How do you get highly skilled makers to post here?

I think the one thing that truly bothers me is the "newbies" who don't do the basic
research of the forums before they ask a question. Look it up. If the info
isn't there, then ask. There is so much to be learned by doing basic research,
instead of taking the easy way out. When you ask a question, and an experienced
maker says, "not a good idea.", for pete's sake, don't argue it. You asked the question,
don't argue the answer. Pay freaking attention. I made my first knife 54 years ago,
but I won't insult a better maker than I when I ask a question and get an answer I
don't agree with. I add it to my store of knowledge.

Gee guys, listen to the mentors who have done the work and are willing to share. They
are a resource that can't be replaced. If you're too damn dumb or self important to listen,
DON"T ASK THE QUESTION, and go away, quietly. When you chase away the experienced smiths
who are willing to share and they stop contributing, you rob the rest who can benefit from their
experience.

Pay attention and be polite. It's a basic premise of a civilized, and contributory society. When you
piss off the folks who can help, and they stop contributing, EVERYONE LOSES!!

Bill
 
Im just an old blacksmith who plays at being a knifemaker from time to time..Ive done a bunch of WIP's on axes and hawks..Never on a knife because with the likes of Nick doing them I figured it would be redundant.
Im pretty thick skinned, having worked in prisons so long. Sticks/stones and all that..Anyway I do remember trying to help a guy out and a now banned member broke and and said to take "A real knifemakers" advice and this is how they did it..So I just let it drop, no skin off my nose..
You just cant let crap like that bother you. There is always a keyboard commando out there somewhere who thinks he has to wave him manhood all over the internet..Look over them..
The best advice I can give is this...Think twice before you post..Your not going to impress anyone by argueing behind a keyboard..Be the better man, take the highroad and let it go..If you dont have anything good to say on a particular thread then just dont say anything at all..
Nick, wish I had a good idea..I just dont, none tht will work anyway..
 
Nick, Kevin Cashen is another acomplished knifemaker who it seems no longer participates in this forum.
I think one thing that might help promote polite participation in this forum is for everyone to use their real name. It's too easy to have an "attitude" and then hide behind a user name.
Also, I like to see a makers work. Lots of members post here, and act like they are real pros, but never post a picture, so how does one tell the wanabe's from the real ones?
For this reason, I wish knife pictures would be welcome on this forum.
Nick, Bruce Bump, Kevin Cashen etc. have posted pictures and have proved that they deserve to be respectfully listened to.
 
Would it be possible to have all new threads evaluated by mods before being published?
You could all together eliminate useless/repeat questions. the standard reply would be much more effective, given the mod says 'this is why your thread was not approved'.
And after a certain number of quality posts, the user could be pre-approved for posting.

I too dislike the idea of forcing members to pay for knifemaker memberships just for posting in shop talk, that is elitist if you ask me.
 
BF seems to be all about paid memberships. Without one, you can't post pictures of your work.
 
If I may offer some advice, perhaps there should be a protected forum for knife makers who do have the experience. Paid membership, or something similar should be the first criteria for being allowed to even post in said forum.

From what I've seen, here and elsewhere, every maker has their own unique way of doing things. Some things are backed by hard science, like heat treating temps, others are tradition/art, like using troll snot as a quenchant.

I a big fan of searching for answers, so browsing threads is a vital part of my research. That is how I've discovered many tips and techniques that have assisted me with relearning this craft. I have even developed a few of my own, borrowing from more experienced makers. Lock the WIPs, so that no one but the original poster may edit or add to the thread. Those that disagree with methodology are free to do so, in a separate thread.

I know people avoid hurting the feelings of others, and as such tend to pad criticism, sometimes too much. Us new makers are not going to learn, without honesty, so should our work not measure up, please let us know why it does not, and how to fix it. I, for one, have no problem taking criticism and appreciate it when someone better than I takes their time to offer it. I was also spanked, as a child, so I am not under any illusion that I am gods gift to knife making. Perhaps a disclaimer, or a forum for newbies to post their work titled "the shark tank" would be an appropriate forum. Sharks are born swimming, anything less is bait. I do walk by a different drum entirely, though, so perhaps my advice should be ignored.

On a passing note, a buddy told me that it takes about ten thousand hours of practice to master something. I've got approximately nine thousand, eight hundred, and fifty hours left. Perhaps a counter showing how long each maker has been at work should be implemented, so that we can track where we buy our whiskey, so to speak. Speaking of whiskey, where did I put my damned glass...

Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being an elitist. It is the measure of quality.
 
I make and sell knives and have made and sold about 50 since April. I participated in a bushcraft challenge in 20111 and I participated in the KITH this year also. I still consider myself an intermediate maker and not a "highly skilled maker" but I have had nothing but good feedback and make and sell a knife for a fraction of the cost of a lot of folks. I do not do it as my main income but it sure has been handy while I try to finish school.

The reason I don't post much here is because I bought a standard membership thinking I could post and show some of my knives. But since I failed to get a knifemakers membership ( my fault ) and cannot upgrade without losing the first $30 or $40 I spent on a standard membership, i do not post much and I will not until my standard membership expires and I buy a knifemakers membership next fall.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Something is missing. The newest member here can post a picture. This does not require a paid membership, only use of a photo hosting site. Perhaps he was posting a picture with a link to his website?
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I will try and cover this issue. This may have been changed as I was away for a while. However the day this argument went down the rule was that if you did not have a paid membership you could not post a picture of a knife, period. Now the man that posted this picture just dropped by to share a picture of a knife he was taking to blade. This man used to be a member but due to the fact he was not happy or for whatever reason he moved on.

To me this man has single handed done more for knife making in the field of metallurgy and HT process. Many give him almost a God status because he has done the research to back up what he has to say and in many cases has published free info to all that would read it! Here is a link to some of his work!
http://www.cashenblades.com/heattreatment.html

However since he had no paid membership he was not allowed to post the picture here. Many thought it was an outrage and I agree with the many as any time that he has posted something and I had the sense to listen I learned something. When I first got into knife making my self adopted mentor told me to read any post he made and I would be sure to learn something!

However rules are rules and in and effort to show how silly I thought the picture posting rule was I agreed with the few that the rules had to be applied equally and since I stood up and said my piece I was told that my money was not needed as maybe I wasn't either.

Let me tell you this never talk about a man till you walk a mile in his shoes. Not one of you knows my current financial situation nor am I under any obligation to let any of you know. What tore it with me is the man that had that to say knew more about my situation than any! However when I tried to make a point that maybe the rules needed to be looked at I got burned.

If you want a section that all those who feel they need a place to play by themselves them by all means go ahead. However I do think that once the dust settles they may get tired of looking at one another!
We were all knew at this at one time or another and we all asked stupid questions, that is how some of us learned to do better. Now I don't profess to be so smart that I can't still learn from some one else!

In short I am not against a beginners section and more advanced section but if you think a paid membership will keep the Trools,(Really Trools) out your wrong because they will just pay the membership and become a part of it! Money is not always the answer to every question! one other thing somewhere up the line someone mentioned that maybe we all needed to go by our real names. When I first started this I didn't know a whole lot about anything but like any chat I went into you didn't use your real name. Thus Dixieblade57, however after I learned a little bit I realized it was better to use my real name as I do on my knives. I am known as, C Craft on all other forums I am a member of, the reason it has never been changed here, is this forum wanted $10.00 to do a name change. All the other forums said sure it may take a day or a week but their was no charge! Sometimes it is just the principal of things!

MY O2 and I am done with this discussion!
 
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I agree with most of this post with one exception, locking a WIP. Like you I do a lot of research on this forum. Sifting through the number of articles can be tedious but this forum is such a great source of knowledge and I especially love the WIPs. Keeping a WIP open allows me to ask the maker questions about something (a method, equipment, etc.) that I may not know much about. This does however allow the trolls that see themselves as internet sages to post as well. I am also no stranger to crticism and if someone can't take some healthy criticism then he/she probably shouldn't pursue knifemaking. Interesting analogy with the sharks there. I see it in a similar way, much like being dropped into the deep end of a pool. You can either sink or learn to swim. I may not be too successful, but I intend to learn to swim.

"Learning is not compulsory, neither is survival. - W. Edwards Demming."

nb11b said:
If I may offer some advice, perhaps there should be a protected forum for knife makers who do have the experience. Paid membership, or something similar should be the first criteria for being allowed to even post in said forum.

From what I've seen, here and elsewhere, every maker has their own unique way of doing things. Some things are backed by hard science, like heat treating temps, others are tradition/art, like using troll snot as a quenchant.

I a big fan of searching for answers, so browsing threads is a vital part of my research. That is how I've discovered many tips and techniques that have assisted me with relearning this craft. I have even developed a few of my own, borrowing from more experienced makers. Lock the WIPs, so that no one but the original poster may edit or add to the thread. Those that disagree with methodology are free to do so, in a separate thread.

I know people avoid hurting the feelings of others, and as such tend to pad criticism, sometimes too much. Us new makers are not going to learn, without honesty, so should our work not measure up, please let us know why it does not, and how to fix it. I, for one, have no problem taking criticism and appreciate it when someone better than I takes their time to offer it. I was also spanked, as a child, so I am not under any illusion that I am gods gift to knife making. Perhaps a disclaimer, or a forum for newbies to post their work titled "the shark tank" would be an appropriate forum. Sharks are born swimming, anything less is bait. I do walk by a different drum entirely, though, so perhaps my advice should be ignored.

On a passing note, a buddy told me that it takes about ten thousand hours of practice to master something. I've got approximately nine thousand, eight hundred, and fifty hours left. Perhaps a counter showing how long each maker has been at work should be implemented, so that we can track where we buy our whiskey, so to speak. Speaking of whiskey, where did I put my damned glass...

Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being an elitist. It is the measure of quality.
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The solution to a locked WIP is if you have a question for a specific maker, send them a PM... If it is something useful, either they can take time, should they choose, and add to the WIP, or even better, show how you implemented what you learned, in a separate WIP... Just a thought...

Regarding the sharks, sometimes the best way to learn is in a live fire situation, especially when you know what's at risk. I love this craft for two reasons. One, it is a creative outlet. Two, it gives me something to fight off sharks with :D
 
We have greats like Alan Davis, Karl Anderson, Jake Hoback!! I think people just need to treat others how they would like to be treated and we ll all get along!!
 
The posters in this thread obviously care about the quality of this forum, as do I. I noticed that the members in this thread represent somewhere in the neighborhood of 50,000 posts - there is an invested, and experienced concern present. I believe if the tone of this forum improves through increased respect, accomplished makers may return over time. In my opinion, tone is best controlled by peers, not regulations. Mods can lock threads and ban members, but we can control the tone by our words and our actions.

I'm also not as invested as most of you, so sometimes it may be easier for me to not say anything. On the other hand, I know I've posted when it was unnecessary. I will try to do better in that respect. I'm not fishing for validation, send me a PM if you want to comment on that last point.

The key is courtesy. If someone posts or asks something that seems stupid, kindly set them in the right direction. If they persist with their stupidity, or worse, antagonistic behavior - ignore them. Some statements are clearly designed to create verbal wars, and too many of us can't help but to pile on long after the correct point has been made.

If we, the concerned peers in this matter, do a few things to take control of the forum that we care about I'm sure it will get better, but it will take time and a touch of discipline. Show respect, ignore stupidity and trolls, direct people to the stickies and Stacy's custom Google search.

I visit this forum almost daily, and learn something almost every visit. It's a great place and we can make it better. Thank you to those who have helped me - many of you are in this very thread.

Erik
 
nb11b said:
The solution to a locked WIP is if you have a question for a specific maker, send them a PM... If it is something useful, either they can take time, should they choose, and add to the WIP, or even better, show how you implemented what you learned, in a separate WIP... Just a thought...

Regarding the sharks, sometimes the best way to learn is in a live fire situation, especially when you know what's at risk. I love this craft for two reasons. One, it is a creative outlet. Two, it gives me something to fight off sharks with :D
Click to expand...

Better- or should I say, more strict- moderation helps in this regard as well. If a thread in the WIP section is not a WIP, move it to the appropriate forum. If a post in someones WIP is not entirely on topic, or adding to the discussion, delete it. It sounds harsh at first, but it really cleans stuff up.
 
Rick Marchand said:
At the same time, I feel that misinformation is often left unchallenged, and the concept of "everybody's view can be right" is pushed.
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I respectfully, but very strongly disagree. I cannot recall any question or example by a newbie in the last few years that was not met with at least two answers based entirely on honest, sincere firsthand experience. I have also seen many, many instances of controversial, or ill-founded, or just plain dumb protocols being challenged and disproven. That includes not just "newbies", but well-known "masters".

I am sincerely confused and disturbed by this controversy. ST is much more tightly-moderated now than it was when I first stumbled across it several years ago, and that's been beneficial to us all. Due to having a sincere and dedicated mod, ego-tripping trolls have been sent on their way.

I'm very much aware that my point of view on this matter is not terribly popular. I have been subjected to public personal attacks and private messages and insults I wouldn't inflict on my worst enemy, simply for saying that I think ST is doing pretty well, and that those of us with experience would be wise to employ some discretion before getting all bent out shape.
 
Bill DeShivs said:
BF seems to be all about paid memberships. Without one, you can't post pictures of your work.
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Yeah, that's kind of how it works. The software and servers are costly. God forbid the folks who run this forum would dare to break even or turn a profit. Should we ask the forum owner to support us for free?

I can (and do) post my work on photobucket and FaceBook for free. Guess how many sales that generates? Zero in the last 4 years.
I pay a very small yearly fee for the privilege of posting and selling my work here, and it's proven to be a very good investment. I pay much more for my website, and it barely breaks even.
 
Rick Marchand said:
I believe it. It seems things go from disagreement to insult pretty quickly, these days. Shame. At the same time, I feel that misinformation is often left unchallenged, and the concept of "everybody's view can be right" is pushed. I don't agree with this and have probably caused a few stressful threads, myself. I know that this is also an issue with a few makers who have left Shop Talk.
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I believe this may be part of it also. Sometimes one person's misinformation is another's advice and methods. I really appreciate that Nick W. didn't just walk away, but took a constructive step. I think moderating is a difficult and thankless job, but possibly influential.
 
Well I don't know if I fit into this 'accomplished' category, or whatever ...
but I took a LOOOOONG time off this forum and have only ventured back to poke my head in here the last couple weeks.

I'll tell you why I vanished and why I spend much more time on other forums.

It's not the new makers asking basic questions.

I've heard the term "noisy" to describe BF in general, and that seems to fit. It's kind of the curse of being such a large forum. It's a HUGE user base and that means more, well ... noise.

Knives and knifemaking is a hobby to most here. When it's you're profession you're perspective changes, and maybe there's less 'bandwidth' for hobbyists kinda dissing and snarking. It seems more worthwhile to hang with colleagues that know who you are, are more or less in the same boat, deal with the same problems and maybe bring a more focused perspective.

I think the 'noise' from outside ST is a big deal. To me, much of the 'outside' subforums are kind of a wasteland, so there's much less of a 'community' to participate in.
If I had a little time, I would go to click on the BF link and feel tired and think, "Oh, why bother!" and go somewhere else. I know this is a pretty common experience.

I don't know if any of that is helpful ... I don't know how to fix it.
I just wish the best for all the quality folks here past and present.
 
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On any forum, decorum and respect should be the foundation for discussion and the exchange of ideas. I see this take place at the shows where people are face to face and can not be anonymous.

A sad observation for me is the rhetoric that is exchanged on sites like Facebook. It is far beyond distasteful; its obscene.
I don't go there.

I like hanging out with people that are grounded in respect as a matter of course; all that comes after that is enjoyable.
 
This has always been my favorite forum. Partially because I found it shortly after I started making knives. I was guilty of some of the typical newbie behaviour. Sorry about that and hope I have made up for it as time has past. I have enjoyed the friendship and advice of many here and that is why it is still at the top of my knife forum list. I have sadly noticed the slow and steady loss of some of the more experienced makers. Some because they got sick of the attitude of a percentage of the newbies, some because of the attitude of those who questioned their methods. Some of those did have questionable methods and positions and hated it when asked pointed questions about those methods. There has also been a very few of the more experience who constantly attacked when confronted with the "science". Some left because of loyalty to those who were attacked or questioned. Why some people can't let things go is a question we will never solve. If someone doesn't believe in evolution and I do, I will make my arguments, listen to his and then move on. If he is my friend I will accept that as part of him and keep it in the background. If he is not my friend why bother with it after the initial discussion?

I think most of us here have heard enough of the quench oil and heat treatment wars and have made up our minds are to our choices. These 2 things seem to be the biggest factors in the pissing matches. They are kind of like arm wrestling and pool in a biker bar. Of course we wouldn't be much of a knife forum if they didn't get discussed, but hey this isn't a bar, most of us are not drunk and should have some self control. Say you piece and shut up already. If the person who poised the initial question doesn't have enough information to make his own decision he should be pointed at some of the older better threads about those subjects and the thread locked. Don't let it get to a total pissing match. Enough has been said about Parks, Canola, bear fat, edge hardening vs spine tempering, forging temps, and the like that after the initial question the thread can be shunted to past posts and closed. Those of us who have been around a while have heard enough, the newbies can read all the past threads to get enough.

Plus everyone who has been here very long knows everyone else's HOT BUTTONS. When those come into play everyone needs to simply state THEIR OWN POSITION in a polite manner and move on.

I agree with Fred, a little respect goes a long ways.

If you still believe the earth is flat, fine, just stay away from the edges please.

PS: on the respect thing, I think giving your name and some basic information is a sign of maturity and will help with the respect thing, If you don't value me enough to give me those, why should I return enough respect for you to give you my time and knowledge? Guy walks up to me and abruptly demands directions will get far less help than one who tells me a bit about who and why and then asks. Plus, it gives me an idea of where to start. If I know you are from a town nearby it might be easier to explain that if your are from Calcutta.
 
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Let me start by saying that I am a newbie and I have learned more here than any other place on the web or in books, so this sight is to be highly commended for its contribution to my, and I'm sure many others progression in this field.

That being said the pervasive attitude here from alot of the experienced guys is "just read the stickies kid it's all in there". I know that I personally got bashed for asking a question when I first joined that I had spent a considerable amount of time researching and did not find an answer for in the stickies, or on Google. While I have fairly thick skin that incident has changed the way I use this forum, in that I very rarely ask a question here anymore. I'm not saying that any/all of my questions would be of "value" to the form in general, but the more threads there are about a given subject the higher the likelyhood the information will be found using the "search this forum" function. Maybe the answer is that in order for a newbie to be able to ask for help in a thread, the "search function" would already have been activated and some time spent reseaching the issue before the question is posted.

I have also read some of the threads from new makers that have in all likelyhood ticked off many of you seasoned guys with their arrogance/attitude. My reaction has run the gamut from amusement to shock that someone could be so ignorant, argumentative,inconsiderate. Some of the "push back" is likely because some poeple don't take criticism very well, and some is actually likely because the criticism was pretty harsh. In short it's like most arguments both sides are to blame!

That being said, I understand there is a price to be paid for improvement in any craft. In my case I have done it "on the backs" of the experienced makers here and on other sights and would love to be able to "pay it back" in some form or another. A previous poster mentioned "verbal cookies". So here is mine.

Thank You, a thousand times over.

Jeff
 
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