How do you test your knives?

kuraki,
I should have thought of that.

AVigil,
Thanks for that post.
That's what I did not know.
I thought that by using good material and custom HT that we could make "super knives"
Not actually, but I did think that a good custom should out perform the normal stuff.
Sort of takes the wind out of my sail, but I do enjoy designing them as well. It takes an artist to make a comfortable knife.
Maybe I'll focus more on the design and just stick with my HT that obviously holds up just fine.
What a disappointing post I made, I'm going to finish this beer and see if my knife will cut the glass.
 
Of course you can out perform store bought stuff, but that's simple. Higher hardness with ideal edge geometry and optimized alloy for the task.

It's a very low bar. Fit, finish, and design are what make a custom truly exceptional.

JMHO.
 
nmbarta said:
DanF
Sorry to make you shake your head again, I didn't know that this was a frowned upon thing to do in the custom knife world.

I'm not looking to use a knife as a tire iron or an ax, I'm just looking for a way to tell if what I'm doing during my HT process is working and I don't have access to fancy tools.
I already messed up the knife so, I figured I'd find out if it's any good. I thought maybe there was some universal test that people used to see if what they are doing works. I didn't know there wasn't, I also didn't know that testing knives is such a ridiculous thing to do.
Testing beyond expectations is pretty common in my field. If I'm building a roof system on a house that needs a snow load of 50 psf, I don't build the roof to fail at 51 psf. In fact, they probably wouldn't fail until three times that or more.
I'd like my knives to be really good knives. I can buy a knife for 20 bucks that will skin deer, chop onions, cut meat, fillet fish, and carve marshmallow sticks. What's the point of a custom knife if it's not expected to be better than a 20 dollar wallmart special?
I'm surprised to hear talk like this in a custom knife forum.
I can tell you exactly why the custom homes and furniture I build are better than 90% of the stuff that's out there. It's not just talk and looks, they are truly better, more efficient, safer, cleaner, quieter, healthier homes to live in than anything else you can buy.
There is no way I'd tell a potential customer that, they are paying a premium for an average house. I build the best homes money can buy and I can prove it. If I were to buy a custom hunting knife for say 400.00 bucks, I would like to think that the smith knows what he's doing and has fully tested his process before selling it to me. Without testing there is no knowing, that's exactly why millions of dollars worth of brand new cars are crashed every year. After all the theoretical computer testing, they crash them into a wall, roll them over, hit them in the side and all of that so they know how their product performs.
I'm new to all of this, I thought that bladeforums bladesmith Q&A would be a good place to ask a question like this. I obviously posted in the wrong forum.
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I agree with you. If you cant build something (like a knife) that is better than a $20 walmart special, then what id the point.
I do agree with some of the others on her about FiF (even though I aspire to be on the show), but when I make a knife I make it to do anything I need it to within reason.
Practically speaking, I feel a knife should be multi purpose,
In my opinion a 12-16 inch blade knife should be able to cut a 2 inch diameter sapling or equivalent dry wood easily without edge failure, and also be able to chop through the bone of an animal taken for food with ease, and skin said animal, and then chop the necessary wood (about 2 inch diameter) to cook said animal. I dont expect any knife to cut down a 12 inch diameter tree, mind you but it should perform as needed within reason. I think the chopping 2x4 in half is a good test if you are testing a knife for use in the woods, after all who wants to carry 20 tools when 1 should be adequate. The chop through rope is a good test for edge retention, but the plywood is going to a lot of trouble for nothing. In my opinion make a good knife throwing target and test for balance if you are good at throwing knives. otherwise this is what I suggest:

1) 2x4 chop if designed to chop,
2) rope slice for edge test,
3) leather slice for skinning test (if desired to skin game)

I would do them in that order as any warp or bend will appear in the chop test.
I have found file testing adequate for after quench test.

I like that you posed this question, as it is one that differs for smith to smith.
and I admire you for designing things to be better that what is commercially produced.

Good luck, and let me know what you think about my personal suggestions.
We all gotta stick together.
 
Lieblad said:
Its owning bragging rights... or fashion statement / art display of carrying it.
There is otherwise no ’good reason’ to own a custom knife, clothing, car, boat, furniture, etc.
The only thing justifies my 3-600$ pricetags is the 30-60$ of material and my labour.
My products are mostly used as costume accessory by folks who never use knives apart of whats banging around in their kitchen drawer.
Fwiw,
Google images ”samekniv” to see examples of my style product.
Click to expand...

Really?? I know that is indeed the case in many circumstances these days, but certainly not for every person and every custom knife out there. Plenty of people make and buy knives to enjoy better performance and better craftsmanship+build quality so they can enjoy the ease at which it cuts and remains in great condition for many years due to the craftsmanship and build quality, and of course enjoying the way it looks and even feels while using as it can be very functional art.

Also, for some, having something hand made for them which is of high quality can hold a lot of personal value and give them some pleasure knowing that they can eventually pass it down to their children and grandchildren being that it won't (hopefully) fall apart or break after using it over the years due to the overall build quality, and thus it gains sentimental value. Just another perspective. :thumbsup:

AVigil said:
A $20 walmart special can perform just as well as a custom knife if they got the steel, heat treatment and geometry correct.
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But the thing is, have you ever found/bought a cheaply made mass-produced knife from a big box store for that low of a price that had any of those things at an optimal level, let alone all three of them together?? :eek: lol ;)

~Paul
My Youtube Channel
... (It's been a few years since my last upload)
 
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nmbarta said:
Thanks.
I don't have this down yet, but do enjoy building knives.
I was hoping for some constructive criticism on my HT/test process.
I get that my testing is not very scientific, but I didn't do much to it that it might not have to do in the field.
I take my boat way up the river where nobody goes, I hike into the mountains where very few people go. Everything I have is potentially a survival tool, especially a knife. I've broke/bent/ruined plenty of cheap knives using them for things they weren't intended for. (mostly screw drivers and pry bars)
I like this design, I called it a "camp" knife because that is what it looks like I guess.
I'm going to build one for the truck, and one for the boat, who knows what they'll get used for.
I'd like to build a slightly smaller one for my pack and hopefully get good enough at this to give a few away as gifts.
What is "FiF" by the way?
Maybe I went about this wrong.
If you had a propane forge and a household electric oven, how would you HT 1084 for a camp/survival knife?
How would you "check" yourself to make sure you have a good blade?
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FiF is the TV show "Forged in Fire" Its on the history channel at 6pm every Tuesday. If you want to impossible stuff made into knives, and torture tested on things they were never meant to cut, thats the show you watch. They do things to knives that frankly disgust me, but it is interesting to see the techniques that the smiths use, I have learned a lot from watching the smiths work, I don't care for the tests they put the knives through, as I am only interested in the technique of forging used by the smiths, but for them to weed out the good smiths from the not-so-good smiths in just 6 hours they have to be brutal on the knives to equivocate about a weeks worth of HARD use. I think its a cool show, all in all even if it is a little impractical.
 
ancientsteels,
That makes sense to me.
I just don't know how much of each you expect without touching up the blade.
I did file test after quench and it would not cut at all, maybe just a touch of what I believe to be decarb, but it is very little, barely scratches, then it won't cut at all.
The throwing at plywood was more of a random test for me. I'm not good at throwing knives, so I figured it would hit the plywood randomly and bounce around. I was just trying to hurt it at this point and the plywood was there. I threw it hard, thought it might break or bend the tip. Then it bounced around in the rocks and gravel which did put a couple dings in the edge, but it didn't chip or break. Tough is more important than edge retention to me in a knife like this, and I feel like I have a good balance here, bit it's also my first try, so I know there has to be room for improvement. No way do you get it perfect on the first go.
That's why I asked the question in the first place. Like I said, I'm pretty happy with it, but I want it better if it's possible.
I guess the easy way to put it is, I want to make the absolute best blade possible out of 1084 for now. I'll buy more tools to be able to use other steels later.
FiF....I didn't know what that meant. I'll have to check that out.
 
Sounds like your on the right track. Try a san-mai. Softer spine, harder edge. I can give you some tips if you want, although I am new to this as well.
Like i said FiF is a good show to watch other smiths and see how they make knives stand up to brutality. I have seen some really good smiths on there that make incredible stuff thats near indestructible.

About 20 HARD chops on the 2x4 seems adequate to me.

Good luck!
Wishing you the best!
 
coldsteelburns,

That's pretty much how I feel.
I love the art, love the look, love the feel, but they have to actually be better to make any sense to me.
 
ancientsteels,
Tips were the whole point of the original post, I'll take any I can get.
As of today, I need both hands to count how many knives I've made. I'll assume you have a few blades on me!!
I haven't done enough to have anything to base an opinion on, but I'll keep my opinion that good custom knives are better knives.
I assumed that "good" and "custom" went hand in hand, live and learn.
 
nmbarta said:
ancientsteels,
Tips were the whole point of the original post, I'll take any I can get.
As of today, I need both hands to count how many knives I've made. I'll assume you have a few blades on me!!
I haven't done enough to have anything to base an opinion on, but I'll keep my opinion that good custom knives are better knives.
I assumed that "good" and "custom" went hand in hand, live and learn.
Click to expand...

I sometimes get the feeling that bladesmiths are attributed with some kind of mystical abilities to make a blade great.

As has been stated already, a store bought knife can cut as well as a custom if the manufacturer invests the time to dial in the geometry an heat treat of his product. However I think in many cases it is fair to say that they do not do that to reduce the costs of manufacturing. Also most store bought kitchen knives for example have lower hardness than customs simply because it is harder to chip or break a kitchen knife with a rc in the mid 50s than it is a custom with rc of 60-61 with a thin edge, when you do something with the knife for which it was not intended.

This just comparing the cutting ability. Then you can start comparing the design itself. How is the handle position in relation to the tip in regards to the intended use of the knife? How is the balance of the knife dialed in in regards to its intended use? Reputable custom makers mostly take great care in doing this.
Then there is fit and finish. Compare a good custom knife to a store bought knife in regards to how symmetrical are the grind lines are for example. Are the plunges even? Blade finish etc. Those are in part cosmetic things but speak lots about the craftsmanship involved.

So comparing a store bought knife with a good custom just in regards to cutting ability (which still wont be the same in most cases) is a bit nonsensical.

Edit: Also yes, customs are bought partly because they are exclusive, are seen as status symboles by some and provide sentimental value that a store bought knife porbably will not provide. Would be dishonest to say that those things do not play a big part, but taking the things into account I have listed above...yes, a good custom is better than a store bought knife in almost every regard except the price.

Regarding the testing: I can only agree with the advice that has been given. Use the knife for what it was intended. When testing chopping ability and edge stability: chopping antler can be really tough on an edge.
 
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coldsteelburns said:
But the thing is, have you ever found/bought a cheaply made mass-produced knife from a big box store for that low of a price that had any of those things at an optimal level, let alone all three of them together?? :eek: lol ;)
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Sure have, years ago there was a youtube channel called "Knife Testers" and he test high end and low end knives from Busse to Cheaper then dirt knives.

One of the Cheaper then dirt Bowies did as well as some of the best in all testing, which was severe until failure. I bought one and it is a good knife the price was like under $20.

Next are the Rough Rider Slip joints, I own several and they all are less then $20

Currently now knives are coming out of China with good steels and heat treat for $50 and up from companies like TwoSun.

Companies like Kizer and Reate have really upped their game and turning out folders that rival customs at many times the cost.

The reality is many Top "Custom knifemakers" are having their knives made by mass production in China and elsewhere. They assemble them, put their names on them and charge custom knife prices for them.
 
AVigil said:
The reality is many Top "Custom knifemakers" are having their knives made by mass production in China and elsewhere. They assemble them, put their names on them and charge custom knife prices for them.
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Sadly, that is true.
 
People like to shave hairs with a knife to prove it is sharp.
But that doesn't mean that it cuts well.
A hair is very thin, so it is easely cut.
You can take a 1/4" thick piece of hardened steel and sharpen it 2x20degrees.
If done well it will shave hairs from your arm, but won't cut much.

Many tests prove how tough a knife is. They may be but it is likely that the edge is so thick that the knife doesn't cut well
 
I was putting a new roof on my shed the other day and I could not find my razor utility knife for the life of me! I grabbed a 4 inch aebl drop point i made a few years ago and freshed the edge on a 320 grit stone and proceeded to cut through shingles, tar paper, ice dam gaurd, I even pried up a nail with the spine of the blade, to my amazement it did not chip along the edge nor did it break when I flexed the spine pretty good...i was impressed. That is alot more than i would ever ask of a blade ground that thin, pretty good real world test.
 
nmbarta said:
I'm new to all of this, I thought that bladeforums bladesmith Q&A would be a good place to ask a question like this. I obviously posted in the wrong forum.
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You got the right place... just different schools of thought.

I tested my knives to destruction(sheaths too!). 62lbs of scrap, to be exact... I weighed the buckets years after. My mentor told me it was silly. I am an admitted serial knife abuser and I make knives for ME, so not only do I need to know what they can do, I need to know what they can't do.

I make tools, not just knives in the traditional sense. If a client wants a blade they can dig in the dirt with and bust open tree stumps for mealworms, it better damn well do it. That is still a knife but it's no longer just a knife.

I understand folks can be quick to judge and expect other to agree with their well thought out philosophies but we are all different and that's what makes it such a cool craft.
 
I think there is a pretty important distinction between a durability test as a part of your process and a durability demonstration.

Edge stability and edge retention tests are very important but don't make good video. A durability demonstration helps illustrate to your customers that your work is not likely to fail at a bad moment. Both are important, but they're not the same thing.
 
AVigil said:
Sure have, years ago there was a youtube channel called "Knife Testers" and he test high end and low end knives from Busse to Cheaper then dirt knives.

One of the Cheaper then dirt Bowies did as well as some of the best in all testing, which was severe until failure. I bought one and it is a good knife the price was like under $20.

Next are the Rough Rider Slip joints, I own several and they all are less then $20

Currently now knives are coming out of China with good steels and heat treat for $50 and up from companies like TwoSun.

Companies like Kizer and Reate have really upped their game and turning out folders that rival customs at many times the cost.

The reality is many Top "Custom knifemakers" are having their knives made by mass production in China and elsewhere. They assemble them, put their names on them and charge custom knife prices for them.
Click to expand...


Sorry, I should have stated that I was only thinking about fixed blades when I said that, as I'm aware that folders are a whole different field with regard what's out there and available, as well as how they're used. Kizer is definitely top notch with their machining and is hard to get any better than that with build quality and materials, at least in a practical sense.

Also, I'd be interested in seeing that video, sounds interesting. Would you happen to remember the title by any chance or around what year that particular video was put out to make it easier to find? I just gotta ask though, did the bowie also have good build quality/F&F along with its quality heat treat & geometry? It seems that it would be a pretty rare case to get something of that quality for that $20 with regard to fixed blades, at least at a place like walmart lol, not saying impossible though. ;)


I guess I just thought some of the examples given that were comparing quality hand-made knives with cheap box store knives seemed a bit extreme to me, and even unlikely. But perhaps I'm wrong. :)

~Paul
My Youtube Channel
... (It's been a few years since my last upload)
 
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