'ya told me so. :D

Seriously, I just don't see the vapor concentrations becoming that high, nor has it been a problem as of yet. key word there being: Yet :eek:
 
Go for it Rovert.
This month I've set my sock on fire with a saw, caught my beard on fire using a heat gun (Don't ask) :o , cut the hell out of my finger in a flapping disk that I was too lazy to change and dropped a vise on my leg pulling It around on the bench........

what's a little explosion in the name of research! :footinmou
 
Heh... well, as I'm fond of saying lately: Ya' gotta die of somethin'. Although I can't wait to hear why you were gluing your beard. :confused:
 
The steps that paintfool described using a jar in a pot is exactly the procedure used when canning pickles in jars. You don't have to pour the hot water in the pot, you can do it on a stove or one of these fish/turkey frying setups. Just don't heat too fast and when you remove the jar from the hot water, don't sit it on anything cold. Once removed from the hot water, tighten the lid down good and when it cools, it will form a vaccum.
 
Walt2 said:
The steps that paintfool described using a jar in a pot is exactly the procedure used when canning pickles in jars. You don't have to pour the hot water in the pot, you can do it on a stove or one of these fish/turkey frying setups. Just don't heat too fast and when you remove the jar from the hot water, don't sit it on anything cold. Once removed from the hot water, tighten the lid down good and when it cools, it will form a vaccum.
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the idea of the vacuum in the first place is for it to pull the stuff in once you release and let pressure do it's job, if you keep it in a vacuum state, what have you done? the Vacuum can't work for you efficiently
if you wait and let the pores plug up,, with time passing and then you'd have wasted the heat up..a vacuum then into a pressure cooker would work very nice.

Rovert take a lighter to the fan while it's working maybe you'll prove me wrong, I hope so :( but I want to use your disclaimer.. :eek: ;)
 
I'm not real sure the microwave is the safest around acetone. Acetone is really volatile, as it evaporated so readily. It doesn't take a high concentration to reach the lower explosive limit, and I think running it through a fan that has brushes in it which are creating small little sparks might not be too swift.

Howard
 
Well, guys, I don't claim to have all the answers. Just questions. So for the sake of posterity, let's kick around some ideas.

Mason jars in pots of water near an OPEN FLAME? Now, THAT'S what I call dangerous. You have flammable vapor in a high concentration undiluted and undistributed by air movement near an open burner. Yet since thousands of people have used this technique successfully over the years, I tend to think that a microwave with diluted airflow and NO open flame is the safer bet.

As to acetone, my understanding is that it has a HIGHER boiling point than water, therefore is actually safer to use than turpentine or other solvents. I'm not sure where I read that, or whether I understood it correctly, but it sticks in my head.

Rovert take a lighter to the fan while it's working maybe you'll prove me wrong, I hope so but I want to use your disclaimer
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Dan, look at the bright side of it. I've either stumbled on a very competent and effective home stabilizing method, or I'll have the first AC powered home-made thermo-nuclear missile. :eek: But in either case, please feel free to experiment with my disclaimer at your convenience.
 
Rovert, acetone boils substantially lower then water at 133F. You can read the MSDS here:

http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/MSAcetone.html


The obvious problem using Minwax wood hardener or other liquids like Nelsonite is that they are solids dissolved in a solvent. That means that they cannot be effectively pore-filling. Often they are only 30% or less solids. Thus, when the pores are filled and subsequently dried, the most solids the voids can contain is 30% of the space after the solvent evaporates. This may work well for woods that don't have the gaps but not for larger voids that are common in some burlwoods; it is not gap-filling. The pros use acrylic monomers or partial polymers that are "neat" liquids, no solvents. These Loctite methacrylates and other polymers are very expensive, and thus the highest part of the stabilizing cost. After impregnation they are often spritzed with a peroxide initiator to catalyze polymerization to a solid. The zit-juice Oxynol 9 from the drugstore contains a suitable peroxide.

The solvent that is used in "home" versions can also present some drying difficulties, especially if it is a high-boiling solvent like xylene. Before I got a vacuum pump, I soaked a block of myrtle in Nelsonite. It penetrated excellently without any "assistance". I then let it air dry for two weeks before I made the handle. There was still a VERY strong-smelling xylene residue. I had to dry it for several days under vacuum to get rid of that smell. The Nelsonite seemed to provide excellent water-repelling. Time will tell if it provides dimensional stability. Perhaps Darren or others would comment on that, please?
 
These Loctite methacrylates and other polymers are very expensive, and thus the highest part of the stabilizing cost. After impregnation they are often spritzed with a peroxide initiator to catalyze polymerization to a solid.
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Uh.... wanna say that again... in ENGLISH???? ;)

I guess I misunderstood the point about acetone's boiling at a higher temperature than water. But in any event, I went ahead and tried 4 more blocks of ebony with Minwax Poly and acetone mixed roughly 50/50 and nuked for various times.

In any event, I still don't think that this method is any worse than heating solvent in a pot over an open flame then sealing it, with the possibility that it might actually help dry the wood beforehand.

Keep those cards and letters comin' folks. In the meantime, I'll keep a lookout for mason jars and lids.
 
OK,Time I weigh in on this one again.
FIRST: Listen to Fitzo.He's right about the resins.Wood 'stabilizers' and hardeners are NOT suitable for stabilizing handle wood.Take a block of balsa wood and try it.It will never be usable.With true acrylic stabilization it will be as good as cocobola.
SECOND: I was a research chemist for Virginia Chemicals Co.(Formerly Va. Smelting) ,Acetone is very volitile and flamable,BP= 133F.With a very low vapor pressure it will be explosive in any air mix from about 5:1 to 30:1.After the chemical industry tanked in the 1970's ,I installed and modified radar for the US Govt..A microwave oven set on low runs at the same output as on high.It just cycles on and off.The relay that turns tha magnetron on and off creates a spark with each on off cycle.At the low setting that is about five to seven ignition pulses per minuite.That plus any metalic fiber (like an iron filing from your fingers)could create a corona arc and,well..........You remember the coyote?
I HOPE THIS IS ENOUGH TO DISCOURAGE ANYONE FROM DOING THIS!The boiling water in a pan is safe because you boil the water IN THE HOUSE and pour it in the pan OUTSIDE.DO NOT PUT THE WATER PAN ON A TURKEY FRYER OR OPEN FLAME!!!!The acetone will ignite violently.
Bladesmithing was once a dying art.We ,however,don't need to kill ouselves off!!!
 
Rovert,I'll give you an old vacuum pump and bell jar if you promise to NEVER do this again.I'm only a half days drive away.SERIOUSLY,PLEASE don't continue doing this.It is about the same as checking the gas tank with a match.Sooner or later it WILL ignite.
 
when I was talking about the mason jar, you don't have it anywhere near an open flame... u can set it up anywhere, get an old pot that u can punch a small hole in the bottom so the boiling water will slowly drain as u run back to the stove to grab the next pot of boiling water to dump in/on it. I would probably have this set up in the back yard away from the stove or any other spark :p

If I can find the site where I read this, or maybe the guy who made the tutorial is reading and could post some to clarify.

what about using an electric hot plate?? u can use that on really low temps, wouldn't really have to worry about sparks? get it hot enough that it's just about to boil, tighten the lid and let it cool slowly? that's my idea for now, at least till someone tells me I'm crazy again.... :D :D :D
 
You remember the coyote?
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Hey... yeah, but he always came back in the next cartoon, right???

Ok, you convinced me. It just didn't seem too bad an idea at the time, and I was running the microwave out in the garage, just in case.

Looks like I'm back to mason jars and vacuum pumps. Where do we get the "real stuff" for stabilizing? I just don't do enough volume to warrant sending it out for a pro job. Uh... and since we're on the subject of vacuum pumps, let's be clear - that's PRO job to you wiseguys out there. :eek: :D
 
A hot plate has a temperature control.It creates a spark when turning on and off.Yes it is less dangerous than an open flame - In the same way juggeling bowie knives is less dangerous than juggeling chain saws.The hot water jacket you described is the only safe thing in this thread!!Keep the flame at least 30 feet from acetone.
 
Dan Gray said:
a vacuum then into a pressure cooker would work very nice.
;)
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good Idea ;)
Rovert read that again please

"a vacuum then into a pressure cooker "
pressure cookers are sealed up to a curtain pressure
I should have mention that My stove is an ele glass top,

also you can cold boil acetone with about 27.5 inchs of vacume
if that's a good word for it.. :confused:
 
This has been kicked around for some time. Tom Lewis needs to step in here and tell us his latest opinion on Resinol from the thread here:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270155&highlight=resinol

I've experimented with Minwax and have found wood is perfectly willing to move after being treated with it. Which, to me, isn't worth the effort.
PEG (poly-ethylyn glycol) is often brought up and it isn't suitable. PEG is a waxy kinda stuff that many carvers and wood turners use to treat green wood from cracking by basically making the wood a greasy mess. :rolleyes:

A polymer that fills the wood cell like Resinol is probably the only way to get wood or bone stabilized like the pro's.
 
Stacy,

I might hurt myself forging by hand and since you are trying to save people from hurting themselves................... a hydraulic press would sure help me out :)
 
No,in Marks case it would probably be a dangerous thing to have a press.He would most likely make a die to reload his rifle and shotgun shells on it.Mark - I think 28 tons is a bit too much for the primer ram.
 
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