How do YOU get your knives hair-popping, or at least shaving sharp

The buffer probably worked because the angle at the very edge is more obtuse than you think. The soft surface of the buffer easily conformed to the pre-set bevel and made contact with the higher angle at the apex of the edge. This caused a convex shape to be applied and if you try and switch back to stones you will need to re-set the bevel to a V grind. What you were probably doing is trying to sharpen at one angle but after not getting a sharp edge decided to reduce the angle thinking it would make it sharp. Without grinding the bevel completely to the apex its my guess your edge looked more like one that was overly rounded or un-intentionally microbeveled. You can grind all day on a bevel like that and never make it sharp.

Making it look pretty is not always the goal but its been my experience that the better it looks the better it is. Weather it be at 600 grit or 60k grit the better you use that stone or tool the better your edge will be and look.

With hand sharpening often its said to hold a consistent angle, though this is important its not really telling the whole story. As your edge makes contact to the stone it will always be at a slightly different point and never makes complete contact between shoulder and apex. To even out the scratch pattern many strokes must be made to blend the bevel together. If you look at the bevel after your med or fine stones you will see many horizontal lines on the bevel, these are all the single points of contact from the stone made on each pass. If the lines do not evenly flow from shoulder to edge apex its likely your edge will have a number of issues with the main one being a dull edge.

Its not controlling one angle but blending many. Feel and sound also play a big part in letting you know when the apex has been reached. If the med/brown stones are as coarse as you have I'd suggest getting a coarse diamond hone or some 220 and 600 grit sandpaper to wrap around your SM rods. If your edge is not sharp or at least close from initial grinding then progressing to finer grits will be of no help, usually it just makes it duller.
 
Thanks for the advice. I was actually just working my way through your thread for the second time. I've got a couple that are shaving sharp now, but that Benchmade 530 is really stymieing me. I have a couple coarse stones that I rarely use; so far the most successful tools for me have been a set of DMT diamond hones, although I only have through EF, and then I have to go to strops. I don't think my strops are all that expert, however, so that might also have been contributing to the problem. I'm a lefty like you as well; that photo of how to hold the knife was very helpful. I've learned a lot tonight!

I used the same technique on the 530 as I did which worked on the Manix 2 and the R.A.M., but so far it's not done anything close to as sharp. Used the coarse at 15 degrees until I had a burr along the whole edge, which I believe means I got the grind to the apex, and then smoothed that out with the fine, EF, and then strops and the buffer. It's already a thin blade, so I'd think it should cut better than the others, and it's 154CM, so you'd think it would take an edge as well as the Manix 2, which is also in 154CM, but there's just a huge difference. The HK 14650 took a MUCH sharper edge, and that's a Benchmade also. It also looks pretty close to a mirror edge to a visual inspection, and there's no shine looking edge-on, but the proof is in the pudding, and it just doesn't cut as well as the other knives. So I take it I probably made it convex/microbevel at some point, and need to reprofile the edge?
 
I believe it was Noctis3880 that made a recent thread in the maintenance section about his learning experience with some stropping problems. I posted a picture that might be of interest to you in that thread. If you look at it remember that even though the finish is around 12K the extremely small defect in the edge makes it unable to shave. Its a example of grinding just shy of the apex.

Work more with your stones, by the EF 1200 mesh stone you should be close to the sharpness of a utility razor/box cutter. Actually you should be shaving sharp by the Coarse diamond.

As for your BM being sharper, it has a lot to do with blade thickness. Thinner blades always feel sharper.
 
I do this by convexing my knives, I never could get a V edge to shave. Although a few of my friends do by using spyderco's sharpmaker.

I start with 100 grit to knock down the shoulders, then move to 400. Then to 800, to 1000, then 2000 grits. Then I strop on leather, one side with coarse compound and the other side fine compound. Lately I have been experimenting with a thick piece of horse hide with mothers polish embedded for an extra clean shine.. Hair popping sharp if I've ever seen it.

Examples:
RATclose.jpg


Kershawknife.jpg
 
i got a question for the guys using the dmt diafolds which ones are you using ?
i just got the red and blue one fine and course ! and want to know what i can
do to get that kind of hair popping edge ?

frank
 
I've got the blue/black extra coarse/coarse, and the red/green fine/extra fine. I use mine to carve out a 30something back bevel and then do a 40 degree microbevel with the sharpmaker. That gets my knives reasonably sharp but not pretty. If you want to get a mirror look, you should pick up the exta extra fine diafold also. They have the white ceramic diafold too. Each time you step up, you smooth out the grind lines from the previous diafold. You'll probably need to finish up your mirror edge with some stropping compound to really make it glow. ;)
 
I start with the chef's choice commercial model, about 300 bucks, and finish with a sharpmaker. The chef's choice really thins out those obtuse angles, like benchmade knives come with, quickly.
 
If you work slowly and deliberately with a bucket of water, high quality belts, and a 1x30 belt sander you can sharpen anything. Start with an 80 grit to form a burr, move to a 120 grit and refine the burr -- and then switch to some other mechanism to remove the burr and/or refine the edge further. The sharpmaker, or a similar crock stick setup, is actually pretty good at deburring and refining a bevel made on a belt sander.

People have already made this sort of observation -- but, I'll reinforce it: people who have trouble producing good edges often aren't spending enough time at the coarser grits -- they usually aren't forming a healthy burr because they usually aren't grinding the edge to the apex. People who are having sharpening trouble are often very frustrated, and because of this frustration they can't commit their attention to an ordered progression of sharpening steps; it's not that they aren't willing to spend a lot of time trying to get the edge sharp -- they just don't know what step they should be at, or how much time they should spend on it. They want to see results for their hard work -- and they don't have enough confidence in what they are doing to fully commit to the sharpening instructions. I think they are often, implicitly, assuming that an edge gradually becomes sharper and sharper -- and that's why they are almost always switching between sharpening steps, testing their bastard-edges, and looking to see if they are on the right track.

What you need is for them to get to rock bottom. Let them tire themselves out with their technique. Then -- build then back up with a dramatic, clear, and quick example of how to sharpen.

Controlled use of a belt-sander with coarse belts will work up a burr before they know what's happening. Since the rest of the sharpening process requires that the apex be ground, and a burr formed -- and, by itself, this will not give the novice a direct sign of the good edge to come -- it's good to get that step out of the way before doubt and confusion can set in.

A 1x30 sander can be really, really, cheap -- the startup costs are also small for a small collection of premium belts -- and a lansky small crock stick setup is twenty bucks worth of quick, precise, deburring.

Many people also swear by paper wheels. I think they might be an even quicker way to work up and refine a burr. I have never used them, but Richard J has basically sold me on getting one.
 
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The OP had commented that the WEPS appeared to not be easy to use, in fact it is definately easy to use. IF that is something you think you may be interested in don't shy away from it if you think that is an issue.
It is not inexpensive but they are offering a 20% discount and I believe the system is worth it based on a myriad of factors - results being one of them.
Richard tauts the value of the paper wheel system and rightly so again, results speak for themselves and seeing as how I have not yet attempted that system, I will/can not comment as I would about the WEPS.
As for shaving hair, we all seem to use different parameters of measure to declare "This knife is sharp" some its paper, toilet paper, push cuts, hair shaving/popping/whittling...
I dunno.:confused: one mans sharp is another's butter knife I suppose.
 
hkpokes_you said:
...people who have trouble producing good edges often aren't spending enough time at the coarser grits -- they usually aren't forming a healthy burr because they usually aren't grinding the edge to the apex. People who are having sharpening trouble are often very frustrated, and because of this frustration they can't commit their attention to an ordered progression of sharpening steps; it's not that they aren't willing to spend a lot of time trying to get the edge sharp -- they just don't know what step they should be at, or how much time they should spend on it. They want to see results for their hard work -- and they don't have enough confidence in what they are doing to fully commit to the sharpening instructions. I think they are often, implicitly, assuming that an edge gradually becomes sharper and sharper -- and that's why they are almost always switching between sharpening steps, testing their bastard-edges, and looking to see if they are on the right track.
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I agree with this. If you have a Sharpmaker, tomorrow, don't drink any caffeine. Pull it out when you get home and tightly wrap some 100 grit sandpaper around the rods. With a Sharpie, mark the edges of the blade and use the flat sides until the Sharpie marks are gone and you get a nice bevel set. Remove the sandpaper and follow the instructions that came w/ it. You'll be shaving sharp in no time.
 
knifenut1013 said:
Tools don't make you better and changing the tools you use only makes learning more complex.

Technique/skill is #1 and the tools you use (EP, WE, grinders, or by hand with stones) are just personal preference. I can get hair shaving with a 100 grit stone but its not going to be a smooth shave. To make it smoother and reach hair popping, tree topping, or hair splitting the scratch pattern must be reduced so the edge width is small enough to sever the object. Edge roughness in relation to grit used will make up the amount of drag or pull on the hairs or object being cut.

None of it makes a difference if your not grinding to the apex of the edge though. Sharpening is 3 basic steps, Grinding, Sharpening, and finishing. If one step is not completed correctly none of the other steps will have proper effect.
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Well said.
 
As Knifenut, Hkpokes you and others have said outright or alluded to and I am guilty of.... The initial step which happens to be the most nerve racking - Grinding, is the step that is probably most often rushed or at least not taken to fruition.
Then the person sharpening gets frustrated when the ensuing steps do not yield the oft read about nirvana.
 
rubiconss said:
As Knifenut, Hkpokes you and others have said outright or alluded to and I am guilty of.... The initial step which happens to be the most nerve racking - Grinding, is the step that is probably most often rushed or at least not taken to fruition.
Then the person sharpening gets frustrated when the ensuing steps do not yield the oft read about nirvana.
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:thumbup:

I spent the better part of 20 years 'attempting' to sharpen my knives, and attaining disappointing results, for precisely these reasons (not quite taking the initial bevel to full apex). In retrospect, had I the ability to go back and start over again, the VERY FIRST thing I'd do would be to get as much magnification as possible, and USE IT. So many problems can be seen, and immediately understood, if you take the time to actually inspect the edge closely. The nice thing about a truly sharp edge is, when you look at it VERY closely, it's plainly obvious as to WHY it's so sharp. Same holds true for a dull edge.

No matter which method/technique/tools you use, make sure you can actually SEE the fruits of your labor. The 'feel' aspect will come with time & lots of practice.
 
rubiconss said:
Dave (or anyone that has one) what form of magnification do you suggest?
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I'm still OBSESSING (:p) over what I'll upgrade to next. The point I was emphasizing, is that using more is always better, so far as I'm concerned. I recently 'upgraded' to a lowly 10X lighted magnifier which, in itself, was a significant eye-opener. At this point, I'd think anything at/above 20x would be great. And many here are using 100X or more, with digital/usb type magnifiers in particular.

Whatever you look for, make sure it's used with very good lighting, too.
 
kawr said:
I dont know what you are talking about but every single one of my Spyderco knives came hair popping sharp from the factory except for my Endura 4 saber grind. Like you said its probably because you have pubic hairs for arm hairs.
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Factory bevel is a bit more obtuse than I've seen in the past, but a few swipes on the Sharpmaker 40 degree rods and it pops hairs... One of these days I gotta rebevel it though.
 
hkpokes_you said:
If you work slowly and deliberately with a bucket of water, high quality belts, and a 1x30 belt sander you can sharpen anything. Start with an 80 grit to form a burr, move to a 120 grit and refine the burr -- and then switch to some other mechanism to remove the burr and/or refine the edge further. The sharpmaker, or a similar crock stick setup, is actually pretty good at deburring and refining a bevel made on a belt sander.
Click to expand...

80 grit for sharpening ? don't you think it's kinda overkill? you can grind a blade with a 80 grit belt ...
 
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