How do you get highly skilled makers to post here?

[NickWheeler]

I'm going to word this exactly as I just did while talking to Angi.

This mess has turned into something about newbies and veterans and if they should be separated. There's a lot of talk about new guys asking the same questions. I don't give a crap about that... I just don't post on many of those. A simple solution to that would be for management to reply to those threads with a 'read this' linking to sticky threads and then locking the thread.

My one and only concern with the forum's current status, is the lack of accomplished makers.

Don't just tell me they are too busy... they are posting on other forums... LOTS of big name, accomplished makers. Yet they aren't here.


So how does the membership of this forum go about getting some of them back, and some new ones to come here and post?????

That is what I was trying to bring up in the first place.

 

[sunshadow]

Treat them well and show some gratitude for their contributions. One of the very well known former makers got tired of being harassed and went away. I haven't been spending as much time on this forum because it has become boring.


-Page

 

[russianpolander]

Isn't there some way to lock out certain groups? Maybe the "knifemaker" status needs to have stricter guidelines. Then only the more accomplished makers would be able to post in Shop Talk or ATG. I know very little about knifemaking, but most is what I read on here. Probably most beginner makers and hobby makers would be fine with just being able to read what true knifemakers have to say and not posting at all. I know I would.

 

[Bigfattyt]

I don't have a solution. I hope we can keep a good strong presence of makers on here.

 

[David Stifle]

I've been a member of this forum for quite awhile now, and I honestly do not remember all that many "highly skilled" members ever posting here. It seems to me it's ALWAYs been just a handful. You, Don, Kevin, and a few others, with a big name occassionally dropping in, Bruce Bump, Tai Goo, etc. Are you sure you are not remembering this place with rose colored glasses?

 

[NickWheeler]

David- no, I'm sure. I don't know if you started here in '08 or had an account before that, but I am going back even further than that. Ed Caffrey, Tom Mayo, Jerry Hossom, Tom Mayo, Trace Rhinaldi, Kit Carson, Ken Onion... that's just a small handful of guys that come to mind.

And it wasn't just big name guys in the shows/magazines/books (I admit to fault for wording it that way).


There were guys like my buddies Matt Gregory and Mike Fitzgerald (Fitzo). Both awesome guys, both EXTREMELY articulate and well spoken, both utilize a very scientific approach, but both cool/funny/silly enough to make posting and sharing stuff here FUN AND ENJOYABLE.

They are but two of MANY that faded away.

 

[Mitchell Knives]

IIRC, many experienced makers were lost due to the high number of trolls who frequented the fourm.

People will naturally cease visiting this forum if their contributions are routinely lambasted by random strangers with bad intent.

 

[David Stifle]

David- no, I'm sure. I don't know if you started here in '08 or had an account before that, but I am going back even further than that. Ed Caffrey, Tom Mayo, Jerry Hossom, Tom Mayo, Trace Rhinaldi, Kit Carson, Ken Onion... that's just a small handful of guys that come to mind.

And it wasn't just big name guys in the shows/magazines/books (I admit to fault for wording it that way)


There were guys like my buddies Matt Gregory and Mike Fitzgerald (Fitzo). Both awesome guys, both EXTREMELY articulate and well spoken, both utilize a very scientific approach, but both cool/funny/silly enough to make posting and sharing stuff here FUN AND ENJOYABLE.

They are but two of MANY that faded away.

Nick, I remember some of those guys posting here, Ed and Fotzo for sure. As I recall, most of them left after various Flame Wars. So, to answer your question, how do we rather get them back, or attract them here, simply do not tolerate such behavior. A very good example of how interchanges between peers should work is Don Fogg's forum. I've never seen anything but respect there. It's a cultural thing, I guess. By the way, Don's forum does have a separate forum for new guys, a separate forum for heat treating and so on. It naturally steers people to the forum that best addresses their current issues. One very good thing about this forum I don't think the other forums offer is any knifemaker can get his or her own subforum here. Any one of the guys you mentioned could do so, and conduct that forum according to his style.

 

[Dave Behrens]

I do not consider myself even in the same universe in terms of skill compared to most "makers" past and present on this forum let alone the entire custom knife industry.

I think if we truly wish for the great makers of yesterday/year to return, it will involve more "self-policing" rather than further regulation. Even with that I believe it is going to be a long

road with no guarantee at the end that they will return. If all of us who are still here can create an environment where the old makers feel good to be part of they will slowly start to come back.

Suggestions:
1. Do not encouraging repeat threads by participating in them, beyond a warm welcome and a link to the sticky threads.

2. Understanding there is such thing as a stupid question and it is OK to say so

3. If a member (new or old) displays a negative attitude, or constantly insights flame wars, then just simply ignore them. Do not encourage them b y responding to their comments.

4. Learning to better recognize the difference between someone who really wants to learn, and a troll. And showing that said troll the door faster.

5. Probably the best thing for everyone to do whether old, or new is grow some thicker skin and lighten up. There are worse things than knives made from scrap iron and a newb with an attitude.

 

[Brian Avila]

I hear from other makers that the reputation of the Bladeforums isn't very good. Lots of arguing and flaming as well as people asking the same questions all the time (I'm guilty of it).

 

[Dixieblade57]

Well I got flamed for this the last time I brought it up but I know one of those who has walked away from this site. He is a big name maker and he told me on another forum the reason he walked away was the attitude put forth towards newbies like me that were asking legitimate questions!

You see he said he never minded answering questions and a couple I asked were pretty dumb! He answered them fully and respectfully though. I posted the same question on another forum and I also told him I had been put off by a member of this forum as I was asking dumb questions. He told me he had seen what I had asked on the other forum and even though it had been worded different on that forum (BF) it wasn't a dumb question and the member that burnt me over the question was wrong. He no longer at that time responded on BF for that and other reasons.

So you see it's not so much the dumb questions but the total lack of respect by some of the younger members to the older more experienced makers. To me there is nothing wrong with a beginners section but paying for all this stuff is not the answer. Other than this forum one of the most used and respected sites in my opinion asks for only paid memberships for those who are making a living and then only if they are selling through there site.

[I am on thin ice here as this is exactly what I got burnt for before/B], so once again I am not going to mention his name. This story is about another knife maker who used to be member of the BF. The non member who had posted over here is in my opinion quite possibly one of the most informed posters and knife makers bar none. He does not post on this site because of the pay for pictures thing he was trying to post a picture of a knife he was taking to blade and since there is a rule that pictures can be posted of knives by paying members he pulled the post down. He will never sell a knife on this forum, as he sells of his own web site. But rules are rules, and I said you can't enforce the rules for one person and not another.

However just seeing this particular knife makers work and knowing his insight into the metallurgy side of this, including his knowledge of heat treatment is the most valued information that this site may be missing out on. He has advanced knife making by leaps and bounds. I have been told by him the I ask the kind of questions that required him to speak on that forum when all he usually does is moderate. So I guess not all my questions rated the newbie rating I was getting.

The funny thing I can go to another site and I can see all this for free. The other funny thing about that site that is where most all of the ones we have lost have turned up. So maybe if BF wants to keep on top they need to see what the other site is doing right!

All the fire works started last time when I suggested that maybe we needed to look at the rules and see if they were really working! So if you want to tell me again that maybe my money and I aren't needed again feel free!

 

[Esav Benyamin]

I don't spend much time here. Some principles apply in all forums, though, and I have been reading everything I found on this current debate.

Reading what's been discussed so far, I decided I don't want to wall off the newbies from the experienced makers. That's like banning newbies, quarantining them. We can do better. I also don't want a certain level of paid membership for participation. There are new and old participants now who are Registered Users and some who are paid members.

My one and only concern with the forum's current status, is the lack of accomplished makers.

Don't just tell me they are too busy... they are posting on other forums... LOTS of big name, accomplished makers. Yet they aren't here.


So how does the membership of this forum go about getting some of them back, and some new ones to come here and post?????

We need to ask them but we should have some changes to offer first, otherwise it's just more polls, "paralysis by analysis". Really, really experienced makers have different professional needs. We may have trolls here but we can eliminate them if we focus on it. That's not giving professionals a place to work, though.

We have space for hosted Knifemaker forums. How about space for specific technical questions. Do any of these sound useful, or can you suggest others? -- forging; heat treating; embellishing; new materials/steels? In fact, what are these knifemakers discussing in the other forums they frequent now?

IIRC, many experienced makers were lost due to the high number of trolls who frequented the fourm.

People will naturally cease visiting this forum if their contributions are routinely lambasted by random strangers with bad intent.

Definitely worth addressing. We have a moderator now for this area of Bladeforums who does pay attention to questions and problems. We can control trolling. Dave Behrens has some very good suggestions :

Suggestions:
1. Do not encouraging repeat threads by participating in them, beyond a warm welcome and a link to the sticky threads.

2. Understanding there is such thing as a stupid question and it is OK to say so

3. If a member (new or old) displays a negative attitude, or constantly insights flame wars, then just simply ignore them. Do not encourage them b y responding to their comments.

4. Learning to better recognize the difference between someone who really wants to learn, and a troll. And showing that said troll the door faster.

5. Probably the best thing for everyone to do whether old, or new is grow some thicker skin and lighten up. There are worse things than knives made from scrap iron and a newb with an attitude.

I like these points, including not getting bent out of line with a seemingly useless newbie. Just move on, we will have better threads for your participation if you don't like that one.

Trolls intrude in otherwise productive conversations. Those are the ones we want to get rid of.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

He does not post on this site because of the pay for pictures thing he was trying to post a picture of a knife he was taking to blade and since there is a rule that pictures can be posted of knives by paying members he pulled the post down. He will never sell a knife on this forum, as he sells of his own web site. But rules are rules, and I said you can't enforce the rules for one person and not another.

Something is missing. The newest member here can post a picture. This does not require a paid membership, only use of a photo hosting site. Perhaps he was posting a picture with a link to his website?

 

[Rick Marchand]

I believe Shop Talk has just become saturated. Like cool little beach that gets too popular... eventually, it loses what made it unique. The new people showing up at the beach never knew it the way it was and don't have the expectations... while the original crew despises what has become of it.

I think it is a phase, like any other social venue will experience and it will pass.

Talking to makers, I get the feeling that they are tired of posting their advice and methods, only to get attacked by beginers who value google searches over practical experience.

 

[J. Hoffman]

What if an experienced maker forum was created, and to be able to post in it, you either need to be a paying knifemaker or supplier member, a member of ABS or the Guild, had your work published or have to be sponsored by at least two other makers on the forum. This would allow the newbys to read the posts, but would keep them from becoming trolls in the experienced forum. Of course they would still be welcome in the regular ST forum. I know that some experienced makers don't want to have to buy a knifemaker membership on this forum, but I bet that most of them are either members of ABS or the Guild.

 

[AVigil]

Talking to makers, I get the feeling that they are tired of posting their advice and methods, only to get attacked by beginers who value google searches over practical experience.

And several makers I have talk to have said it was not "Beginners" who attack them and send them insulting PM's and emails.

 

[Michael Rader]

I think it is a phase, like any other social venue will experience and it will pass.

I don't mind the crowd here at ST presently, but I don't chime in much because a lot of these questions have answers either in the Stickies or simple "common sense" that I don't even bother clicking. Heat-treating opinions and facts are interesting to read, but so charged with anger on both sides that I won't even think of talking about that here.

So, IMHO don't change anything and don't charge any new fees. Just think. You want some of the top makers coming back here? Invite them with your thoughtful questions. Don't argue if you disagree. And don't waste their time. Somehow the new-makers that want to glean some of the best tips and tricks from the more experienced of us need to also figure out how to make it worth our while. Ask yourselves what you can give back. If, for example, you want to learn the techniques and jigs I've developed for forging out integral bolster knives, then think about helping me somehow. Figure out how to bake me some verbal cookies or something, but don't just be part of this take-take-take-take generation. Figure it out and be ready to give back every bit of what you take in. That is what has gotten me to where I am and every one of the "experienced" makers here has done also.

Thanks,
-Michael,
ABS Mastersmith

 

[David Stifle]

Something is missing. The newest member here can post a picture. This does not require a paid membership, only use of a photo hosting site. Perhaps he was posting a picture with a link to his website?

There was quite a dustup a while ago about posting pictures AND not being a paying member. As I understood it, the decision was you cannot post pictures Unless you have a paid membership. Is this a fact?

 

[Rick Marchand]

And several makers I have talk to have said it was not "Beginners" who attack them and send them insulting PM's and emails.

I believe it. It seems things go from disagreement to insult pretty quickly, these days. Shame. At the same time, I feel that misinformation is often left unchallenged, and the concept of "everybody's view can be right" is pushed. I don't agree with this and have probably caused a few stressful threads, myself. I know that this is also an issue with a few makers who have left Shop Talk.

 

[Fletch Helical]

While I am so far away from an accomplished maker it's not even funny I'll suggest this: What about the idea of a "new makers" forum, introduction to knife making, or something of the sort. All the stickys to the new makers can be put there, folks new to the art will likely know to post newbie questions in there and so on. The only rub to that though is if none of the experienced guys decide to post in there for whatever reason it tends to be a "blind leading the blind" section. Or since we have mods on here and I'm sure this feature can be turned on if not already, have an infraction system in place for people who are just a chronic problem, paid members or not. Have a set of guidelines that will accrue infractions and after "x" amount you graduate to banned status, either temporary or permanent depending on the offense.