How does infi compare to S30V??

[blademan 13]

Originally posted by harrydog


It just strikes me as odd that a steel as good as INFI was developed and only Jerry has access to it. It usually takes lots of time and money to develop a significantly different/better steel, and I can't imagine any steel company being satisfied with the quantities that they sell to Jerry. How do they recoup their costs?

Very good point. I have often wondered how INFI came to be. I would imagine that Crucible spent a considerable amount of money before they were satisfied with their S-30V.

 

[OwenM]

Originally posted by Andrew Lynch
I'm basing my information on several of those extremely long S30V threads, where S30V was described (often) as being a direct improvement over ATS-34 in all areas (just about), but whose performance was not in a whole new league. For example, IIRC some knowledgeable people said that it would not be as tough as A2, which is itself not one of the toughest steels. I don't know if much actual testing has been done yet, and I'm basing my info on what I've read.

I'd give that a second thought before touting those comparisons with INFI as fact. One thing that I've noticed about this steel is that there have been tons of opinions. Most of those opinions based on very little if any fact or experience. There were opinions ad nauseum before the steel was even out yet. Alot of the comments from the initial testing were just impressions (I think Rob Simonich first posted about it, which really got me interested in S30V), and the heat treat hadn't been perfected. He and Jerry Hossom have made some comments more recently, but I haven't seen anyone doing any side by side testing, and giving any numbers.
One of the reasons I wanted to try S30V was that I was tired of reading what people who had never even seen an S30V knife, much less used one, thought about the steel, and wanted to see for myself.

Although I'm sure you don't want to destroy or damage your fine knives (not that you should), I would like to see some more destructive testing. I think the differences would stand out more there. While chopping and clearing brush and small sapplings, I find that I hit or nick a hidden rock or glance onto a visible one fairly often (once every few outings). This is VERY hard on an edge, and this is where many of the toughest steels really shine through.

Have no fear...my knives won't be undergoing that kind of testing! 'Sides they're not big enough to use a choppers or crowbars (you saw the skinny little things).
I'm right there with you on the accidental damage. Yard work/clearing brush is sooo hard on an edge. I've done edge damage to every knife that I've used for that. That's why I love mod-INFI. Harder to damage, and easier to repair than the 1095, and 0170-6C blades I use.
I never have any problems "in the field", even though I intentionally push knives to see how they do when I'm out in the woods. Clean wood never seems to win over hardened steel.
I like destructive testing, though. Gives me an idea what I can expect. I don't know why it raises such a stir when Cliff breaks something, or chops into a concrete block. Simulates accidents that can happen in real use. I'd do it to all my knives, just to see....except then I'd have no knives

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Folks,

Stain-resistance-wise, I keep hearing Infi is very good. What's your experience with it? Is Infi as stain resistant as A-2? As D-2? As ATS-34? And are you impressions based on controlled tests, or just a loose comparison with your other knives? Note that with that last question, I'm not trying to discourage anyone from posting -- if your opinion is based just on a loose comparison, I still would like to hear it, I just want to be able to separate impressions based on more-controlled tests vs. those based on looser impressions.

thanks!

Joe

 

[Evolute]

Joe asked:

"...are you impressions based on controlled tests, or just a loose comparison with your other knives? Note that with that last question, I'm not trying to discourage anyone from posting -- if your opinion is based just on a loose comparison, I still would like to hear it, I just want to be able to separate impressions based on more-controlled tests vs. those based on looser impressions."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's a copy of a Cliff Stamp post about his tests on INFI's corrosion resistance:

"I examined the corrosion resistance of M-INFI several times and each time was impressed with the results. The first time I just left the blade covered in a 1/2 litre of water for 3 and a half hours. This however failed to induce visible rusting or make any impact on the slicing ability. Making the environment a little harsher I put it back into the water and poured a tsp of salt across the
blade. Five and a half hours later the blade was examined and a three very small rust spots were found, being about 1 to 2 mm across. The edge did not feel significantly different. Ten hours later the blade was examined and no additional rusting was evident. The slicing ability still had not significantly degraded. All rust was then removed easily with a Scotchbrite pad and the edge restored to the x-coarse finish.

Making the environment a little harsher and including the TOPS Steel Eagle for reference
(1095), I put both blades in a steel pan. Each knife was covered with water (3/4 litre) and 2 tsp of salt was poured along each blades. After five hours the TOPS blade was covered in rust along any non-coated area (as expected) and the slicing ability of the blade was cut almost in half. The edge on the Basic was not effected and the blade showed little effect from the soaking except for
a few light rust spots along one side of the bevel (the side facing the metal pan). The rust on the Basic was removed when the blade was dried, the only resulting effect was a few water spots visible along the bevel. The TOPS blade still had rust remaining after drying (much was removed though) as some parts of the blade are engraved and ground out (blood groove and such) and escape contact while drying. Interesting enough, the TOPS blade formed a lot of black rust as well, this was not present at all on the Basic. After drying the blades were again exposed to a corrosive environment.

This time determined to effect the Basic I poured a mixture of salt and water (2 tbsp per 8 oz) over each blade, put both in the metal pan and then added an additional 8 oz of the salt water. This left the blade exposed to the air as well as the water and I hoped the movement of the air would induce
rusting faster. After 4 hours I checked on both blades and this seemed to be evident. The TOPS blade was again completely covered, with corrosion, mainly black rust though as I never removed much of it from the last soaking. The Basic had some spots along the spine and the bevel. When the cutting ability was checked a significant difference was noted in both blades.

Based on that it would seem to me that you would need a fairly corrosive enviroment in order to worry about functional degredation due to rust. I have not seen any in actual use. When it thaws here I will lend both Busses to my brother as he frequently goes saltwater swimming."

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=135237&highlight=Stain

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are Jerry Busse's Own Words about INFI's corrosion resistance:

"Stainless? Not supposed to be. However, INFI has demonstrated very high levels of stain resistance in many different climates. Uncoated blades have been tested for more than a year in Alaska and have made their way into the wilds of British Columbia, the High Sierras and the tropical rain forest. No rust in Alaska or British Columbia! No rust in the High Sierras, even when exposed to great quantities of blood and left in the wet grass overnight. The tropical rain forest, which has been known to rust plastic (just kidding), did offer the toughest of the environmental exposures and a light speckling of oxidation did occur but was easily removed in the field with a hand rubbing of sand and water. No pitting was reported. Now I'm sure that salt-water exposure would offer some different results. The point is that although INFI is not a stainless it is certainly not a rust aggressive steel as many of the high carbon steels have proven to be. Couple this with our coating and you've got yourself a fairly
maintenance free knife."

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=187207&highlight=Stain

----------------------------------------------------------------------

And here is a post from Climber that--while not based on testing--may shed some light on INFI's corrosion resistance:

""Some Technical Details...
Although INFI is not considered "stainless" by the arbitrary standard by which metals are judged, which is "higher than 15% Chromium" or "higher than 14.5% Chromium" or "higher than 12% Chromium" or whoever you're asking... Yet it DOES what "stainless" is SUPPOSED to do: Retard Corrosion. What really makes something "stainless" or stains less than standard carbon steels??? A good amount of FREE Chromium is ONE method, the most common. Free Chromium inhibits bonding by "outside influences" beyond the metal matrix itself. But to GET to that stage where the Chromium is "freed up" ah, there's the rub. Carbon "locks up" 17 times its weight in Chromium, under normal circumstances, & no other factors involved; which there sometimes are... (Hey, you want a SIMPLE answer? Then ask a simpler question! Ha, Ha! )
So if a steel has 1 full % of Carbon, it would 'normally' require 17% of Chromium to bond with the Carbon, producing Chromium Carbides -- good hardness qualities, good wear resistance, good toughness as benefits --BEFORE any FREE Chromium can do any real benefit in the 'stainless' or Corrosion Resistance department. 440C is around 1% Carbon, & usually 18% Chromium; hence it is a good corrosion-fighter: It has at least as much "remaining" Chromium after Carbon-bonding as there was Carbon to begin with...
An effective ratio for Corrosion Resistance.
Some others, like D2 are less in Chromium (14.5%) & more in Carbon ~1.4%, so it has far less corrosion resistance: i have a D2 sword rusting away right next to me here, just from the humid Nebraska air... (it's an handmade experiment, OK? )
So 'steels'(NOT!) like Stellite, Talonite, & BDC, have a Cobalt Matrix, TONS (Well: 28%-32%) of Chromium! Corrosion-Proof? Time will tell, but it probably will not tell in our lifetimes! Now, if you complicate matters, & i hinted that we would, add a little Vanadium to "THE MIX" and the Carbon is all over that! It bonds well to Vanadium, and it bonds well to other elements. So that decreases the amount of Carbon that is bonding to the Chromium, thus freeing up them little Chromium guys to "patrol the borders" if ya know what i mean! (Cor~ Res~) So also an amount of Molybdenum "frees up" Chromium, keeping them little greedy Carbons from sucking up all that Chromium!
So, Now, lets look at INFI: REALLY look at it...
This stuff is DESIGNED TO BE AMAZING, and it is amazing: here's just part of why:
INFI has less than 1% of Carbon, about half a percent actually; & 9% Chromium. Do the Math: 0.5% Carbon bonding with 17 times its weight of Chromium = 8.5% Chromium used as Chromium Carbides, leaving a remainder of 0.5% Chromium; which is as much as the Carbon was to begin with: so, same RATIO as 440C, a known, proven "Rust-Fighter." Also, wouldn't you know it, there's Vanadium AND Molybdenum AND Nickel AND Cobalt in that thar piece of INFI Steel ! So, there's actually a LOT more free Chromium runnin' 'round the Matrix than our math-formula suggests, as Carbon atoms bond with those other elements.... "

http://www.bussecombat.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000399

 

[Evolute]

harrydog said:

"It just strikes me as odd that a steel as good as INFI was developed and only Jerry has access to it. It usually takes lots of time and money to develop a significantly different/better steel, and I can't imagine any steel company being satisfied with the quantities that they sell to Jerry. How do they recoup their costs?"

And blademan 13 said:

"Very good point. I have often wondered how INFI came to be. I would imagine that Crucible spent a considerable amount of money before they were satisfied with their S-30V."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the answer to this riddle is that Jerry Busse designed INFI himself. Here are a couple of quotes among many I've seen which have lead me to this conclusion:

Ron Hood:

"Busse Combat Knives has just introduced a new steel called INFI. Historically, developing new steel has been extremely expensive due in part to the large quantities that had to be run. There are, however new processes in steel manufacturing which allow for small quantifies to be made. Couple this with state-of-the-art computer programs that can test an analysis before actual production begins and the costs become much more manageable.

With these new systems in place Busse Combat set out to develop a steel specifically for combat and survival knife applications that features enormous wear resistance, toughness levels never before dreamed of, ease of maintenance and easy field re-sharpening.

After signing a confidential disclosure form with Busse Combat I was allowed to examine the analysis of INFI. These guys are really keeping a tight lid on this steel until they have patent protection. It seems to defy many rules of knife making metallurgy. It also introduces a new steel manufacturing process to the cutlery industry that is sure to have long lasting ramifications.

I searched through every book that I have on modern steels and I was unable to find anything similar. I questioned a number of metallurgists about one of the key elements and they were unaware of its use in any tool steel. I was able to examine the patent applications filed by Busse Combat and the initial searches done by their attorneys look very promising."

http://web.archive.org/web/19980613235149/www.survival.com/mistress.htm

And Jerry Busse, himself:

"Are we excited about INFI? Oh yeah! In fact it is difficult to contain ourselves. We have invested a lot of time and money in this project. We were prepared to invest more until we got it right. Luckily, more than ten years and countless bucks later we hit the jackpot!"

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=187207&highlight=Stain

 

[Andrew Lynch]

Originally posted by OwenM
I'd give that a second thought before touting those comparisons with INFI as fact. One thing that I've noticed about this steel is that there have been tons of opinions. Most of those opinions based on very little if any fact or experience. There were opinions ad nauseum before the steel was even out yet. Alot of the comments from the initial testing were just impressions (I think Rob Simonich first posted about it, which really got me interested in S30V), and the heat treat hadn't been perfected. He and Jerry Hossom have made some comments more recently, but I haven't seen anyone doing any side by side testing, and giving any numbers.
One of the reasons I wanted to try S30V was that I was tired of reading what people who had never even seen an S30V knife, much less used one, thought about the steel, and wanted to see for myself.

I did not mean to tout the comparisons as fact. I'm sorry if it sounded that way. At the time, as you said, the heat treat hadn't totally been ironed out, and little testing had been done (not that much has been done by now). I have not personally tested S30V at all, and the information I posted was the impression I got from what I've read, not necessarily fact. I am looking forward to hearing more testing results of S30V, especially as compared to other steels.

That's why I love mod-INFI. Harder to damage, and easier to repair than the 1095, and 0170-6C blades I use.

I agree. When I first hit a rock while chopping with an INFI blade, I felt sick in the pit of my stomach. I was afraid to look at the edge, for I had damaged many previous knives badly this way. When I finally did look, there was just a roll in the edge, and not a very bad one at that. I realigned it in a few minutes with a fine sharpmaker ceramic rod. Now when I hit a rock, I have no fear

 

[Andrew Lynch]

Here's some more of Cliff Stamp's corrosion testing for INFI:

"Corrosion resistance
To first get a feel for the corrosion resistance of the BM I simply did not use any corrosion inhibitor on the blade. This however failed to produce any significant results but it is fall now and thus not overly humid. To simulate a fairly harsh environment I then poured water on the blade, sheathed it and left it overnight. The next day I checked the blade, the edge was still sharp, I could feel no noticeable difference, however rust spots were evident along the flats and a couple on the spine. There was no significant penetration as it all cleaned off with a Scotchbrite pad and some Ajax.

As another check I compared its corrosion resistance against 5160. After doing some chopping with the BM and a HI AK khukuri (5160) at about -5, I left both blades alone when I came inside and let condensation form on them. About 7 hours later I checked on them and the 5160 blade was heavily spotted. It had rusted significantly. There were little 1mm spots covering the edge and extending along the full width of the blade in the chopping area. About 75% of the blade had these little spots on them. The BM was unaffected except for some very minor rusting just under the index finger cutout where the cord I have wrapped around the handle is tied off. The rust on the BM wiped off with a towel. On the khukuri I removed it in less than a minute with soapy water and a Scotchbrite pad.

I also took the Busse Battle Mistress and coated parts of it with Rust Check, Marine Tuf-Cloth, WD-40,oil and left one part bare (different arrangements on both sides). I left the coatings dry overnight and the next morning did the 250 cuts on weeds and covered the blade with a salt water solution (1 tsp of table salt per 2 cups of water). When the blade was checked 6 hours later there was significant rusting. The tip which saw the most use had large 2-3mm orange spots which gradually became 1 mm specs as they progressed up the blade. The blade had the same rust pattern on both sides which means it ignored the protective coatings all together."

I also remember Cliff commenting that when INFI rusts it does so in a relatively non-damaging way. I remember a test where INFI was compared to VG-10 in corrosion resistance. IIRC, INFI rusted more easily, but the damage the rust did was less. The VG-10 blade's edge was degraded more than the INFI blade's edge, for example (that's only IIRC).

 

[Lukers]

Andrew
How is it that you define tough? How do you know which steels are tougher in what order from the list you gave? Did the knives you tested have identical primary and secondary and were they made from the same thickness of stock?
Also, I wasn't aware that S7 and A8 were commonly used in the knife industry for knives. Where can I get one? You refered to 5160 as being much tougher than A-2. This may be so if you using a 5160 kukri as your comparison. Being in the low 50 RC, no wondering that it is "tougher". However, from my experience, kukri's get a lot of edge flattening and dings.

 

[Andrew Lynch]

Originally posted by Lukers
How is it that you define tough?

Obviously, toughness is relative, but I think of tough in two ways:

1.) Edge toughness/integrity. Basically, the steel resists chipping and other edge damage strongly.

2.) Blade toughness. Basically, it will take a good amount of flex to break it, and it will not crack or break if you hit a rock or something.

Originally posted by Lukers
How do you know which steels are tougher in what order from the list you gave?

I put them in no particular order.

Originally posted by Lukers
Also, I wasn't aware that S7 and A8 were commonly used in the knife industry for knives. Where can I get one?

They are rarely used. I think S7 is used in swords sometimes, but I'm not sure. Tom Johanning uses A8 in his TAC-10 and TAC-11 models (check out www.survivalknives.com ).

Andrew, you refered to 5160 as being much tougher than A-2. This may be so if you using a 5160 kukri as your comparison. Being in the low 50 RC, no wondering that it is "tougher". However, from my experience, kukri's get a lot of edge flattening and dings.

Actually, I think higher quality khukuris have quite a hard edge, around 58-60 IIRC (although the edge is not all the same hardness). Although I have done some testing, and do quite a bit of large knife work, most of what I say about the comparisons of steels, toughness, etc., is based upon what I've read. Various threads here on BF, the testing of Cliff Stamp and others, etc., have all shaped my views of steels. No, I have not done all the testing myself.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

In regards to rusting and pitting, the pseudo-stainless steels like ATS-34, VG-10 etc., are actually among the worst. Yes, they resist surface rusting better than the carbon steels, however with both exposed to extreme enviroments, they fare much worse. I have done long term salt water soaks on CPM-3V (Ed Schott), and the induced pitting is minimal compared to what was seen with the pseudo-stainless steels. The main problem with the carbon steels and corrosion is when cutting acidic foods, you can actually see a patina form in minutes. Similar corrosion problems are present when working around salt water, you can't leave the edge exposed for very long before it will degrade.

As for the coat hanger chopping, I have done a lot of that, and it is very informative on a few characteristics. It is critical to note however that blades can do very well on it, but fail badly on heavy work such as chopping. The coat hanger cutting mainly tests impaction resistance (hardness). An Ontario machete for example does very on it, as would the Patrol Machete from Camillus, but they both grossly break apart violently on hardwoods. The Ontarios also mangled concrete weights and was pounded through large metal rods without harm. I still think such concentrated impact testing is valuable, as it indicates what happens with inclusion contacts, but there are other aspects of toughness which are critical as well, such as general shock resistance.

A point should be made here as well that such general shock resistance in reference to chopping is usually a long term effect, meaning that that you are looking at impacts at least in the thousands, and I would personally not feel comfortable until 10k was passed (about a week). Even ATS-34 makes a workable blade just to chop through a piece of wood or two, but cycle it through a few thousand impacts on hardwoods (when it is of similar cross section to a spring steel blade), and see what happens. You can get gross failure due to crack propogation. This is one of the real problems with many judgements of this aspect of blade toughness, they are made on work samples that are really short. You can get an idea of many blade characteristics with a very low volume of work, but some durablity aspects require a much larger volume. The other big problem is people using toughness for all sorts of characteristics including hardness and even machinability.

Owen :

I don't know why it raises such a stir when Cliff breaks something, or chops into a concrete block.

Because it is not frequently reported, and experience with it is in general low with high end knives for obvious reasons, so it stands out. It doesn't make any waves with someone who has done a lot of R&D like Busse, or an experienced user like Greenjacket as they have seen their share of broken blades, accidental and otherwise. As well you have to separate those who view reviews as promotional devices as opposed to those who look at them as evaluations. The latter is obviously expected to include references to work which the blade won't do well, as knowing a weakness is just as critical as knowing a strength.

Luke, in regards to toughness, the steels Andrew listed have a higher impact toughness than A2 which basically means if you take a hammer to them, they will take more effort to shatter. In regards to khukuris, the hardness is usually ~58 RC at the edge, though the spine in indeed much softer. The plain carbon, and low alloy steels such as 1084 and L6 are very commonly used by makers and are much tougher than A2 in this regard (and most others).

As for S30V, for all the hype about the great toughness of this stainless steel, the RC has actually dropped in may cases over the steels it is replacing. While makers like Reeve like to make light of the fact that the hardness has dropped, a lower RC relates to a direct loss in several performance aspects, specifically impaction resistance, and edge rolling. Thus you lose elements of durability as well as edge retention. You can also find a lot of double speak here, as the same makers have promoted higher RC's in the past, and degraded lower ones in order to promote what they were selling.

If we are speaking of small light use knives, S90V is directly better, higher hardness and wear resisance. You can of course argue cost vs performance. For large use knives what does S30V offer over the steels currently used like INFI or even 5160? Greater impact toughness (no it is less), greater ductility (no it is less), greater hardness (no they are the same). The greater wear resistance (vs steels like 5160) is not going to be of practical value for the most part for heavy use blades, and a greater resistance to lighter corrosion again not something that I would place much value on, but different people have different weights for the various performance characteristics.

Yes S30V will be pretty much a direct upgrade over ATS-34, but it is hardly the case that this puts it in the same league as the spring steels and such for hard use blades. For those impressed by ATS-34 (of which there are many) yes it is an exciting development. I was one of those who commented on it with no experience, I was just going on what I have read and using the promoted performance from CPM as an obvious upper bound, which was not anything to get excited about compared to the nonstainless steels. As well, many discussions with Phil Wilson on S30V, who I have found to be frank and free of hype, who speaks openly about the weak points of the steels he uses. He is very positive on it by the way, mainly as a replacement for ATS-34 for hunters and the like as a cost friendly version of S90V .

-Cliff

 

[lightweight]

This has been good reading. Thanks.

Cliff, from your post S30V still seems like a good steel, as you said, an upgrade from ATS-34, but do you think that it was over hyped? From what I heard about it I thought it was being sold as the next "super-steel". Crucible's new wonder child.

 

[OwenM]

Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
As for the coat hanger chopping, I have done a lot of that, and it is very informative on a few characteristics. It is critical to note however that blades can do very well on it, but fail badly on heavy work such as chopping

Yeah, real chopping is something I have no way of trying with this steel, since my blades are 1/8" stock, and have 4", and 4.5" blades, respectively. I don't have any plans to order a chopper in S30V (though maybe 3V), though, so it isn't something that matters much to me.

As for S30V, for all the hype about the great toughness of this stainless steel, the RC has actually dropped in may cases over the steels it is replacing.

IMO, alot of the "hype" came from people referring to S30V as stainless 3V. I don't know if Crucible ever called it that, but their own charts show S30V waayyy below 3V in toughness.
http://www.crucibleservice.com/cutlery.cfm#
Clicking on CPM-S30V next to the chart will take you to a pdf page that includes a bar graph comparing S30V to other CPM steels.
Its toughness is ranked a little higher than that of D2...
I see no reason for anyone to expect it to be any higher than what the manufacturer claims it is.
The recommended hardness is 58-61. Both of my knives are within the recommended range, and from what I've seen so far, their toughness, corrosion resistance, and wear resistance are in line with the information given by the manufacturer, if not understated.
It does what it's supposed to do. Maybe even a little more.
I don't see what all the fuss is about.

 

[Ad]

I think I read somewhere that S30V is something like a 5% gain over ATS34 in certain aspects. As a casual user/collector, I doubt that I would ever even realize the gain this offers. Hell, Strider still makes blades out of ATS34, and I haven't heard anyone complaining about them. It seems like we are all out looking for the holy grail; we all want Excaliber hanging on our hip; and it just isn't there.

 

[lightweight]

That would probably be what happened to me than. Being pretty new to all these steels I probably misunderstood S30V for 3V in some cases and got a totally different picture in my mind:footinmou

Thanks for clearing that up for me OwenM

 

[OwenM]

Hey, I thought the same thing. Seeing it referred to as "stainless 3V" made me picture a steel that was, well, like INFI, except that you could have a custom made in the design of your choice, and for a reasonable price.
Who wouldn't like to have INFI's combined attributes in a blade of their choice?
Maybe someday, but I guess it won't be today...

 

[Will York]

For Joe,

On corrosion resistance comparisons of other steels with INFI, I've used four steels quite a bit in brush clearing here in coastal South Texas, a humid and corrosive environment, with minimal cleaning or care over periods of several days. These include coated (parkerized) Ontario machete's of 1095; HI khukuri's of 5160, a teflon coated short-blade (9") machete of ATS34; and a coated M-INFI Busse Basic 9 (also Steel Heart and Battle Mistress of INFI, but not without wiping them down and general clean-up after use).

Of the four, the 1095 and 5160 have rusted heavily in my use, to the extent that they could not be efficiently cleaned of rust again and were left with large areas of rust patina over parts of the blades even after clean-up. The ATS34 edge bevels rusted readily when left wet with brush sap overnight, and to a lesser degree when left in a leather sheath, clean but without oil, for a period of 4-5 days. The ATS34 surface rust will clean off, however, with multiple applications of Breakfree CLP and scrubbing.

To compare, I've worked a good half day with a Basic 9 and then wiped the edge on my glove and laid it under the seat of my pickup and forgot about it for a day. The work was done in an area only 3 miles from the shore of the Gulf of Mexico--an area of humid, salty air and a very corrosive environment. The result was a few pin-head size rust spots along two inches of the flat side of the edge bevel and no rust at all on the convex side of the bevel. The rusting was so light I actually left the knife for another day before addressing it, and all evidence of rust wiped off on my CrO loaded leather strop without further attention, leaving a bright razor edge once again.

My un-scientific but high-confidence opinion--I'd put INFI well above ATS34 and far and away above any carbon blade steels in the maintenance-free category when it comes to rust-resistance.

-Will

 

[Andrew Lynch]

Those are some interesting observations, Will, thanks.

I used to oil my INFI, but don't any more. Where I am (humidity-wise), it just doesn't need it. I just clean it off, dry it off, and stick it in the drawer. I've got a Becker PM here (0170-6C) that, even though it was oiled, still had oxidation along its edge after a few days (blackening, not rust). I have no problem with that (and perhaps the oil was not too suitable), and I love carbon steels; I'm just adding it in for comparison, to give you an idea of how things rust where I am (how corrosive the environment is).

 

[Cliff Stamp]

OwenM :

IMO, alot of the "hype" came from people referring to S30V as stainless 3V.

Essentially yes, the early promotion from some people was very high and in excess of the actual abilites, much like Talonite. And just like Talonite, there are significant drawbacks which were either ignored or prone to misinformation, mainly hardness related issues (edge retention and durability), Reeve for example.

-Cliff

 

[Will York]

Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
...there are significant drawbacks which were either ignored or prone to misinformation, mainly hardness related issues (edge retention and durability)...

Cliff--

Obviously there are more wear-resistant stainless steels, for better edge retention than S30V, but from what Phil Wilson has written of late it sounds like S30V is the new toughness champ among "true" stainless steels.

When you cite "durability issues", are you saying there are more "durable" stainless blade materials out there than S30V in categories other than wear resistance?

Or were you making a general comparison of S30V with all available blade materials including INFI and the non-stainless CPM steels?

Thanks,
Will

 

[Cliff Stamp]

WILL YORK :

When you cite "durability issues", are you saying there are more "durable" stainless blade materials out there than S30V in categories other than wear resistance?

Yes, BG-42 is generally ran harder than Hossom and Simonich are running S30V (and others with the Bos heat treat I assume), and thus will be more durable in respect to edge rolling and impaction assuming that you don't exceed the fracture toughness, so it depends on what you are cutting. Even ATS-34 is usually ran harder than Reeve is running S30V, so you will see problems with excessive deformation just as people noted with Spyderco's ~55 RC S60V. R.J. Martin is running S30V harder, as is Wilson, who will most likely be at 62 RC with some time. So a lot of it depends on how you felt about the above (BG-42/ ATS-34), if you had problems with them chipping S30V would be more durable, and would be well recieved.

-Cliff