how can you make a knife without this ?

JasonSCarter said:
But wow heckuva comeback man
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th_not-worthy.gif


A classic that's for sure! :D :D :D
 
although I have been known to correct a train engineer, once and awhile.
I, am not one myself.
 
perchance you would have been better off to post "this is how I do it/what I use" , insted of implying "you can't make a knife without this"
 
SShepherd said:
perchance you would have been better off to post "this is how I do it/what I use" , insted of implying "you can't make a knife without this"
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actually I said and if you look at the top of the page.

"how can you make a knife with out this..?"
 
Quote: "In my day job I calibrate thermal test equipment used on aerospace alloys in a NADCAP accredited lab, before that I was a professional photographer doing high end color work, I learned color at RIT while working on my bachelors and Masters from Doctors Miller, Fairchild, and Grainger in the Munsell Color Science Laboratory, Center for Imaging Science."

OK, so you're saying you dabble around a little bit with this stuff, huh? But what's it mean for ME?!?!?!? THAT'S the important issue. Me! Me! Me! ;-)

I've actually used the Munsell color charts. Another passion I have is growing daylilies and it is really tough to know what the color "pink" is. It was proposed that blossom color be identified by a more objective system such as a standard color chart. Welllllll that didn't get very far partly because of the expense of such official color standards reference books. Color photographic darkroom workers can distinguish between amazingly subtle variations in hue, contrast, exposure, etc, that go into making a color print. We THINK we can see differences but without a lot of training and experience (36 years sounds good) it is very difficult to see subtle differences.

LonePine
AKA Paul Meske
 
Virgilio said:
actually I said and if you look at the top of the page.

"how can you make a knife with out this..?"
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yes, and by saying that you are implying a person can't make a knife without that "color chart"

you were told how, you questioned it's validity- and were promptly told the shortcomings because of variables affecting the color chart, along with how he knew his oven was accurate.

you obviously are taking it a bit too personal
 
lonepine said:
quote: "in my day job i calibrate thermal test equipment used on aerospace alloys in a nadcap accredited lab, before that i was a professional photographer doing high end color work, i learned color at rit while working on my bachelors and masters from doctors miller, fairchild, and grainger in the munsell color science laboratory, center for imaging science."

ok, so you're saying you dabble around a little bit with this stuff, huh? But what's it mean for me?!?!?!? That's the important issue. Me! Me! Me! ;-)

i've actually used the munsell color charts. Another passion i have is growing daylilies and it is really tough to know what the color "pink" is. It was proposed that blossom color be identified by a more objective system such as a standard color chart. Welllllll that didn't get very far partly because of the expense of such official color standards reference books. Color photographic darkroom workers can distinguish between amazingly subtle variations in hue, contrast, exposure, etc, that go into making a color print. We think we can see differences but without a lot of training and experience (36 years sounds good) it is very difficult to see subtle differences.

Lonepine
aka paul meske
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wow.....
 
SShepherd said:
yes, and by saying that you are implying a person can't make a knife without that "color chart"

you were told how, you questioned it's validity- and were promptly told the shortcomings because of variables affecting the color chart, along with how he knew his oven was accurate.

you obviously are taking it a bit too personal
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well you got this one wrong also, thats two for two, want to try again...?
 
SShepherd said:
rotfl, ok

if you're not takin it personal you would have just let it go.

enjoy your color chart.;):)
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three for three, we have a winner...!

I would let you go for four in a row, but others have to play..

have a great day....
 
lonepine said:
Quote: "In my day job I calibrate thermal test equipment used on aerospace alloys in a NADCAP accredited lab, before that I was a professional photographer doing high end color work, I learned color at RIT while working on my bachelors and Masters from Doctors Miller, Fairchild, and Grainger in the Munsell Color Science Laboratory, Center for Imaging Science."

OK, so you're saying you dabble around a little bit with this stuff, huh? But what's it mean for ME?!?!?!? THAT'S the important issue. Me! Me! Me! ;-)

I've actually used the Munsell color charts. Another passion I have is growing daylilies and it is really tough to know what the color "pink" is. It was proposed that blossom color be identified by a more objective system such as a standard color chart. Welllllll that didn't get very far partly because of the expense of such official color standards reference books. Color photographic darkroom workers can distinguish between amazingly subtle variations in hue, contrast, exposure, etc, that go into making a color print. We THINK we can see differences but without a lot of training and experience (36 years sounds good) it is very difficult to see subtle differences.

LonePine
AKA Paul Meske
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calibrating equipment must be important to get the proper results, because you did/do it for a living..

palmer
 
I read the process page on your website...

52100 steel
Forge at 1600-1800F
Spherodize three times
Anneal 24hrs in closed forge
Grind and work to shape
Torch heat to 1500 and edge quench in water for 1-2 seconds.
Temper once for 2hrs.

This gives you a 52100 blade with an edge of 58-59HRC and a spine of 48-49HRC.

Every 20th knife you test... which includes a 90deg flex test, several times.



Have I got it right?


Rick
 
I use a mix of that (or a very similar) color chart and the magnet. I bring the metal up to temp and as I get close I'm keeping an eye on the colors (it's never 100% consistent as it comes up for me) and use the magnet to check. Once an area goes non magnetic I have a reference point that I can match a temp to color in current conditions and I go from there. I'm not so much saying "I want this color off the chart" as I am using the chart as a sliding scale that I peg to the magnet test as I go in order to match the actual situation.

This is not to say I wouldn't LOVE to use a fully temp controlled or at least monitored forge with regularly calibrated instrumentation, but I took the advice given here and use a fairly forgiving steel with a simple HT that lets my relatively coarse temp control give reliable results.

Oh, and as a fellow RIT geek I have to agree, trying to work straight off a color chart is no more reliable than the calibration used start to finish in creating, displaying, printing and viewing that color chart and matching it to the viewing conditions during the comparison. Even with high end equipment and a lot of care you can get two very different looking charts from the same source.

Here's one that'll mess with your mind. Imagine we had Pantone color calibration for this. If you somehow had one inside the forge you'd have to have it adjusted for the color temp inside your particular forge AND the light being given off by the blade once heated. If you use it outside the forge you'd still have to deal with light mixing from whatever light sources are around plus the changing color temp being given off by the blade. A white sheet of paper is not going to show as white when placed next to a glowing hot blade, even before factoring in the actual heat turning the paper into a fire hazard.

I only touched on the science of this stuff at school as it applied to my work, more a "how do I" rather than "why", when I needed more I tracked down folks like Page and let them explain it to me or just figure it out and tell me what I needed to change.

On a more humorous note. I'm going to see if I can dig up a pic of a friend of mine that shows just how deceptive light can be to the human eye. You guys will like it, sexy red head in a short dress.... :)

sarahwhipsmall.jpg

If you want a larger file - http://www.wolfweb.us/images/sarahwhip.jpg
This had a white background with two different gels over the lights being used to light the background with some spill over onto her. In person the eye compensated so much you really couldn't see the colors on the background, they were very faint. On film....
 
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Mr. Palmer, to answer your question "how can you make a knife without this ? ". I make them very well without a color chart, as do many others.
Mike Broach
 
Thanks, Virgilio...

Another question...

What happens after the 1-2 second edge quench in water? How do you finish the cooling process prior to tempering?


Rick
 
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