How do you sell yours Knives?

[Les Robertson]

Hi Joss,

Have to disagree with you as well.

How about tactical folders that can be taken apart and interchanged with others?

How about the makers who grind 50 of one blade and send them all off to heat treat. Upon their return they will be the same except for the handle material the maker or client chooses.

How about the "jigs" that are set up in most shops to turn out consistent product that can be interchanged with other parts to create different looks on a similar frame.

As I posted earlier:

In my Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, a commodity is defined as:

1) Something Useful or valuable

2) An economic good

3) An article of commerce

I think you would agree that Custom Knives fit into all three of those categories.

Where are you getting your definition of a commodity from?

WWG

 

[Joss]

Les - I'm going to have to disagree with Webster and you on this. I don't have a problem with that since the term commodity is a technical term in economics, not something that Webster is qualified to define. If you think that the "commodity market" include unique pieces, nothing I can say will change your mind.

Your (and Webster's) view is derived from classical Marxist theory. See here for examples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity

A commodity is something for which there is demand, but which is supplied without qualitative differentiation across a given market. Characteristic of commodities is that their prices are determined as a function of their market as a whole. Well-established physical commodities have actively traded spot and derivative markets. Generally, these are basic resources and agricultural products such as iron ore, crude oil, coal, ethanol, sugar, soybeans, aluminium, rice, wheat, gold and silver. However, the process of commoditization is ongoing as markets evolve. In essence, commoditization occurs as a good or service becomes undifferentiated across its supply base by the diffusion of the intellectual capital necessary to acquire or produce it efficiently. As such, many products which formerly carried premium margins for market participants have become commodities, such as generic pharmaceuticals and silicon chips.

...whereas...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_(Marxism)

In classical political economy and especially Karl Marx's critique of political economy, a commodity is any good or service produced by human labour and offered as a product for general sale on the market. Some other priced goods are also treated as commodities, e.g. human labor-power, works of art and natural resources, even although they may not be produced specifically for the market, or be non-reproducible goods.

Marx's analysis of the commodity is intended to help solve the problem of what establishes the economic value of goods, using the labor theory of value.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin, good thread. Even though I don't comment on all, I do read them all.

How I prefer to sell my knives:

First choice....Make a knife and offer it for sale on my site.

Second..........Sell them off my table at shows.

Third.............Sell to dealers.

Orders are out of the question now, I have too many. Which makes the above three choices very difficult.

Hi Don.
From a maker's standpoint, I was just wondering how concerned if at all makers are as to collectors and even dealers selling their knives substantially below the price the maker offers them?

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Stephen,

I have to admit even in Grad School Karl Marx doesn't get much coverage. Did a little research that might help resolve this issue. This is from Wikipdeia:

Characteristics of commodity

In Marx's theory, a commodity has value, which represents a quantity of human labor. The fact that it has value implies straightaway that people try to economise its use. A commodity also has a use value, an exchange value and a price.

* It has a use value because, by its intrinsic characteristics, it can satisfy some human need or want, physical or ideal. By nature this is a social use value, i.e. the object is useful not just to the producer but has a use for others generally.

* It has an exchange value, meaning that a commodity can be traded for other commodities, and thus give its owner the benefit of others' labor (the labor done to produce the purchased commodity).

* Price is then the monetary expression of exchange-value (but exchange value could also be expressed as a direct trading ratio between two commodities without using money).

According to the labor theory of value, product-values in an open market are regulated by the average socially necessary labour time required to produce them, and price relativities are ultimately governed by the law of value.

[edit] Illustration

To understand the concept of a commodity, consider a chair. It is a commodity if the chair is a tradeable product of human work possessing a social use-value. By contrast, a fallen log of deadwood sat upon in the forest is not a commodity, as it was not produced by human work for the purpose of trade. A chair created by a hobbyist as a gift to someone is not a commodity. Nor is a chair a commodity (as a chair) if its only use would be as scrap firewood (unless one purchases a chair specifically to chop it up for fire wood). A chair that nobody could sit on has no use-value, and cannot be a commodity (unless it has an ornamental value, e.g. in a doll's house).

We can insert a custom knife for the chair. As is pointed out in the paragraph above, the chair if given as a gift (no money was paid for it) or it was broken up and used as scrap firewood is not a commodity.

However, if the knife is sold or traded for other goods, it is a commodity if

a tradeable product of human work possessing a social use-value.

. This according to Karl Marx.

He obviously had a very good grasp of capitalism. Perhaps he should have written the "Capitalist Manifesto".

WWG

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Joss,

I wrote the above for Stephen, but you can read it as well.

Apparently Wikipedia is confused as to what Karl wrote.

* It has a use value because, by its intrinsic characteristics, it can satisfy some human need or want, physical or ideal. By nature this is a social use value, i.e. the object is useful not just to the producer but has a use for others generally.

* It has an exchange value, meaning that a commodity can be traded for other commodities, and thus give its owner the benefit of others' labor (the labor done to produce the purchased commodity).

* Price is then the monetary expression of exchange-value (but exchange value could also be expressed as a direct trading ratio between two commodities without using money).

According to the labor theory of value, product-values in an open market are regulated by the average socially necessary labour time required to produce them, and price relativities are ultimately governed by the law of value.

Sure sounds like a custom knife to me.

What can I say I am an Avant-garde Economist.

When I created my Vanguard line of knives, the concept was to build each series of knives exactly the same...no exceptions. This was done to make each knife a viable internet commodity. In that when you wrote you had a Walter Brend DOA (for example) for sale. There would be no confusion as to what it was. This would eliminate a lot of questions, need for photos and speed up the transaction process.

Regardless of what commodity definition you want to use, the Vanguard knives are a commodity. Consequently, custom knives can be a commodity.

What can I say, I think "Outside the Box".

WWG
Avant-garde custom knife economist.

 

[Joss]

Hi Stephen,

I have to admit even in Grad School Karl Marx doesn't get much coverage. Did a little research that might help resolve this issue. This is from Wikipdeia:

We can insert a custom knife for the chair. As is pointed out in the paragraph above, the chair if given as a gift (no money was paid for it) or it was broken up and used as scrap firewood is not a commodity.

However, if the knife is sold or traded for other goods, it is a commodity if . This according to Karl Marx.

He obviously had a very good grasp of capitalism. Perhaps he should have written the "Capitalist Manifesto".

WWG

No, Karl didn't have a good grasp of Capitalism. His theoretical framework is meant to center every value in terms of manual labor - i.e., he wants to remove any intelectual input, things such as unique design, brand, reputation, and the like. All the "bourgois" values if you wish. This was very convenient for him, but we (should) know better. Things are different, there's a difference between a leader and a follower, there's a difference between unique design and run-off-the-mill (or the CNC ), even if both knives cut just as well.

 

[Don Hanson III]

Hi Don.
From a maker's standpoint, I was just wondering how concerned if at all makers are as to collectors and even dealers selling their knives substantially below the price the maker offers them?

Hi Kevin,
It is very important to me. I like to see my knives sell at or above the prices that I charge for them. I've been fortunate in this area, I only know of a couple times one of mine went below what it should have.

 

[Stephen F]

Well now I'm considering trading my collection for a box load of Cold Steel and SOG's ...... after all they are all the same!

Cheers,

Stephen

 

[Joss]

Apparently Wikipedia is confused as to what Karl wrote.

* It has a use value because, by its intrinsic characteristics, it can satisfy some human need or want, physical or ideal. By nature this is a social use value, i.e. the object is useful not just to the producer but has a use for others generally.

* It has an exchange value, meaning that a commodity can be traded for other commodities, and thus give its owner the benefit of others' labor (the labor done to produce the purchased commodity).

* Price is then the monetary expression of exchange-value (but exchange value could also be expressed as a direct trading ratio between two commodities without using money).

According to the labor theory of value, product-values in an open market are regulated by the average socially necessary labour time required to produce them, and price relativities are ultimately governed by the law of value.

Sure sounds like a custom knife to me.

I can't believe I'm reading that. The above says that any object is a commodity because it's value comes only from how well it performs it function and how much work goes into getting this "use value".

Surely you cannot think that. Surely you don't think that a Bose and a Remington should have the same value because, after all, they perform the same function equally well?

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Joss,

He had a good grasp during the 1800's. You are correct he tried to eliminate the intellectual "property" to make things as simple as possible...all working for the good of all. Except for those in charge who deserve to enjoy all the things the "common" man should not.

The difference in a unique design and a CNC made knife is only different until the unique design or mechanism is either copied or sold. At that point the commoditization process begins. And the "discussion" starts a new.

I remember when the speed safe was unique. There was only one place it could be found. Now it can literally be found all over the world.

As Burt Foster once wrote (on another forum) "I never had an idea that didn't originate in my wallet." The Entrepreneur Businessman in me took that as a compliment. Later it was explained to me that Burt was insulting me. I found that odd coming from another "businessman."

As the first rule of business is; Make A Profit!

As without a profit nothing else in a business is possible.

WWG

 

[Joss]

The difference in a unique design and a CNC made knife is only different until the unique design or mechanism is either copied or sold. At that point the commoditization process begins. And the "discussion" starts a new.

So the Crawford Kasper is worth as much as the CRKT Kasper? Of course not - people buy one or the other for different reason, and they pay a different price. (Now, if you are saying that the aura of the Crawford Kasper is negatively impacted, as might be prices, I don't disagree, but that doesn't make it anywhere close to a commodity.)

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Stephen and Joss,

There are many who are hard pressed to believe otherwise.

Go on to the different factory forums and engage the collectors there that your knives are better than theirs. Hunker down and prepare for "incoming".

On a Global scale every knife is in competition with every other knife. As ultimately they all do what their intended purpose was...they cut. Granted some better than others.

You are exhibiting a perspective that I have been called "arrogant and conceited " for. That custom knives are better than factory knives. The fact that they are made by one person makes them better than knives produced either by a small group of well trained workers or in a factory.

The FBI tells us the knife that is used to kill more people than any other knife....The Butcher knife found in the Kitchen. Why? Because that is where the woman is being beaten and finally gets tired of it and grabs that Big 'Ol Knife and drives it into here boyfriend/Husband.

No, its not a Randall, Brend, Busse or Strider that has most kills. It is a factory made Butcher knife. Cost...well under $100.

Obviously, like you I am a Cutlery Snob. If I weren't I, like most "custom" knife dealers would have factory knives for sale on my site and table at shows.

I don't pigeon hole custom knives from the others when it comes to the over all Global Business Perspective.

I understand that I operate in a, Globally, very small niche market. Selling things that no one really needs. As the chores of cutting, chopping and slicing could be fulfilled by any manner of less expensive cutlery.

Now you are starting to understand why I want to create an "investment" brand on custom knives. This "Branding" will take these high priced cutters to the next level.

WWG

 

[Les Robertson]

Joss,

Obviously the Crawford Kasper and the CRKT Kasper are not the same. Nor were they intended to be.

The Crawford Kasper was built by Pat Crawford to the specifications of Bob Kasper to be a folding version of the Kasper Fighter that Al Polkowski made. It was designed and subsequently built to fill a "particular need" and for Pat to make money.

Pat Licensed the folder to CRKT to make money and receive some additional market name recognition.

Pat by the way was an accountant before he became a full time custom knife maker. Pat loves to make knives. However, as a full time (Sole support) he knows he has to make a profit on each knife. Let there be no doubt that Pat is an exceptional maker (check out some of his early fixed blades, especially the sub-hilts).

The CRKT Kasper was built for CRKT to make money. That is it.

Read the above post.

WWG

 

[Joss]

Go on to the different factory forums and engage the collectors there that your knives are better than theirs. Hunker down and prepare for "incoming".

...

You are exhibiting a perspective that I have been called "arrogant and conceited " for. That custom knives are better than factory knives.

Certainly not, I'm on record for saying that from a purely utilitarian standpoint, factory knives are as good if not better than customs. I don't buy customs because I think they cut better - I would have to agree to Marx's view that this "use value" is the only determinant to a knife's value and in such a case I would never spend those sums.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin,

Lets start by seeing your answers, to your questions.

P

What’s your preferred method of selling knives?
I don’t have any one preferred method as it depends on the particular knife and circumstances surrounding it.

For example:

• If selling a piece from a maker who I know that a particular internet dealer has a strong following for, than I will consign the piece with that dealer as he will most likely get the most for the knife. I have NO problem in giving a dealer a consignment fee as long as it’s ultimately netting me more for the knife.

• If it’s a Fisk knife and it’s around Micro Show time, I will carry the piece to the show as many Fisk collectors (with $$$ in hand) are there ready to buy.

• I believe in getting my knives as much exposure as possible by posting photos in multiple places which very often results in my getting request for “first right of refusal” upon my eventual sale of knives. I document these potential buyers, so at times it’s only takes a phone call to initiate a sale. Several times I have gotten random calls form collectors asking to purchase particular knives, again as a result of seeing a photo posted somewhere.

• Of course there’s eBay. I have had limited success selling mid-priced range knives from very well known makers there, but would usually rather use other means.

• I have sold two very nice Fisk Bowies on the Blade Forums “exchange” area; however one fell through when it came time to pay. IMO this area is MUCH better suited for buying than selling.

• Makers will at times help you find buyers for knives from their collector base.

Is it important for you to get as much as you can, or just to get rid of them as fast as possible with the least effort?
I always manage the sale to realize the maximum sales/profit amount or lesson the loss. I do this by first choosing the best method of sale from above and just being patient.

Does the way in which you sell your knives affect others?
Of course it does as by selling to low below market or too high above market can have a negative impact on collector’s knife values and maker’s knife pricing structure.

Pricing and selling knives can be a slippery slope, and of course the knife owner has the right to sell for anything he wants, but then IMO, you have a responsibility to some degree to help uphold the knife community.

 

[Michael Starr]

I have nothing of worthiness to contribute at this time but...


I call "first" dibs on Stephen F's collection

 

[ROBB]

I just wanted to mention a Fox news report on Wikipedia.They started a new thing were anyone can change a definition or article,if a certain number of users agree it will be changed.Fox found quite a few outright errors and misconceptions especially comming from left wing slants.

 

[Sam Salvati]

Kevin I just wish my knives would sell in the first place.

 

[Senator]

I just wanted to mention a Fox news report on Wikipedia.They started a new thing were anyone can change a definition or article,if a certain number of users agree it will be changed.Fox found quite a few outright errors and misconceptions especially comming from left wing slants.

Study: Wikipedia as accurate as Britannica

Wikipedia is about as good a source of accurate information as Britannica, the venerable standard-bearer of facts about the world around us, according to a study published this week in the journal Nature.

 

[Raymond Richard]

I prefer to sell at shows. That way the customer can meet the maker and handle knives that he may have seen pictures of. There's also a greater satisfaction when they do sell at shows but can also pretty depressing when they don't sell. On line sales are fine and I also do a lot on consignment.