How about a permanent monthly fitness skills thread?

[harkamus]

A lot less refined of a way of putting things there, Vec, but I couldn't agree more.

It's just that these guys already seem pretty set on what they want to do, which is more than many people out there. At least they have some kind of motivation. You try to change someone's routine that fast and they'll likely lose some motivation. I hate to say it, but you live and you learn. Personally, there's no way in hell I'm swinging shit (kettle bells) either way. That just invites momentum (and injury). If you know a bit about human anatomy and joint structure, you'll know that swinging things like kettlebells puts your joint in a very compromised position. Can we say hello crepitus and hello joint replacement surgery?

 

[vector001]

A lot less refined of a way of putting things there, Vec, but I couldn't agree more.

yeah, i don't get accused of being too delicate too often.

i've just seen too many good folks get hurt, when they didn't get an early reality check. i'd rather get yelled at than see somone tear their knees out from under them, or hurt their back and lose work time because of it, while i saw what was going to happen and sat still. i've tried it both ways.

i reckon that if delicacy worked, folks wouldn't ignore it in the first place.

It's just that these guys already seem pretty set on what they want to do, which is more than many people out there. At least they have some kind of motivation. You try to change someone's routine that fast and they'll likely lose some motivation. I hate to say it, but you live and you learn. Personally, there's no way in hell I'm swinging shit (kettle bells) either way. That just invites momentum (and injury). If you know a bit about human anatomy and joint structure, you'll know that swinging things like kettlebells puts your joint in a very compromised position. Can we say hello crepitus and hello joint replacement surgery?

i'm just trying not to grind too much tooth enamel, brother....

hope the guys know how to use ice and heat.

so much needless re-constructive surgery done because brethren ripped a ligament right off an anchor point, with the bone surface along with it sometimes, because they didn't have foundations.

as a Corpsman i saw those guys in the gym, and i saw them on the table when we were putting them back together - the whole cycle....

it doesn't get much more personal than that.

being a great trainer is one thing, but when you have to hold clamps inside of their body because they didn't do what you told them to do, it starts getting a little rough, and maybe you will form some stronger opinions about the do's and don't's, brethren.

i've done medical illustration, X-Rays, CT Scans, Nuclear Medicine, treated injuries, mine and others, due to training and operational hazards, been a military PT instructor, i was a Marine before i was a Sailor, and just gotten in a lot of trouble for a long time - i have even had to correct doctors on anatomy identification (and i don't think my skills are particularly good, just so many folks neglect to learn this stuff and take care of themselves) ...so very respectfully, i think the money is on my advice for the folks that have let themselves get fat especially.

combat injuries can't be helped, but stubborness and idiocy should be punishable, and it often is, in the form of reconstructive surgery and money lost, if not permanent disability.

not trying to be mean here, just laying it down like i have seen it.

i care. i wish i didn't.

vec

 

[koyote]

You won't lose muscle, even on 800 calories a day, if you do resistance training. I'll have to dig up the study link, but it's true. (I'm NOT recommending 800 calories a day, at least not for more than a one week boost once in a while*)

Eat less. do more. Hacky sack is a decent physical therapy tool and you can't really claim that the legs are small muscle groups- how much energy and efoort and acrobatics you put in matters a lot. I wouldn't recommend running as good cardio if you carry much over 15-20% body fat in a male.

Hell, if you want to blast your cardio, do a VO2Max protocol- 15 seconds of snatches with a kettlebell (that's 7 or 8 reps) with a 15 second rest. repeat 20 to 60 times depending on your ability. That's cardio! Just because the weight is steel instead of your torso hammering on your legs doesn't make it not (In all fairness, it's also NOT circuit training)

Whatever any of us are doing, doing it is more important than not doing it and trying to find the perfect things to do.

Cutting sugars and portion sizes, exercising more- and very importantly- tracking it. Maybe for someone walking from the desk around the house one time CAN induce a sweat. That's a workout. It won't be for long if you do it 10 times a day.




* There's research that indicates that the level where your body starts going "oh no, famine!" is actually tied to the body fat percentage and that for every pound of fat you can reduce your 'diet level' calorie intake by about 50 kcal per day.

 

[koyote]

It's just that these guys already seem pretty set on what they want to do, which is more than many people out there. At least they have some kind of motivation. You try to change someone's routine that fast and they'll likely lose some motivation. I hate to say it, but you live and you learn. Personally, there's no way in hell I'm swinging shit (kettle bells) either way. That just invites momentum (and injury). If you know a bit about human anatomy and joint structure, you'll know that swinging things like kettlebells puts your joint in a very compromised position. Can we say hello crepitus and hello joint replacement surgery?

Nope, can't say it.

Seriously, the rate of injury with kettlebells is lower with decent form than any other weighted exercises. There's a lot of reasons for this, but remember that the swing motion is really more of a deadlift motion and the snatch is even less of a swing. Wacth some of the kettlebell jugglers on youtube and try to figure out exactly how much of a 'swing' it can be if you can hit a zero gee point at the top and flip the KB around.

The TGU (getups) are a static press and a very good and safe full workout motion. Presses are presses- though theres a few advantages you can get in ensuring proper form with a KB over a dumbell. windmills are windmills, rows are rows. Deadlifts are...dealifts. Kettlebells are much lighter than most people use in other types of weight training systems, and you work on a heavier cardio level in general, as well.

 

[koyote]

so much needless re-constructive surgery done because brethren ripped a ligament right off an anchor point, with the bone surface along with it sometimes, because they didn't have foundations.


vec

And how many of those people ripped tendons with a 35 pound weight?

Seriously, I've gotten RID of carpal sysmptoms, increased by ROM, reduced all my existing joint issues- I'm really not seeing the insane danger of kettlebells.

There's a small caveat to that- bad form is BAD FORM- and if you aren't pinching your cheeks, activating your glutes, keeping your back and abs tight, you can lift stupid.

 

[hushnel]

i've just seen too many good folks get hurt, when they didn't get an early reality check. i'd rather get yelled at than see somone tear their knees out from under them, or hurt their back and lose work time because of it, while i saw what was going to happen and sat still. i've tried it both ways.

I guess I'm pretty lucky, I've broken so many joints and bones over my insane life that there was no way in hades that I was going to do any exercise more aggressive than walking and upping my general activity until I knocked off some of the 264 pounds I started with. I realize how lame it is now to get so far out of shape and I have no excuses, I was a bad man, I was consumed with getting off of drugs and alcohol, I didn't care what I looked like or felt like anything was better than alcoholism and drug abuse. But that was 15 years ago and I've been loving life. I realized that I was actually going to retire in 3 years, with a decent pension and an overwhelming urge to get into shape and hit retirement running came over me, to be able to enjoy what I've worked towards for so many years and for as long as I can. Hunting, fishing, boating, motorcycle riding all of these are better when you ain't lugging around 80 pounds of extra fat, it don't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

So about 4 months back I started the whole over 50 physical thing, saw all my doctors, had all the sick probes, so the Doc. is looking at my test numbers and says, I can't believe you don't take any medication, all your number are perfect, every thing even the evil probe turned out excellent, he told me he doesn't have any patients my age, 56, that don't take some kind of meds. Anyhow I got the OK from him to up my exercise a bit so slowly I'm ramping up. I spent 11 months getting from 264 to 198 and I've about another 15 or so to go.

 

[harkamus]

You won't lose muscle, even on 800 calories a day, if you do resistance training. I'll have to dig up the study link, but it's true. (I'm NOT recommending 800 calories a day, at least not for more than a one week boost once in a while*)

You will lose muscle mass if your daily caloric intake is 800 calories IF that amount is lower than what you used to eat prior to exercise. No amount of weight lifting is gonna offset that. You don't build muscle out of scratch. You need calories to build muscle. That is why you can't build and lose muscle at the same time. You'll make muscle to the point that 800 calories a day allows you to, that is AFTER the rest of the calories gets allocated to fundamental cellular processes. If there is any surplus afterwards, those calories will get used for other things, maybe building muscle if you do resistance training. But wait a minute...you need energy to actually drive your lift, so subtract more calories from that (remember, carbs will be the fuel source for anaerobic activity. 1 gram carb = 4 cals). Now, if by chance, you finished exercising with weights and you still have calories left over...that *may* go into building muscle IF you have calories left over from repairing the torn muscle spindle fibers. If you don't, you're either gonna at best repair the damage you did and not gain or lose muscle, or at worst lose muscle mass because there are insufficient calories to fully repair the damage.

You don't build muscle if your caloric intake is less than what the body needed. To build muscle, you need to spike the caloric intake...not by much, but you still have to increase it.

1 pound of muscle = 2500 - 3500 calories depending on what textbook you're reading out of. You want to pack an extra pound of muscle, go spike your caloric intake for the week to have an increased 2500 - 3500 calories. You will gain one pound in that week. Is it all muscle? Depends on what you did.

And how many of those people ripped tendons with a 35 pound weight?

Seriously, I've gotten RID of carpal sysmptoms, increased by ROM, reduced all my existing joint issues- I'm really not seeing the insane danger of kettlebells.

There's a small caveat to that- bad form is BAD FORM- and if you aren't pinching your cheeks, activating your glutes, keeping your back and abs tight, you can lift stupid.

I see I can put some of my biomechanics background into practice. 35 pounds of weight is actually 155.9 newtons of force. Factor in the rotation of the movement and the amount of torque that's being produced sky rockets. You may think 35 pounds (155.9 newtons) is light weight, but the amount of force acting on the axis of rotation (your shoulder joint) is a lot higher.

 

[Vivi]

Before I say anything else I just want to congratulate everyone posting in this thread. It makes me happy to see so many here working on this, no matter what shape you're currently in. The desire to improve one's condition says good things about a pesons mental health IMO.

That said...I'll play. I have a good start because I've never gone more than 3 days or so in my life without being active since I've ben old enough to run around.

Age: 23
Height: 6'4
Weight: 200
Pants: 34 x 34

My exercise varies from season to season, because when it's warm enough I skateboard and play disc golf constantly. Disc golf is mainly just walking around, with a bit of right arm exercise, but skateboarding is damn good leg conditioning and trains your balance and mental attitude well.

Currently with half a foot of snow on the ground my exercise routine is this:

3 day a week (MWF) HIT routine at the YMCA with my lifting buddy. He knows a lot about this stuff and designs us routine to work through, a different one every 6 weeks to keep things interesting. I add lifts here and there as needed to train a muscle as much as I need. I've seen huge gains in raw strength on a variety of lifts, so I'm satisfied these programs are working.

I go for 2-4 mile walks daily. Lately I've been jogging daily too.

Every off day (S,T,TH,S) I spend some time doing a few situps, pushups, leg lifts and dips, all without weight so it's not shredding my muscles so much I won't be fresh for workout days, just do a light basic routine to keep myself moving.

Punching bag a minimum of 15 minutes daily.

One thing I have gotten very good at is portion control and understanding the effect of hunger on me. I started off using a system I heard Billy Gibbs talking about with Terry Gross on NPR about how as a former fat guy he lost the weight and keeps it off. It's rather simple really, he eats half of what he normally or used to eat. When the food is brought to him at a restaurant and the sever asks "Anything else" he says yes, please bring me a to go bag and he divides the food before he starts eating.

I recently started doing this and I agree 100% it's a great idea. I have a very strong focus on nutrition, strict ideas of what I will and won't eat. Lately I've been cooking the same amounts but eating half and saving half for later. I am trying my best to never eat until I'm full, period. I'm trying to eat small amounts spread throughout the day, and eating only what I need to recover from workouts and feel nourished, no more. I find anything past that just makes it tougher to digest, weighs me down, makes me feel lethargic and increases the risk of clogging up the toilet

My diet is based around leans meats and a variety of vegetables, with fruits, nuts and seeds for snacks and very small amounts of breads / grains here and there. From what I know this is what our digestive system is best developed for. I'm constantly evolving my diet as I learn more about nutrition (Feel free to criticize my lists!) A small sampling of things I do / don't eat:

Never consume:

Candy, pop, alcohol and other drugs, fast food, deep fried anything, anything with artificial flavors or colorings or preservatives, oily foods or anything cooked in oil, butter pork and milk (More a personal choice than dietary), more than a pinch of salt, chips, popcorn, coffee or caffeine in general, medicine of any sort unless absolutely necessary (My body takes care of itself pretty well), any sort of unnatural protein supplements, cheese, anything with high fructose corn syrup or refined sugars, bleached flours, artificial sweeteners like splenda....

Will consume as needed:

Chicken, turkey, fish, shrimp, lean high quality beef, eggs, soy milk, most fruits and veggies, large variety of seeds and nuts, water, juices made from 100% juice not from concentrate, peanut almond and cashew butter, whole wheat bread with an ingredients list containing less than 10 items (Rarely), oats, barley....

Will make exceptions when needed. For example if my girlfriends mom invites me to dinner and makes lasagna with cheese, I wouldn't refuse it. But I never use cheese on dinners I cook myself.

I find these lists easy to follow, and do so by choice not compulsion, because by eating small amounts of quality foods I feel my best. I get nothing out of pop and candy, bread doesn't really fulfill my cravings it just makes my belly feel bloated, and I've never felt a need for things like caffeine or "energy boosts," or "comfort" medicines like aspirin, sleep aids etc. (Not criticizing those that take them, everyone's body is different. I might see this differently when I'm 75 years old).

In addition to training strength and endurance, and trying to keep a good diet, I try to keep my mind active and healthy. I try to avoid negative situations when possible, stay away from TV and heavy doses of the news etc. Try to read at least something that makes me think daily, study some kind of subject I'm weak on etc. Also like to read The Bible and meditate daily to help keep my mind focused on important things.

I think the most important thing one can do is try.

 

[koyote]

You will lose muscle mass if your daily caloric intake is 800 calories IF that amount is lower than what you used to eat prior to exercise. No amount of weight lifting is gonna offset that. You don't build muscle out of scratch. You need calories to build muscle.

I need to be very precisely clear. You stated a belief about muscle LOSS, I said that you could avoid muscle loss with some resistance training, even on an 800 calorie a day diet. I didn't state that you could build muscle mass on that.

A study took 20 people and put them on an 800 calorie per day diet for 12 weeks. 10 people did the low calorie diet and resistance training
only & 10 people did the low calorie diet with cardio only.

The cardio group lost lean body mass, the reistance training did not.

There's a huge fear and mythology about a calorie deficit causing weight loss that is loss of muscle mass. the rate varies in literature I've read from as little as 1 pound a month to 5 pounds a week where people start trotting out the 'famine muscle loss' scare.

Very simple, you can lose fat, have a calorie deficit, and maintain muscle mass.

 

[koyote]

I see I can put some of my biomechanics background into practice. 35 pounds of weight is actually 155.9 newtons of force. Factor in the rotation of the movement and the amount of torque that's being produced sky rockets. You may think 35 pounds (155.9 newtons) is light weight, but the amount of force acting on the axis of rotation (your shoulder joint) is a lot higher.

You have to do swings, learn the mechanics, to understand why this is wrong. it's a ballistic deadlift, there simply isn't that much rotational outward force. I don't know how to explain it to someone who hasn't done them. But you need to think of it as a deadlift to pull, or a deadlift to snatch, rather than a circular swing. It just isn't hard on the joints.

I'll totally listen if you go through a course with an RKC instructor, do a week or three of a set beginning kettlebell progression - say the program minimum in Enter The Kettlebell, and can show me (and a fair number of doctors who I'll paste the arguments over to) how this is unsafe.

I don't want to turn this thread into a "everything you do except what I say and what my teachers approve of is wrong" situation. That was my fear from the start.

I have done 800 calorie days for a week, I have swung a kettlebell thousands of times. Hushnel has dramatically reduced his calorie intake- riley does swings constantly. Hell, C_Kyle's workout regimen is to my eyes a recipe for dramatic overtraining. But we all are getting good results, without injury or crashing. It's obvious we can't oversimplify- many paths will reach the goal.

 

[RescueRiley]

Some good stuff here Boys...
Drive by trucker
I will offer this to in response to your answer but I donl;t know if is what you are looking for..When running at a fixed pace, you heart rate will reach a particular point and than maintain, fluctuating very little while continuing your pace.. what that rate is determines the effect that the excercise you're performing has on your body...
For example say an individual of a certain age and fitness level has a pulse is normally 70 beats per minute.. if you start jogging a 10 minute mile your heat rate maybe goes up to 120 (depending on individual factors) age, weight, he might at that point be in a fat burning zone... If he however ups the anty and pics up the pace and gets his heart rate up to 160 He will be in a Cardio training zone (This is individual specific)

I know When I run I maintain a heart rate that is muich higher than when I play hacky sack so the cardio vascular results are better.

Fighting Ninjas on the other hand you are moving in response to your partners therefore your heart rate will fluctuate between periods of super intensity and low points between action all for short bursts. This is Like intervals training or a period of sustained moderate activity pereiodically interrupted with bursts of intense activity. these can be done with any excercise and are imho probably the best bang for the buck way to train yourself cardivascularly.
The key to all of this is to determine your max heartrate the general loose formula for this is 220 minus your age.... the number you get will be your maximum heart rate ( you never want to hit that ..but you might want tot aylor your routines so that you can work within given percentages to obtain specific results.. More can be gleaned easily of the net.
As always consult a physicican with before you begin any excercise regimine.

 

[hushnel]

many paths will reach the goal.

Absolutely, and it's my main reason for hanging in this thread, I have nothing to offer in the way of building strength and endurance, as I've mentioned before but I feel that for every one of us as individuals there is a way to achieve our goals. With many ideas and discussions the logic of what may or will work for us will evolve into solid accomplishments.

I hope to learn how to customize an exercise regiment for myself by picking and choosing then trying ideas that will be laid out in this thread.

I have smashed my right knee, it works, it has plenty of strength but I have to be careful of not twisting it, I've broken my lower back and my neck, they have healed and cause very little trouble for me but I have partially paralysed my right arm by about 7o% and the radial head of the right elbow has been removed. My major concern about many traditional exercises is my asymmetry. I fear if I don't work in accordance with my strong and weak side I could become out of balance, if my strong side unproportionally develops over the weak side I have concerns that I could actually hurt myself, especially my neck and back just doing simple things of everyday tasks, I could be totally wrong I don't know, I'm here to gain knowledge of what the possibilities are for my improvement. In my ignorance I feel that a tai chi type stretch and endurance type of movement along with some yoga to stay limber and build up a much different type of strength than most of you athletic "strong like bear" dudes are talking about

 

[vector001]

I guess I'm pretty lucky, I've broken so many joints and bones over my insane life that there was no way in hades that I was going to do any exercise more aggressive than walking and upping my general activity until I knocked off some of the 264 pounds I started with. I realize how lame it is now to get so far out of shape and I have no excuses, I was a bad man, I was consumed with getting off of drugs and alcohol, I didn't care what I looked like or felt like anything was better than alcoholism and drug abuse. But that was 15 years ago and I've been loving life. I realized that I was actually going to retire in 3 years, with a decent pension and an overwhelming urge to get into shape and hit retirement running came over me, to be able to enjoy what I've worked towards for so many years and for as long as I can. Hunting, fishing, boating, motorcycle riding all of these are better when you ain't lugging around 80 pounds of extra fat, it don't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

So about 4 months back I started the whole over 50 physical thing, saw all my doctors, had all the sick probes, so the Doc. is looking at my test numbers and says, I can't believe you don't take any medication, all your number are perfect, every thing even the evil probe turned out excellent, he told me he doesn't have any patients my age, 56, that don't take some kind of meds. Anyhow I got the OK from him to up my exercise a bit so slowly I'm ramping up. I spent 11 months getting from 264 to 198 and I've about another 15 or so to go.

sounds like you are a smart man, taking it all at a sane pace, brother.

previous mistakes aren't bad at all if you learn from them and don't repeat them.

vec

 

[vector001]

Absolutely, and it's my main reason for hanging in this thread, I have nothing to offer in the way of building strength and endurance, as I've mentioned before but I feel that for every one of us as individuals there is a way to achieve our goals. With many ideas and discussions the logic of what may or will work for us will evolve into solid accomplishments.

I hope to learn how to customize an exercise regiment for myself by picking and choosing then trying ideas that will be laid out in this thread.

I have smashed my right knee, it works, it has plenty of strength but I have to be careful of not twisting it, I've broken my lower back and my neck, they have healed and cause very little trouble for me but I have partially paralysed my right arm by about 7o% and the radial head of the right elbow has been removed. My major concern about many traditional exercises is my asymmetry. I fear if I don't work in accordance with my strong and weak side I could become out of balance, if my strong side unproportionally develops over the weak side I have concerns that I could actually hurt myself, especially my neck and back just doing simple things of everyday tasks, I could be totally wrong I don't know, I'm here to gain knowledge of what the possibilities are for my improvement. In my ignorance I feel that a tai chi type stretch and endurance type of movement along with some yoga to stay limber and build up a much different type of strength than most of you athletic "strong like bear" dudes are talking about

i'd swim if i were you.

vec

 

[beef]

I need to be very precisely clear. You stated a belief about muscle LOSS, I said that you could avoid muscle loss with some resistance training, even on an 800 calorie a day diet. I didn't state that you could build muscle mass on that.

A study took 20 people and put them on an 800 calorie per day diet for 12 weeks. 10 people did the low calorie diet and resistance training
only & 10 people did the low calorie diet with cardio only.

The cardio group lost lean body mass, the reistance training did not.

There's a huge fear and mythology about a calorie deficit causing weight loss that is loss of muscle mass. the rate varies in literature I've read from as little as 1 pound a month to 5 pounds a week where people start trotting out the 'famine muscle loss' scare.

Very simple, you can lose fat, have a calorie deficit, and maintain muscle mass.

Even bodybuilders lose SOME muscle during the cutting phase of their training.

 

[harkamus]

I need to be very precisely clear. You stated a belief about muscle LOSS, I said that you could avoid muscle loss with some resistance training, even on an 800 calorie a day diet. I didn't state that you could build muscle mass on that.

A study took 20 people and put them on an 800 calorie per day diet for 12 weeks. 10 people did the low calorie diet and resistance training
only & 10 people did the low calorie diet with cardio only.

The cardio group lost lean body mass, the reistance training did not.

There's a huge fear and mythology about a calorie deficit causing weight loss that is loss of muscle mass. the rate varies in literature I've read from as little as 1 pound a month to 5 pounds a week where people start trotting out the 'famine muscle loss' scare.

Very simple, you can lose fat, have a calorie deficit, and maintain muscle mass.

I will believe this study IF they used a muscle biopsy to check the results or a DEXA scan...anything else is just inaccurate. And then I will eat my words and humbly bow. I have no problems being humble...hey that itself can lead to increasing knowledge. I just really don't believe it. And, I'm not cynical. I'm scientific. I'm in and out of the lab.

Regarding that fear and mythology about losing muscle mass, we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[hushnel]

Ain't science those guys that say bumble bees can't fly

I'm joking of course.

i'd swim if i were you.

I can kind of do a breast stroke, the Australian Crawl and Butterfly are out of it. I'm good with flippers and a spear gun

I'm not too far from the bays and ocean but the fresh waters around here are full of gators.

 

[C_Kyle]

Hell, C_Kyle's workout regimen is to my eyes a recipe for dramatic overtraining. But we all are getting good results, without injury or crashing. It's obvious we can't oversimplify- many paths will reach the goal.

It does seem like over training a bit. I feel fine, though. If you look at the weight I'm using for the endurance workouts, it's light-medium. I much prefer the strength workouts, because they're less complicated. The problem is, I'm not that strong.

Oh, I finally managed to perform an ab exercise that was a smoker. It's straight leg lifts, which I normally do, but lifting my legs high, to chest level.

I think my favorite exercises are dumbbell flys, high leg lifts, and the bench step ups. I can't do lunges, my left knee will fall apart. So, I do the bench step ups, and they are a real smoker.

 

[HawGorn]

I wouldn't call it fat loss, but I see what you're saying. You're gonna be losing body weight over all, which includes fat, but also muscle.

The end result may be some form of fat loss, but IF the main source of energy was also fat, you're burning fat at a higher rate. After that bout is over, you're still gonna burn fat regardless if the glycogen stores are filling or not, for up to 24 hours according to the ACSM. So in the end, with cardio, you use fat for energy (meaning that fat gets burned), but after the session is over, you're still burning fat to a degree. This is all opposed to just burning fat while the glycogen stores fill up. You burn more fat with cardio. Weight loss will come either way, regardless which kind of exercise mode you fit. It's still something we consider in exercise prescription.

You seem to be arguing that it is important to use fat as a fuel during exercise to lose fat (as in dropping weight in the form of fat)? If that is the case, then you are wrong.

It does not matter how you create a decifit, as long as there is a decifit at the end of the day. A 700cal decifit is a 700cal deficit.

And regarding the EPOC
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/research-review-effects-of-exercise-intensity-and-duration-on-the-excess-post-exercise-oxygen-consumption.html

Generally speaking, for overweight and obese individuals (and the two are not clinically the same), we want to target the fat predominantly as opposed to just losing body weight.

Well that's a given. It's not many who will want to lose muscle mass.

Just speaking for weight loss, yes, its all about calories. Put your body in a caloric deficit (through decreased food intake or exercise or both) and you will lose weight (and muscle).

It's allways about calories, or the deficit to be exact. It does NOT make any difference how that deficit came to be, be it aerobic exercise, lifting, or cutting down on food intake. If in deficit, you WILL lose weight. Your protein intake and training (that is heavy lifting) will dictate what you will lose. Lots of protein and heavy lifting, you'll lose mostly fat and keep the muscle, IF you aren't doing absurdly stupid stuff or too much of anything (be it lifting or aerobic exercise).

That does nothing for the former fat persons sad heart condition. There are people that look healthy that aren't healthy, like many bodybuilders for example. You can look healthy but your heart might not be just because you're now at a healthy weight.

If one has heart condititon, then it's a totally another game. I assumed we are talking about healthy population.

Also, a pound of muscle burns around 40 extra calories. Pack on 10 pounds and that's 400 additional calories. That's substantial if you ask me.

Newer data says around 6cals/lb, so additional ten pounds don't add anything. Sorry, don't have the spesifics at hand.
*Edit, I think it was this:
-McClave SA, Snider HL. Dissecting the energy needs of the body. Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2001 Mar;4(2):143-7.

 

[HawGorn]

I need to be very precisely clear. You stated a belief about muscle LOSS, I said that you could avoid muscle loss with some resistance training, even on an 800 calorie a day diet. I didn't state that you could build muscle mass on that.

A study took 20 people and put them on an 800 calorie per day diet for 12 weeks. 10 people did the low calorie diet and resistance training
only & 10 people did the low calorie diet with cardio only.

The cardio group lost lean body mass, the reistance training did not.

There's a huge fear and mythology about a calorie deficit causing weight loss that is loss of muscle mass. the rate varies in literature I've read from as little as 1 pound a month to 5 pounds a week where people start trotting out the 'famine muscle loss' scare.

Very simple, you can lose fat, have a calorie deficit, and maintain muscle mass.

Koyote is right. And you have to put everything on a scale, 800cals is not the answer to everybody, from 160lbs woman to 350lbs man.

I've done PSMF with around 1200cals/day (proteins and EFA's) with weekly refeeds. Went from ~215 to 190~ in a month, with no loss in strength (=allways a good indicator for not losing muscle mass). A few pounds was obviously water weight - scale, tapemeasure, BIA, weight on the bar, all suggested no muscle loss.

Weigth training with enough ingested protein is the only protein (muscle) sparing "weightloss method" (well, that and anabolics). Cardio is a good add to the mixture if not taken to extreme. And when PSMF'ing (and VLCD probably too) strictly forbidden.

About starvation mode. It' not that big of a deal. It is real, but even the famous Minnesota study found 30-40% reduction in BMR, and that study lasted 6months and took the test subjects way overboard in relation what any sane and intelligent people would subject themselves to when dieting. (And yes, I know people are idiots)