How do you test/challenge your work?

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Wowndeye

Joined
Apr 15, 2014
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So long story short, I will be completing a few different small blades I've been working on this coming week that I'm making out of 1080. The first one I finish I want to "abuse" to assess the quality of my work. I want to make sure my heat treat and all that have gone well so I'm curious what sort of tests or challenges those that have been making knives for a while put their blades through.

I want to get the most out of what I'm working with and like I said, I'm not even done with my first blades and I have a couple people interested in buying a couple possibly, but don't even want to consider asking for money for something that isn't up to par. I personally only have ever owned one knife that I consider to be nice, a Cold Steel Ti-Lite and the majority of the work it does is sharpening my toothpicks so I don't really feel I know how to compare quality at this point or assess "success"! :)

I'm curious I guess where you were at when you felt good enough about your work to sell it and lessons you learned afterwards.
 
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Concerning blade performance/geometry/HT, just cut a whole lot of what the knife was designed to cut. It will either work well for a couple hours or you'll be hating it within minutes, and you'll know you need to change something.

It's really that simple. :)
 
james terrio said:
Concerning blade performance/geometry/HT, just cut a whole lot of what the knife was designed to cut. It will either work well for a couple hours or you'll be hating it within minutes, and you'll know you need to change something.

It's really that simple. :)
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Quoted for truth!

Don't try to fold it in half, tie it in a knot, or chop junk cars in half. Just do things you intended the knife to do when you designed it. If it does them well you're good to go. If something needs to be changed, you'll know pretty quick, just like James said.
 
Thanks guys! I'm sooo close to being done. I should have a finished edge on them tomorrow night!

Looks like I'll be eating a steak then! ;)
 
Wowndeye said:
Thanks guys! I'm sooo close to being done. I should have a finished edge on them tomorrow night!

Looks like I'll be eating a steak then! ;)
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Did you make steak knives? :D

While you need to use your own knives extensively and get some idea how they work, most folks also give them out to friends and family for the same purpose to get more "data points".

In my opinion this is a good starting point, but unless you have a lot of experience with good high quality knives your impression of your own work could be a little rosey.

I think you need to do comparative cut testing against known good work and see how well your work cuts, how long it holds an edge and how comfortable it is in hand, compared to other known good work. This is when most new makers have those two common epiphanies: 1. their HT needs work, 2. their grinds are too thick.

It also helps to go to a big show (Blade is coming up) and handle other maker's work and get an idea of the fit and finish and balance that experienced makers are achieving
 
Haha, no I didn't make steak knives Nathan. Two are a drop point hunter style and the third is a hunter style I guess, but not sure how you'd label it. I wanted them to be good hunting/skinning knives so thought that cutting meat at home with them would give me a clue as to how they function or perform.

I've hunted, but never came out with anything yet but I have a couple friends that I'll be making my next couple for who are religious year round hunters of whatever's in season and are always coming home with something. I'll be giving them knives to in order to give me feedback as to how mine stack up against the competition. They are both very seasoned and know what they like in their knives so I know I'll be getting excellent feedback from them! :) I realized early on that I wouldn't be able to do a fair comparing because I didn't have much to compare to. I think it'll be a good win-win because they get a free knife that hopefully will be awesome regardless if it becomes their primary in the field and I get great feedback to consider for future projects.

Is Blade going to be in Portland, OR? I know we have quite a few Gun and Knife shows and I've been thinking about going to one soon to meet some of the locals. Does anyone know if there's a way to look up who's local in their area here on the forum?

Thank you for the input!
 
I started making knives about a year and a half ago. I didn't have a lot to compare to, except a set of professional meat cutting knives. I got knives into the hands of people who could give me real world feedback. I got feedback from a few hunters, enthusiastic home cooks, and now have a set in the hands of a professional chef. I have sold a moderate number of knives over the past 6 + months once I figured out geometry and heat treat for the steel and intended use. The ones I sell I am very confident in. Prototypes go out at cost. I spent much of my time focusing on geometry and heat treat, at the expense of final finishing. Why polish a turd? I now focus a lot more on proper finishing with well thought out and functioning designs.
 
That's awesome Willie! I'm glad I have some great people to critique my work and let me know how I might improve it. Are there any resources you'd recommend for learning more about the geometry aspect of a knife? I've done a little browsing on the subject but so far very little. I'd like to have more intent behind my decisions soon instead of simply copying designs I'm drawn to so I can specifically tailor and customize my work.

Also, any resources for finishing options for carbon steels? Right now I'm going to leave the rough texture on the ricasso and blades I just made after removing them from an overnight soak in vinegar to remove the decarb because I like the satin/rough look with a nice handle. Like you said, a proper heat treat and geometry are number one priority but I'd like to start looking at my options.

I also thought about putting one of my next few out in that "pass around" (forgot the exact name) group here on the forum to get some input from anyone that participates on here.
 
You could clamp them in a vice and do chin-ups on them. Wear PPE. And do it at your own risk.
 
The geometry and heat treat is carefully thought out depending on many variables. I am just getting the parameters down on a handful of designs and steels. There are so many people who know way more than I do about this. The user, what the knife is meant to cut, how much "abuse" will it be exposed to, and the type of steel all play important roles. There is no general rule that fits the bill. I don't make tactical knives, so most of mine are thinner steel, and finer edges. Unless I am making a large knife, thin is in for me. I use a lot of 3/32" steel, and 0.15 or less behind the bevel on most knives. Rc is chosen to prevent chipping of the edge. It is just a measure that I can reference based on what my test knives showed was a good balance. The actual number is really unimportant.
 
I agree with the advise to use it for the intended purpose. However I will add that it is much better to first use a blade of known quality or use them side by side to get a benchmark. I made a handful of "kitchen" knives before having the opportunity to extensively use several custom and production Japanese gyutos. That experience changed just about everything about how I made knives. I see tons of knife pics on here that although the knife is well build and has good fit and finish, I know it wont cut well at all.
 
JMJones makes an interesting point. Getting a knife to cut well isn't rocket surgery. Unless you're going after the "hard use" (shameless marketing, lol) crowd, go for the thinnest edges you can get away with. On my chef knives, I originally went with .010" at the edge, before sharpening. Those cut great. Now, I take them down to .005" before sharpening. Most people outside the knife world have never experienced edges that sharp. Even when the edge is fading, they will still cut very well, due to the thinness of the edge. On my outdoors knives, I take them down to .020" for customer blades, and .015" for my personal knives. With responsible use, I haven't had any problems yet. Obviously, I am by no means the only one doing this. These aren't "ancient secrets" or anything, just simple matters of balancing edge thickness/steel type/hardness with intended use.

If you're planning on making mostly hunters, or other smaller knives (3"-5" blades), I would start as thin as I could get away with, and if you start having chipping or other issues, gradually start thickening the edge. I have never worked with 1080, but if it was me, I would do like Willie said, and start at .015", or I would probably go down to .010" at the edge, just to see what happens. If you're not going to be batonning and other "hard use" stuff, and just cutting/slicing/cleaning game, you will shock yourself and your friends with how ridiculously sharp your knives are. If you can't get away with edges that thin, just gradually make them thicker until you find a happy balance.

Sam
 
I use a lot of 15N20 for hunter/skinner knives now, as well as kitchen knives. The nickel in the steel allows it to remain tough, even at really thin edges. Rc60 for a skinner is not a problem with a 0.015 or a bit less edge, with a 20deg edge bevel. I had to go down to Rc58 to avoid chipping in 1095 at that geometry. 52100 gets the same geometry and hardness as my 15N20 blades, but they have better edge retention. The heat treat is more involved, and some people are willing to pay extra for that, and some aren't. O1 is pretty tough too.

I had a friend who is pretty into tactical knives, and he was making a 3/16" thick knife. He didn't want to listen to me about thin, so I had him take out his "tactical" folder, and try to cut through a beer can. He crumpled the can, even though he just had it sharpened. I handed him a 3/32" skinner I was just putting the edge on, and the can sliced in half effortlessly. He stopped working on the 3/16" knife and took a scrap piece of my 15N20, and redesigned his knife. I know its a ridiculous test, but it illustrated the point for him. :thumbup: For kitchen knives, an overripe tomato makes a good demonstration.

I picked up some pointers on food release from Michael Rader a little while back. One of my buddies reports his raw chicken prep time went from 20 minutes with a production chefs knife he spent $100.00 on, to 5 minutes with the chefs knife I made him. He has to use a good end grain cutting board, but is amazed at the efficiency of the thin offset edge, belly shape, and the adjustments to the convex grind for food release. I am continuing to test and refine, but these knives are a long way from a generic full flat grind now. Balance is taking a huge portion of my brain. I am finding over 10" blades difficult to balance well. We keep learning and refining as we go.
 
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I made and broke knives for the good part of a year before I felt confident in my heat treating. That was putting 5-6hrs a day, 5 days a week. I had buckets of broken blades and my mentor, Wally Hayes thought I was silly for taking it that far... but I didn't. This was my way of thinking...

It is not good enough just to know what your knives can do ... You need to know what they can't do.

I started out with the tasks one would expect a knife to perform and took it to what I felt was an extreme... and did the same thing for my sheaths. I admittedly don't test as often as I probably should, these days. Perhaps it's time to get nasty again.
 
Knifemakers and buyers like to fantasize somewhat...They like to fantisize about loosing all of their tools...except their knife and therefore this lone tool that avoided being lost must serve as a crow bar, hammer, hatchet a number of things a knife was never meant to be.

It is a good policy to not lose all your tools except your knife.

I test my blades for the task they were designed for....Cutting, Chopping, piercing etc.

I am sure someone will design a knife like a rock in case they have to throw it to knock something out of a tree...lo....Because of course they lost all the rocks. If I test a tool for prying it is because it is meant for prying.

The Japanese have it right...many knives design for many purposes.
 
It's only fantasy if you don't actually follow it up with your actions, Adam. I only take one(maybe two) tools into the woods. Like you said... the tool should suit the intended purpose. I have knives that can out-perform a hatchet at fire prep under some circumstances. My wilderness skills mentor is a 60year old half-blood First Nations who lived a bush life. He poked fun at me and my "big knife" for the first few seasons. Then he started borrowing it around camp. next thing you knew he was asking me to make one for him... and soon after, he stopped bringing out his hawk/hatchet.

I've come to learn that there are many ways to accomplish a given task and what makes sense to one, might not sit well with another. If a tool can perform to it's user's expectations, it's the right tool for the job.

People that limit a tool's potential just to remain true to its conventional label are.... well, limiting, IMO. lol.
 
^ this

Knives strictly as cutting tools is great (particularly if you're a butcher or whatever) but people who carry and use knives on a daily basis often use them for things that are not on the "acceptable use" list. We tend to poo-poo tactical knives and "extreme use" testing here as being hype and mall ninja childish BS. "Knives are for cutting!"

Well let me tell you something, there are only a few kinds of folks who actually buy and use non-kitchen fixed blade knives and most of them aren't cutting rope and string etc.

You have the guys who collect knives, you have the guys who use knives strictly as cutting tools (hunters and food prep) and you have folks in uniform who use knives in the line of duty. This last group, the tactical knife users, are serious as a heart attack. "Knives very seldom see combat" is simply not true. A particular knife in a conflict might never be unsheathed but still "see" plenty of combat and be an important part of someone's kit. Of course the knife is not generally used as a weapon, the guy carrying it is also carrying an M4. They're used to pry open glove boxes, open doors and even open holes in walls and they need to be able to do these things without breaking. I've come to realize that the need for reliable durable knives is very real, and that everyone from your roofing contractor to military personnel need and want knives they can wail on.

Heavy duty "tactical" knives serve a legitimate need. Think about all the "traditional" style knives and what actual real use they're ever going to see and think about which knife is a "fantasy" and which is actually used as intended.
 
Rick....

It is a knife....it is limited by its nature.

Only knowing what a tool is for can you work on making it the best for that task.

In Guatemala in the campo and jungle we carried matchetes and 5" skinners.... Neither one could replace the other and both were needed every single day.

There are those who play at living in the wilderness and their are those who actually do live in the wilderness. Anyone who lives that life knows you need a big blade and a small blade.

And yes we did limit the skinners potential and the matchetes as well to the tasks they were best designed for otherwise you just made the task at hand harder.

But at times we need a knife to pry and work like a crow bar or a chisel...that is a fact. So we design them as such. But many blades do not need to be used as such.
 
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