How brittle is D2?

[STR]

I doubt seriously that anyone buys a Dozier with the intended purpose of beating it with a hammer. His market is largely hunters who field dress game.

Cliff, have you used D2 for field dressing a deer or elk? I would appreciate some insight into the performance of D2 in skinning and/or dressing game.

I know he tried to skin an automobile with one once! Didn't work out too well though.

STR

 

[richard j]

straightshot brought up a good point. has cliff even made a knife before from start to finish?

 

[on_the_edge]

Cliff, have you used D2 for field dressing a deer or elk? I would appreciate some insight into the performance of D2 in skinning and/or dressing game.

As an avid hunter, I too would like to know what impartial scientific data can tell me in regards to a Dozier knife used in skinning and/or dressing game under field conditions. My biased, short-sighted, and ignorant-in-all-things-scientific opinion based on actual use in the field on real game is that Bob makes a tremendous hard-use knife that performs very well on field dressing game animals. This is exactly the way that I want it to perform.

Every year, thousands of hunters take to the fields and forests in pursuit of their love of hunting. Not many have a need to remove car doors. For that, I suspect most would choose the Jaws of Life. Can we perhaps get a review of how the Jaws of Life would perform in field dressing game too please while we're at it?

Seriously though, Cliff, what has been your experience (even subjective personal experience) using Bob's D2 for skinning and field dressing game?

 

[resinguy]

Yes, that D2 blade moved out of the mold for D2. But ask Dozier if you can do that with one of his blades.

-Cliff

Swamp Rat would cover breakage in that manner. But then, they covered a guy who beat on a knife with a pipe wrench for several hours. Bob would likely consider hammering on a blade to be abuse, outside normal hard use, and would not cover it. And most folks would tend to agree.

 

[Mongo]

Yes, that D2 blade moved out of the mold for D2. But ask Dozier if you can do that with one of his blades.

-Cliff

Assinine comments like this is why we don't have REAL Professors of knife making... like say, BOB DOZIER, here to share his wealth of knowledge.

So, Cliff... have you actually used a Dozier knife to field dress and skin anything? Deer, Bear, Rabbit,... anything? I bet that if you did, you would notice the fine performance one of his blades gives.

 

[Tom Krein]

In my opinion, and that is all it is... D-2 is not brittle. They use it to cut other metal in machine shops??

Tips breaking and edges chipping are usually due to doing something you shouldn't, not always, but usually.

If a knife is designed for extreme cutting ability (ie thin edge geometry) it will likely chip out or break with lateral pressure. It is the lateral pressure that does the damage! The thinner it is the less pressure it will take. I have field dressed a deer with a Dozier folder that I ground extra thin and heat treated at RC 62 when I worked for him. I cut through the brisket/ribs with no problem, but I did not put any lateral pressure on it. I carried that Dozier folder for several years and it ALWAYS cut GREAT. I also never had any problems with chipping, because I used it as a fine cutting tool.

Change the edge geometry to a less thin flat grind or a convex grind and you would be hard pressed to break a D-2 blade!

It all comes down to matching the intended steel with the proper hardness (optimal heat treat) and blade geometry for the intended purpose!

A little common since goes a LONG way. Sometimes we have to use our knives in a way other than they were intended to be used because they are the ONLY tool at hand. If it chips or breaks it is not the tools use....

Even if a tool is used in a function other than designed I will still stand behind my work and I know of several other makers that do also. We try and make you the customer happy.

I look forward to seeing where this thread goes.

Tom Krein
Krein Knives

 

[flatgrinder]

D2 is an excellent steel. I wouldn't make an axe out of it, but for a knife (which is made for cutting not chopping) -it is superb. I like it better than S30V. I've had S30V chip, but never D2.

 

[STR]

Since you guys are now asking that question. The real question for me isn't about whether he has used one for skinning or field dressing any animals bagged, because I can second guess he'll have some other much finer choice in mind for that like Mora. My question is more along the lines of, "what is the difference between a test of a knife's worth cutting off door hinges to show off its superior standing and tests like Cold Steel does in their video DVDs?

DVDs Cliff calls nothing but hype and worthless marketing as I recall. So what does that make a test like that then in regards to knife promoting. Not to forget to mention when you take a carbon steel thicker and more obtuse vs a thin 1/8" stock ground very thin as your comparison knife for such a test to 'stack the deck' first so to speak. But hey, why not do a cutting a test with a Military against a Fallkniven U2 right?

STR

 

[Tom Krein]

Guys lets not hijack this thread.

It is not about how much you like or dislike Cliff or the way he tests blades it is about D-2's performance/brittleness!

There are already I hate Cliff threads..... feel free to post on those.

Tom

 

[richard j]

mvf. i have a custom knife made with d2 and its been pretty durable. i have used it to clean chickens and it chops through the leg and neck bones without any problem. i have been working on a skinner made out of d2 and i cant wait to get it done.

 

[sodak]

Where do you want the emphasis? Are you doing a bunch of animals and aren't worried about having extra strength that other tasks might require? Or are you doing a bunch of tasks and are willing to give up some cutting ability and edge retention to have a knife that won't experience failure? When knives start getting specialized and close to their "design edge", then intelligent choices have to be made.

 

[Kohai999]

Guys lets not hijack this thread.

It is not about how much you like or dislike Cliff or the way he tests blades it is about D-2's performance/brittleness!

There are already "I hate Cliff threads"..... feel free to post on those.

Tom

Since when have you become a Cliff Stamp defender, or protector of thread drift, Mr. Krein?

It is all interconnected.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Seriously....we need to remove "brittle" from our knife vocabulary. Steel is not brittle.

Brittle is a relative term, there are cutlery steels which have about 5% of the impact toughness of other cutlery steels. That entire range can obviously not be called tough. Can very brittle steels make good knives, sure, if the knives do not require impact toughness. I have a small utility knife which is made from 1095 at 66 HRC, it works very well as a small utility knife, it would be even better in M2. However the same steel extended to a large brush blade would fail horribly as the steel would be too brittle and the grindability completely unsuitable.

It is over 12 years old and for some reason I have not had the issues Cliff has had.

What specifically are those issues you are contending, actual quotes now, not vague generalities.

I doubt seriously that anyone buys a Dozier with the intended purpose of beating it with a hammer.

That was the point, do not infer that all D2 has the properties exhibited by the Swamp Rat blade, other makers are very clear that the steel is not suited to such work. It depends very much on the geometries used. Wilson for example uses thinner edges than Dozier, much thinner, and as expected he has to draw D2 to a softer hardness or finds that it will chip in use.

has cliff even made a knife before from start to finish?

Have you made a car from start to finish, a computer, a pen, a fishing pole, or even a chair? Does the fact that you did not make those things mean you can not comment on their scope and quality?

As an avid hunter, I too would like to know what impartial scientific data can tell me in regards to a Dozier knife used in skinning and/or dressing game under field conditions.

On rec.knives Johnston has compared ATS34 (a similar high carbide steel) to 1095 and M2, used in a variety of trades, carpet cutting, meat workers, utility (cowboys) and yes, even hunters. He found that 1095 was vastly superior to ATS34 (Bos heat treated) at low angles, the extra wear resistance of the large carbides in ATS34 was not functional as they just tore out of the very thin/acute edges. D2 would have the same performance comparison as ATS34 as it is in the same class of steels.

However the last part is critical, if the edges are very thick/obtuse then you will see wear resistance dominating and the high carbide steels will be far ahead of the edge stability steels. So it depends what you are looking for, very high cutting ability and sharpness (meaning the ability to shave smoothly, not scratch/scrape or lower), or the ability to cut for a very long time with a fairly low sharpness. Specifically how acute/thin are your edges and when do you sharpen? This determines what a steel must have in order to have high edge retention.

Cliff, what has been your experience (even subjective personal experience) using Bob's D2 for skinning and field dressing game?

I have done little, aside from what I would call experimenting on caribou parts I used mainly for bone cutting trials. Most of the animal preperation I do is on fish, chickens, rabbits and from this year forward, pigs as friend of mine has started raising them and we will be getting a quarter and I am of course donating time and knives to the processing.

I did discuss this extensively with those members of my family who hunt frequently and I discovered that the comments heard about edge retention are mainly meaninless because the stopping point is never well defined. In the above there are references to several animals skinned with Doziers, Mayo has noted that for his custom knives he has had people process 50+ animals. Now does this mean, that Doziers are about 10% of a Mayo? No, it just means those guys continued to work with very dull knives.

Because blunting is nonlinear you can easily double the amount of work you can do by accepting a 5-10% decrease in sharpness. That is not an exaggeration, those are actual numbers. Now keep that in mind when you really start to weigh the effect of "I processed X amount of animals." When working with nonlinear responces you have to take the nature of the responce into consideration carefully.

Personally I have moved away from steels like D2 because they they do not offer the cutting performance I require. My regular utility knives are at maximum 0.005"/10 degrees, D2 is simply not functional in this profile, it will not hold a high sharpness. My large chopping blades have a thicker profile, but there I want a high grindability to repair impact damage so D2 isn't suitable either, I would want a low allow medium carbon steel. D2 would work well in a general utility blade with a fairly thick/obtuse edge, but it would be inferior to M2 anyway which would offer both higher wear resistance, strength and even edge stability.

One of the trials planned for the evaluation group is D2, M2, 1095, F2,S7. I plan on edges of 0.005" with angles from 5,10,15,20,25 degrees per side, grits of 0.5 micron to 80 AO. Slicing aggression as well push cutting edge retention. There are many interesting things which will come out of that group, most of it I can predict from what I have dnoe already, but it will be useful to have it in one systematic run vs patchwork from dozens of knives.

-Cliff

 

[OilMan]

To Kohai: He doesn't have to be anyone's defender to see that someone else brought up the Swamp Rat and what someone did to it and Cliff remarked that Bob most likely wouldn't stand behind it if someone did it to one of his blades. Seems pretty straight forward to me. Makes sense too.:thumbup:

 

[Tom Krein]

Since when have you become a Cliff Stamp defender, or protector of thread drift, Mr. Krein?

It is all interconnected.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Steve,
I am not trying to protect anyone I have an interest in this thread as I use a LOT of D-2 and think highly of it. I am trying (it seems unsuccessfully) to steer this one back on course as I have seen how this usually goes.... it turns into Cliff against all comers and the original question is ignored/forgotten. There are plenty of those types of threads out there if you are interested in that.

Back to the issue at hand...

Tom

 

[JD Mandrell]

Have you made a car from start to finish, a computer, a pen, a fishing pole, or even a chair? Does the fact that you did not make those things mean you can not comment on their scope and quality?

A person can comment on something they have never done for sure, those comments should just not be taken as having meaningful intelligent value in a discussion with noted experts in any particular field.

A person of little or no experience in a field can talk all they want about that field, but when standing in the presence of those who have dedicated their lives to the practice and furtherance of that field and are widely recognized as such, then perhaps that person might want to listen and learn, rather than attempt to impress?

 

[richard j]

that still doesnt answer my question.

 

[Kohai999]

To Kohai: He doesn't have to be anyone's defender to see that someone else brought up the Swamp Rat and what someone did to it and Cliff remarked that Bob most likely wouldn't stand behind it if someone did it to one of his blades. Seems pretty straight forward to me. Makes sense too.:thumbup:

Swamp Rat Knives have a different heat treat and come from the factory with obtuse edges, except for the folder.....in my experience.

I have never seen a Dozier with an obtuse edge.

We are not discussing the same animal, here.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[STR]

If you want long lasting slicing aggression, then D2 pretty much sets a benchmark, combine that with an optomized geometry and few people would complain.

-Cliff

Personally I have moved away from steels like D2 because they they do not offer the cutting performance I require.

The D2 knife in my signiture line is a Bob Dozier SweetWater fixed blade I turned into that lockback for myself. Its anything but a thick obtuse edge unsuited for maximum cutting peformance. This blade measures .012"-.015 right above the edge bevel and has held up just fine for me there in all tasks I've used it for to date.

I no longer have the little Dozier Whittler I gave to my son a few years ago but I am fairly certain it was sub .010 thick in the same spots.

Some of the Queen D2 slip joints are less in their meaurements and only rarely do you hear any reports of lacking from the blades. On occasion one has a broken tip is about all I recall reading.

I'm a bit puzzled by the above quotes especially when you now appear to be one of those "few people that would complain." The top one from a different thread, the bottom from just a few minutes ago.

STR

 

[Torm]

A person can comment on something they have never done for sure, those comments should just not be taken as having meaningful intelligent value in a discussion with noted experts in any particular field.

A person of little or no experience in a field can talk all they want about that field, but when standing in the presence of those who have dedicated their lives to the practice and furtherance of that field and are widely recognized as such, then perhaps that person might want to listen and learn, rather than attempt to impress?

Well said. To have an opinion is one thing but to evangelize that opinion and take digs at respected knife makers who actually walk the walk instead of just typing about it is quite another.