How brittle is D2?

[Bastid]

All I need to field dress and quarter a S.E. U.S. buck is a Dozier in D2 designed for game. I have tried a lot of other steel over the years and his work the best for me so far. I do not dress game with a dull knife either.

That is a fact based on direct first hand experience rather than an extrapolation from what someone has told me or something I have read. I'll stick with it rather than follow the advice from someone without direct experience until I actually try something else that performs better. I have used at least 15 different knives for dressing and quartering. I have settled on the best I have experienced. It cuts bone. Keep in mind I do not use "impact techniques" when dressing game. .

 

[richard j]

well said gus.:thumbup: if you cant walk the walk....

 

[OilMan]

Swamp Rat Knives have a different heat treat and come from the factory with obtuse edges, except for the folder.....in my experience.

I have never seen a Dozier with an obtuse edge.

We are not discussing the same animal, here.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Exactly. But Cliff didn't bring it up, he commented on it. I don't think Bob would/should have to stand behind abuse either. Which is what Cliff said. And then someone acted like he was slamming Dozier. I did not take it that way at all. Then Tom tried to steer it back in the direction of the original post and he was called "a Cliff Stamp defender, or protector of thread drift, Mr. Krein?" for it. That doesn't make sense and that's what I commented on.

Here's what was actually said/typed:
Yes, that D2 blade moved out of the mold for D2. But ask Dozier if you can do that with one of his blades.

-Cliff

Which to me says that it was an odd Swamp Rat to take the abuse and why would Bob Dozier want to whack his knives with a hammer? He wouldn't. No one does. It's not a knock on Bob.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Its anything but a thick obtuse edge unsuited for maximum cutting peformance. This blade measures .012"-.015 right above the edge bevel and has held up just fine for me there in all tasks I've used it for to date.

Yes, that is a thick bevel, you are three times thicker than the maximum I will tolerate on knives, and these are on knives I cut sod and other material, not paper cutters. I am sending my Wilson back to get reground and it is not even as thick as the profile you describe.

I'm a bit puzzled by the above quotes ...

They are not contradictory, in fact in the above post I went into detail explaining why I personally do not favor D2 as a knife steel, this does not mean it has noting to offer, lots of people want the ability to hold a low sharpness for a long time at thick/obtuse edges, or want a dedicated coarse slicing edge.

I have found that as I th edges on my knives got thinner and more acute I tended to do far less draw in the cuts and thus the knives were better made from steels with a higher edge stability. D2 has among the lowest edge stability of the cutlery steels and it one of the worse steels you can use in that regard.

-Cliff

 

[Houseknives]

The knife is only as good as it HT...with that said no knife I repeat no knife should be used as a screw driver..knives are made for one thing and that is to cut..if somone one wants a thick edged knife so be it but it will not cut very long..grind them thin and make them sharp...leave the prying for a screw..

D2 is my favorite steels..if you are looking for something use for a high impact tool go with A2....

 

[STR]

In some of the threads here that get into metallurgy it sounds like (if I understand correctly) that D2 is considered comparatively brittle due to having an abundance of large carbides. This seems to make sense- again, assuming I'm understanding what I'm reading.

They can maybe appear 'edge fragile' to a user at times I guess if you see edges chipping out as in when a larger carbide gets knocked out like we have heard of happening with more than just D2 but also in other larger carbide steels. Brittle is probably a bad choice of words here as it doesn't fully describe what is happening with the edge, and for that matter it isn't really good for describing tip breaks on the thinner D2 knives but as can be seen in Cliff's test of the Dozier Agent. When he snapped off more than a small part of the tip it shows they can break when abused from using them outside the scope of what they were designed for. Sometimes I guess it can sure seem to be brittle like a file when something snaps that easily and of course its so easy to want to blame it on faulty heat treat or a maker not doing something right rather than take responsibility for it yourself. Its just from the thin grind though usually and the tip is generally a weaker part of the knife laterally as Tom described very well.

What I would like to learn is how this translates to real world usage. I have a small (K-35) Dozier and a BM710 in this steel and would like to get some idea of how "fragile" they are. I got the Dozier as a slicer (I believe it's their thinnest blade), but I thought the 710 was a hard duty knife.

Fragile they are not so long as you do with them what they are supposed to be used for but I think its been covered. The D2 blades you ask about will hold up fine in normal use without having to baby them at all. Its only when you do things you should pick a better or more adequate tool where lateral stress strength is required that you get into a bit of trouble with a good blade designed for cutting and slicing aggression especially when its thin. Don't be fooled into thinking that just because one blade steel is better suited to a thinner profile than another that it means it can't break either. It sure can. It might be harder to do is all that really means.

I know that these knives aren't pry bars, but just how careful do I need to be?

Thanks, Mike

The warranty instructions that are supplied with each new knife from BenchMade cover quite well what they will honor and what they will not. I think so long as you stay under that umbrella of protection and don't step outside it when using the knife that you don't have to worry much about 'getting wet'. Most guys love the 710 and you rarely read any complaints at all about it.

Dozier's knives are designed to cut and slice and they do this well for a very long time. Bob tells people this and I've heard him say this to people at shows, "My knives are designed for slicing and cutting and it will never let you down if thats what you do with them". You need not even ask Bob the question about whether its covered or not when it snaps the tip third off the blade if you use the point to pry up a piece of wood like Cliff did in his test of the Agent. No its not covered! And you know what? It shouldn't be covered since its outside the design specs of the grind, the tip, the knife and uses built into it by Bob! That is stepping outside the umbrella. Cliff got wet. Thats not what it was designed for anymore than it was designed to be hammered through an automobile door hinge. But I guess to the unknowing it looked fragile when it shattered after being hit by a hammer trying to slice through metal.

STR

 

[okbohn]

The bottom line is that in the normal course of usage with a good knife, you won't have issues with D2 being brittle.

 

[Jeff Clark]

D2 is not all that brittle when compared against a hard stainless steel like VG-10. Take a look at Cliff's comparison of three Deer Hunter model knives having AUS-8, VG-10, and D2 blades.
http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/deerhunters.html

 

[STR]

Its been said by many folks that D2 holds a crappy edge for a very long time and that is true. Its not too crappy of an edge when its maintained and of course we all know this but thats the thing. In the hands of most end line users, knives are not maintained that much if at all.

I used to refer to my old neighbor before he moved away as a 'real world user' I could use as my sounding board because one of the super steels meant nothing to him. I gave him a Leek S30V and he liked it fine but went back to Wal-mart within a month of getting it and got him a regular production Scallion because he liked it better. I've already talked about that elsewhere.

The point is the end line users out there in the world are pretty much the same in one way, not the forumites but the real world users I mean. They just buy their knives like my neighbor and more importantly they use them that way. When you take a new knife regardless of the steel the blade is made of and do anything from flick out rocks in your tires to cut barbed wire it has a crappy edge on it. Most have a crappy edge by the time they get that far or shortly after the first time the owner uses the blade to clean their spark plugs and scrape off crud from an engine block with it. From then on it doesn't much matter the steel the blade is made of does it? What they want is a knife that holds a crappy edge for a long time.

Bob provides that and thats where D2 shines I think. They get a great knife that cuts like any other new knife right after they buy it and shortly after that it works into this 'crappy edge' but the great thing is it stays that way a long long time. Hence all the good talk about it and why its so well thought of. Anyway, thats how I see it.

STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

D2 is not all that brittle when compared against a hard stainless steel like VG-10.

Yes, those stainless steels have similar chunky carbides and even more chromium in the matrix. But not all stainless steels are like that, the low carbide ones for example will be much tougher than D2 even when they are as hard or harder.

The reason you will never notice microchipping with Dozier's blades is because his edge thickness and angle are high and he uses a very coarse finish so even when they do microchip it just increases the sawing performance. The latter is why the slicing aggression is so high and lasts for so long.

Now if you want to see what high cutting ability actually means, then get a knife made from M2, 66 HRC, with the edge at 0.005"/10 degrees and compare that to a 60/61 Dozier D2 at 0.015"/18 degrees and see which one cuts better, needs to be sharpened more frequently and is easier to sharpen.

You do not even need to pay for it, Johnston has been giving them away to serious knife users for over ten years, both in full form as well as in kits. All he asks for is unbiased feedback. He also doesn't sell any knives either, so no worry about hurting his business by being critical. You are not going to be any harder on the knives than he is anyway.

-Cliff

 

[Alberta Ed]

I used Cliff's Dozier K2 (on loan) to field dress, skin and bone out a couple of caribou, and it worked like a compact chainsaw. Just snicked through the cartilage and gristle, never needed a touch-up.

 

[db]

Brittle is a relative term, .. .
I have a small utility knife which is made from 1095 at 66 HRC, it works very well as a small utility knife, it would be even better in M2.

get a knife made from M2, 66 HRC, with the edge at 0.005"/10 degrees

I’d agree hard M2 makes for a very good knife. See more carbides aren’t so bad after all. I personally haven’t had any problems at all with my D2 knives and I put a 10 to 15 degree per side edge on them. No carbides have noticeably fallen out.

 

[Kohai999]

I’d agree hard M2 makes for a very good knife. See more carbides aren’t so bad after all. I personally haven’t had any problems at all with my D2 knives and I put a 10 to 15 degree per side edge on them. No carbides have noticeably fallen out.

I would say, it depends upon your criteria...I have acid skin, and carried my Benchmade 710 in M2 IWB....the edge rusted pretty bad, and this leads to sharpness deterioration.

D2 is MUCH better for not aggressively rusting than M2, but is still not ideal....I have found that sheath knives that can be isolated by the sheath from the environment(kydex ,vegetable tanned leather, or wood) in D2 are fine, but I prefer the stain resistant steels(like....the dreaded 440C or GASP CPM154) for folding EDC knives.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I used Cliff's Dozier K2 (on loan) to field dress, skin and bone out a couple of caribou, and it worked like a compact chainsaw. Just snicked through the cartilage and gristle, never needed a touch-up.

Yeah, nice blade, I loaned that to one of my friends who raved about it after working on some caribou, until he heard the price anyway. Any interest in using this :

M2, full hard, edge is 0.002"/4.5 degrees, yes that is not a typo, those are the actual numbers. To put the Dozier K2 in perspective, that M2 blade is about a 9 in hemp cutting, the K2 is only a 4. I would rather a deep hollow for such knives, but that blade was an experiment by the maker in a full convex grind, on his hollows the blades are the same thickness about 1/4" back from the edge as Dozier's are at the edge bevel itself.

He doesn't have to be anyone's defender to see that someone else brought up the Swamp Rat and what someone did to it and Cliff remarked that Bob most likely wouldn't stand behind it if someone did it to one of his blades.

That would be the point indeed, you do not want to extrapolate the Busse D2 into D2 in general as other makers will not welcome that kind of use on thier knives. Note the Safari Skinner had the same edge angle as the two Doziers I used as well, it was not more obtuse so it isn't a case of more steel. I reduced the edge on the one I have to 10 degrees per side, I would like to flatten the primary grind to get the thickness down to < 0.0.010", but D2 is hell to grind on a 1" belt sander, I need some 40 grit belts. But then again I have lots of thin blades with deep hollow grinds anyway so I might as well leave that for rougher work with thicker edge configurations which is what the steel is best suited for anyway.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

How come you never tried to hammer that Safari Skinner through a car hinge?

This Alvin Johnston you speak of. Is he the same one that was like this aviator spoken of in flying circles?

M2 is one of those up there with O1 for rusting from staring at it too long as I recall but I imagine it does cut well with the vadium carbides being higher, however one of the things I do like about D2 even though its technically a 'non stainless' is that it does exhibit a lot of stainless qualities. I know a lot of makers that bead blast their D2 blades with little concern. I've got one I made myself that has not had any ill effects from bead blasting it either..

STR

 

[SlamFire]

Message Deleted

 

[Kohai999]

So I decided on rust resistance. D2 it is. Hope I make the right choice. I am not going to be chopping trees or boulders with the thing. Probably the heaviest duty will be cardboard. All I want is just want a good sharp knife that is reasonably easy to sharpen.

Hope I did not mess up.

You did just fine.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[sodak]

I have never seen a Dozier with an obtuse edge.
Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Actually, all my Doziers have pretty obtuse edges. And that's a good thing!

The reason I say this, is because a year or so ago, I was experimenting with a bunch of D2 knives, and found they chipped and indented very easily once the edge bevel was thinned out too much. With a more obtuse micro bevel, they quit chipping, but didn't cut as well. What to do? Hmmm....

With a high hollow grind, you can have a *very* thin primary grind, yet still have a fairly obtuse edge. Put a rough edge on it (meaning rough in terms of grit size, not quality), and you have a D2 knife that keeps an edge for a very long time cutting through rough hide and dirty rope.

Enter Bob Dozier. Even though his bevels are "obtuser", this prevents damage, and since the primary grind is thin, his knives have great cutting efficiency. Combine that with a rough edge, and you have a D2 chainsaw, with the proper heat treat. Bob does this all with his knives, I love them, but saying that his edges are more obtuse than others is no slam, he just knows how to get the most out of D2.

Its been said by many folks that D2 holds a crappy edge for a very long time and that is true.
STR

I think it takes a great edge and holds it for a very long time. I'm testing D2 against CPM D2 right now, and they're both tougher than me!

I’d agree hard M2 makes for a very good knife. See more carbides aren’t so bad after all. I personally haven’t had any problems at all with my D2 knives and I put a 10 to 15 degree per side edge on them. No carbides have noticeably fallen out.

M2 does indeed. After I'm done with the D2 tests, I'm going to duplicate them with M2 HSS, and it should be interesting.

This Alvin Johnston you speak of. Is he the same one that was like this aviator spoken of in flying circles?
STR

Alvin's the real deal. His knives are incredible, you have to use one to appreciate it.

straightshot brought up a good point. has cliff even made a knife before from start to finish?

He's made 2 that I know of, probably more that I don't.

 

[STR]

I'd like to use one of Alvin's knives. It would help if one knew how to reach this person to set that up though.

STR

 

[sodak]

I'd like to use one of Alvin's knives. It would help if one knew how to reach this person to set that up though.

STR

He hangs out on rec.knives, although lately that has been taken over by some trolls. I'll send you his email and if you have trouble getting hold of him, let me know and I'll send you an HSS blade. Not made by Alvin, but definitely under his direction, and you can judge for yourself.