How fine is the line between a saber and scandi grind?

Joe Duder

Joe Duder

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Jan 22, 2013
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I've seen so many sabers that look like scandis and vice versa. At what point does a scandi become a saber grind? The BRKT Gunny scandi looks like a saber grind. The primary bevel goes a little less than half way up the blade. I've seen this time and time again. I'm confused.

Has the scandi grind become lost in translation/execution?

Is it all in the eye of the beholder? I sure hope not.

My intentions are to clarify a practice, not a specific knife makers practice. I used BRKT as an example. I'd prefer that this thread stay in the General Knife Discussion forum.
 
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The primary bevel you're talking about is the actual edge bevel. Scandi grinds are zero ground, no secondary bevel like a saber grind would have.
 
Scandinavian (scandi) grinds have no secondary bevel and the edge tapers out to the full thickness of the blade (Like your standard Mora). A saber grind will have a flat, full-thickness, section of blade down to about wherever the designer feels the secondary grind needs to start. the secondary grind will taper down to a certain point and then the primary edge bevel will begin. If there is any grind that tapers the blade thickness before the primary edge grind begins (if we start at the spine and move towards the edge) then it is not a scandi grind.
 
bigghoss, you are confusing me.

A full flat grind begins at the back of the blade and tapers to the edge at the same angle on both sides.

A saber grind leaves the flat of the blade unground most of the way to the edge. The primary bevel then begins and continues to the edge. A "scandi" grind is a saber grind.

All these grinds can add a secondary bevel at the very edge, since a zero edge can be fragile. Even Scandinavian grinds delivered with a zero edge will generally get a secondary bevel from the user if the knife is used for general utility rather than woodworking.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
bigghoss, you are confusing me.

A full flat grind begins at the back of the blade and tapers to the edge at the same angle on both sides.

A saber grind leaves the flat of the blade unground most of the way to the edge. The primary bevel then begins and continues to the edge. A "scandi" grind is a saber grind.

All these grinds can add a secondary bevel at the very edge, since a zero edge can be fragile. Even Scandinavian grinds delivered with a zero edge will generally get a secondary bevel from the user if the knife is used for general utility rather than woodworking.
Click to expand...

Pretty much. The term "scandi grind" denotes (in the industry--the name is technically erroneous) a specific type of saber grind--specifically a (relatively) flat zeroed saber grind. There is a bit of wiggle room in what qualifies as a scandi and what does not:

1) A secondary bevel may be present if it's only visible under close scrutiny of the edge. This barely-present secondary bevel is what's known as a "microbevel" and is applied using only 1-3 LIGHT strokes per side during final honing. During resharpening the blade must be re-zeroed if the blade is to remain a scandi--otherwise it will slowly convert itself to a conventional saber grind.

2) The bevel may be slightly hollow or convex, but only minimally so. Moras are typically slightly hollow ground because it's easy to manufacture and quickly converts to flat with subsequent resharpening due to the two points of stone contact. Many scandis will become slightly convex over time from resharpening, but they don't lose their classification so long as the bevel isn't overly convexed--if that occurs it would just be a convex saber grind.

That's my take on it, at least. As mentioned, the term "scandi grind" is kind of an erroneous one, as tons of different grinds exist traditionally in the Nordic countries, and the so-called scandi grind isn't limited to the countries that are geographically defined as Scandinavia. A more accurate term would be a Mora grind, since they're consistently used as the prototypical example, but the term "scandi" has pretty well cemented itself in the vernacular of our hobby.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
bigghoss, you are confusing me.

A full flat grind begins at the back of the blade and tapers to the edge at the same angle on both sides.

A saber grind leaves the flat of the blade unground most of the way to the edge. The primary bevel then begins and continues to the edge. A "scandi" grind is a saber grind.

All these grinds can add a secondary bevel at the very edge, since a zero edge can be fragile. Even Scandinavian grinds delivered with a zero edge will generally get a secondary bevel from the user if the knife is used for general utility rather than woodworking.
Click to expand...

FortyTwoBlades said:
Pretty much. The term "scandi grind" denotes (in the industry--the name is technically erroneous) a specific type of saber grind--specifically a (relatively) flat zeroed saber grind. There is a bit of wiggle room in what qualifies as a scandi and what does not:

1) A secondary bevel may be present if it's only visible under close scrutiny of the edge. This barely-present secondary bevel is what's known as a "microbevel" and is applied using only 1-3 LIGHT strokes per side during final honing. During resharpening the blade must be re-zeroed if the blade is to remain a scandi--otherwise it will slowly convert itself to a conventional saber grind.

2) The bevel may be slightly hollow or convex, but only minimally so. Moras are typically slightly hollow ground because it's easy to manufacture and quickly converts to flat with subsequent resharpening due to the two points of stone contact. Many scandis will become slightly convex over time from resharpening, but they don't lose their classification so long as the bevel isn't overly convexed--if that occurs it would just be a convex saber grind.

That's my take on it, at least. As mentioned, the term "scandi grind" is kind of an erroneous one, as tons of different grinds exist traditionally in the Nordic countries, and the so-called scandi grind isn't limited to the countries that are geographically defined as Scandinavia. A more accurate term would be a Mora grind, since they're consistently used as the prototypical example, but the term "scandi" has pretty well cemented itself in the vernacular of our hobby.
Click to expand...

To me a scandi grind has no secondary edge bevel, even a microbevel. A scandi that comes with a secondary edge bevel is just a really poorly executed saber grind IMO.
 
I will avoid the argument of what angel defines a scandie grind, and stick with what I understand to be the most defining characteristics of the two grinds. This is not a complete definition but it should answer the question

Scandie grind = flat grind with no secondary bevel.

Saber grind = has a smooth curve and may have a secondary bevel


there is a cross section drawing at the bottom of this page

http://www.dogwoodcustomknives.com/options-and-ordering/
 
In my understanding scandi grind has no secondary bevel. So from my point of view Mora if modified with "micro-bevel" at the edge has got a saber grind. I does not make sense to talk about "nearly scrandi grind": why to complicate things!
There is a perfectly good reason why people put a micro-bevel or convex the edge on scandi grind. But then as the problem with "weak" edge goes away, so does the scandi grind.
 
Shotgun said:
To me a scandi grind has no secondary edge bevel, even a microbevel. A scandi that comes with a secondary edge bevel is just a really poorly executed saber grind IMO.
Click to expand...

Then, under your definition, all Moras except for their dedicated wood carving models are not scandi grinds. ;)

Scope out a minty-fresh Mora from their Craftline or sporting lines and they all have microbevels. There's a reason why they're called MICRObevels, however. Like I said, you shouldn't be able to see them unless really carefully scrutinizing them. I don't mean at a distance, either. I mean get it right up in your face under bright light.

This is typical, and to be expected as part of the style. My understanding is it's rare for a knife of that grind style to be kept at 100% zeroed edge in the Nordic countries if the knife is to be used for anything harder than cutting soft, clean wood.
 
Moras have a microbevel...?

My Classic certainly doesn't. I dunno if I would call that one of their dedicated wood carving knives. I dunno, if a knife is advertised as Scandi grind I don't expect secondary bevel.... micro or otherwise. :|
 
Concat said:
Moras have a microbevel...?

My Classic certainly doesn't. I dunno if I would call that one of their dedicated wood carving knives. I dunno, if a knife is advertised as Scandi grind I don't expect secondary bevel.... micro or otherwise. :|
Click to expand...

Yes--it does. MICRO. ;)

Just checked all of my #2 Classics I have in stock, the #137 Classic, Companions of all types...they all have it. The #162 does not, as it's a dedicated carver.
 
Well I'll be damned. My Mora has been sharpened a couple times now, so obviously I can't go back and check myself.
 
dogwood dan said:
I will avoid the argument of what angel defines a scandie grind, and stick with what I understand to be the most defining characteristics of the two grinds. This is not a complete definition but it should answer the question

Scandie grind = flat grind with no secondary bevel.

Saber grind = has a smooth curve and may have a secondary bevel


there is a cross section drawing at the bottom of this page

http://www.dogwoodcustomknives.com/options-and-ordering/
Click to expand...

What this gentleman said. The diagram at the bottom of his page shows the difference.

Laurence
 
Benyamin,

There is part of the problem, since these terms are not written in stone anywhere and are subject to different interpretation. Different parts of the world can use different terms and then there can be language & translation.

Its not a Flat, or Hollow ground blade, so it fails into the category of convex since part of the grind is curved out.
It would be nice if makers and users agreed on a set of terms to use for all knife/sword terminology.
It hasn't happened yet.

Laurence
 
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