How do Samurai keep their katanas clean?

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SonX51 said:
This is simply not true. Many people still use Nihonto to cut with, especially people in Japan, where it is illegal to import swords from anywhere else or to create new swords unless created specifically from certain government approved materials.
Even then-- The Japanese literally laid their swords down 100 years ago, so "antique" can be relative.
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Perhaps you should have read my post twice. I said using antique Nihonto for tameshigiri is frowned upon, and it is by collectors both here and in Japan.
When was the last time you saw someone break out a 50K Ichimonji for tameshigiri? You haven't and you wont!

If you mean showato and gunto, then yeah, some do use them. But they are not in the same class and are not artistic collectables.

Of course the Japanese use Nihonto ie; Japanese swords, they are in Japan (Duh). BUT, 99.99% of Japanese do not use antiques for practice!!! They use Iaiito or shinken which are traditionally made Japanese swords but of a lower quality than shinsakuto.

Not sure how many Iai schools you have visited in Japan but if you think they are all using antiques or even expensive shinsakuto you are sadly mistaken.

The small exception to that is a few heirs to sword schools who own antique blades which have been passed down through several generations and possibly a very few upper level practitioners. Of course I can't speak for every single one, but the few I have met and asked stated they only used those blades for Kata as they too valuable and precious to risk damaging them by using them for tameshigiri.

One I specifically remember was when in Kyoto I visited the oldest Budo training hall in Kyoto. Through a friend I was able to speak with the headmaster and he showed me a Magoroku Kanemoto katana. I asked him if he ever used it for tameshigiri, his reply, "No, kata only". When asked why, he replied through my translator "too precious".

Antique is not relative! It is a term which refers to something being 100 years old or more.
The Japanese laid down their swords over 100 years ago, in 1876 after the Haitorei edict was passed, but sword training and making continued and still exists today.
 
Hey man, I know guys that have cut with some pretty old swords in Japan, and it was perfectly fine. All I was really saying is that from what I know, from people that told me they did it, is that it really isn't that big of a deal. I actually cut with a ~400 year old sword once and the owner handed it to me in front of people *from* Japan, who had also used it. *shrug* They're just pieces of steel.
 
SonX51 said:
Hey man, I know guys that have cut with some pretty old swords in Japan, and it was perfectly fine. All I was really saying is that from what I know, from people that told me they did it, is that it really isn't that big of a deal. I actually cut with a ~400 year old sword once and the owner handed it to me in front of people *from* Japan, who had also used it. *shrug* They're just pieces of steel.
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There's so much I could say about that statement, that I'm damn near rendered speechless.
 
I was a machinist. I get the awe and wonder, I really do, but in the end, if it's garbage, it's garbage.

Glenn, I thought we ended the whole "swords are magic and have feelings" stuff years ago?
 
SonX51 said:
I was a machinist. I get the awe and wonder, I really do, but in the end, if it's garbage, it's garbage.

Glenn, I thought we ended the whole "swords are magic and have feelings" stuff years ago?
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A hunk of bronze. Nothing more.

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Paint. Let it fade.

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A pile of wood. Who cares if it rots.

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Simply hunks of clay.

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A stack of stones. May it tumble.

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Just rocks.

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More rocks.

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A piece of steel. Destined to rust away anyway.

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Another slip of pointless steel.

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Just a shape in metal. Who cares if it's maintained or remembered.

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Just another slab of stone that was.

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Wood and lead. What's the point.

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"...in the end, if it's garbage, it's garbage."

I pity the piece of history that ends up with you as its steward.
 
Mecha said:
I pity the piece of history that ends up with you as its steward.
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:thumbsup::thumbsup:
Amen!!

I had planned to forgo further replies as the mentality expressed by "son's" comment "They're just pieces of steel" was beyond belief. How do you reply to someone this
uneducated, uninformed, benighted, birdbrained, cretinous, dense, imbecilic, inexperienced, insensible, mindless, misinformed, moronic, nescient, shallow, unconversant, uncultivated, uncultured,
unenlightened, uninitiated, unintellectual, unknowledgeable, unlearned, unlettered, unmindful, unread, unschooled, unsuspecting, untaught, untrained, unwitting, witless, and uncaring when regarding objects of art.

However, I have to say that Mecha's post answered it perfectly. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
Well, he pretty much did the sword forum equivalent of walking into a car show and declaring,"Why not just run these classic cars into the ground, since they're just pieces of steel." Of course he's gonna catch some flak after that! :D:eek:
 
SouthernComfort said:
:thumbsup::thumbsup:
Amen!!

I had planned to forgo further replies as the mentality expressed by "son's" comment "They're just pieces of steel" was beyond belief. How do you reply to someone this
uneducated, uninformed, benighted, birdbrained, cretinous, dense, imbecilic, inexperienced, insensible, mindless, misinformed, moronic, nescient, shallow, unconversant, uncultivated, uncultured,
unenlightened, uninitiated, unintellectual, unknowledgeable, unlearned, unlettered, unmindful, unread, unschooled, unsuspecting, untaught, untrained, unwitting, witless, and uncaring when regarding objects of art.

However, I have to say that Mecha's post answered it perfectly. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
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Or, while the story about using the 400 year old sword and knowing people that did so with dojo in Japan is 100% true, maybe I wanted to see how people reacted to that mentality here ;)
 
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I actually have a 200+ year old tanto in my stewardship that I have used as a study piece. It's signed "Kane Yasu", and looks as it it were originally a wakizashi that was broken. The previous owner took a buffing wheel to it, and after talking to a few Togishi about it, it was decided that it is an otherwise worthless blade (hamon runs off about 2 inches from the kissaki, and it has some nasty ware), that could be used to study and practice mounting on because, really, it's a broken sword that most likely saved somebody's life prior to whatever happened to it between it leaving Japan and coming to America, before I got it. I cleaned it up a little, made a habaki and shirasaya for it, and I take it out to clean once in a while at this point. It's been fine for 20 years.

I'm not the jackass that hit the mune with a mallet and chipped the edge, I'm the jackass that saved it from the trash heap. I may eventually finish mounting it, but I would need it polished by a Togishi, and any Togishi that's seen it has said they'd hold onto it as a study piece, but it was not worth polishing as it would end it's life, the blade is actually so tired, in fact, that the habaki fits funny due to the machi being moved up the blade by half an inch.


BTW, really nice place you guys have here.

You guys are fun and welcoming!
 
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SonX51 said:
Or, while the story about using the 400 year old sword and knowing people that did so with dojo in Japan is 100% true, maybe I wanted to see how people reacted to that mentality here ;)
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So you're conducting a social experiment?
 
SonX51 said:
Hey man, I know guys that have cut with some pretty old swords in Japan, and it was perfectly fine. All I was really saying is that from what I know, from people that told me they did it, is that it really isn't that big of a deal. I actually cut with a ~400 year old sword once and the owner handed it to me in front of people *from* Japan, who had also used it. *shrug* They're just pieces of steel.
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Connor MacLeod of the clan MacLeod, is that you?
 
SonX51 said:
Yes, Keith Larman and the other polishers always mentioned that you would have found something closer to the polish that Gus or Tinker give you on a working sword. Easy, quick, got the job done until the next time.



This is simply not true. Many people still use Nihonto to cut with, especially people in Japan, where it is illegal to import swords from anywhere else or to create new swords unless created specifically from certain government approved materials.

Even then-- The Japanese literally laid their swords down 100 years ago, so "antique" can be relative.
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The Japanese HAD to laid down their swords after we had to nuked them & Full occupation of their islands.. Their were thousands beheaded, etc by them throughout China “ Rape of Nanking “ and the Pacific.. You really kindly need to learn history before you open your mouth about history & swords for that matter.
 
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Rhinoknives1 said:
The Japanese HAD to laid down their swords after we had to nuked them & Full occupation of their islands.. Their were thousands beheaded, etc by them throughout China “ Rape of Nanking “ and the Pacific.. You really kindly need to learn history before you open your mouth about history & swords for that matter.
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I'm unsure what you are trying to add to the post other than agreeing with me while trying to act like I'm a fool that hasn't studied swords and martial arts for the past 20 years. After The Americans committed the war crimes at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we occupied Japan and took every sword, gun, and right away from them. That was in the 1940's, so, maybe I should have said 80 years ago? We bombed them to show off the bomb to Russia. Nothing more.
 
From what I learned in Hiroshima, The Japanese invasion and occupation of Chinese lands was retaliation for hundreds of years of the Chinese invading Japan. What they did there was atrocious, and nobody has any excuse for it.

The Hibakusha that took us around the city also told us that the Japanese had surrendered a significant time prior to us dropping Little Boy on Hiroshima, and we had not acknowledged it because we wanted to show off to Russia and give Japan payback for Pearl Harbor (Which, well, we had already taken out by firebombing most of Japan). This story was actually told to us at Pearl Harbor, as well, which makes it look worse for Americans, as we are admitting it now.
 
None of Your interpretation changes the fact that the “Japanese didn’t lay down their swords” 100 years ago.. There were plenty of swords taken off Japanese Soldiers all over the Pacific, Malaya, Thailand, The Philippines and many other places during WWII .. While I do not hold current generations in Japan at fault. I also don’t buy into, Gosh! The USA was the aggressor , at fault for dropping nukes etc . They had already surrendered. Nor do I agree that beheading contests in China & the Philippines just to name two places and out right brutal treatment of our men in the Bataan dead march & those held captive anywhere was anything short of Barbaric Nor is it now some how alright, Because of some tour bus spokesman in Japan told you..My father’s Gen fought in WWII and I met & talked at length with our Veterans that fought in the Pacific & European theaters all of my life.. They laid down their swords because their Tojo, told them if they didn’t .. we would massacre any we found bearing weapons of any kind!
 
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