How fine is the line between a saber and scandi grind?

[Thomas Linton]

The "Scandi" grind was originally defined by UK "bushcrafters" as: a saber grind; flat bevel to the edge; and no secondary bevel (The resulting edge being irrationally called a "zero edge.")

Almost no knives are made that way or have ever been made that way (as confirmed by a number of Scandivanian and Finnish makers - including, repeatedly, the moderator of the "Scandinavian" forum at British Blades). BUT the name has sales value, so any number of knives that do not meet the UK definition are called "Scandi," as you can see in this thread. As a result the term has become meaningless in practice - like "puukko." You need to check to see what you are in fact getting.

I bought a (1) MORA that came with a "Scandi Grind" as officially defined by the Brits. A "Classic" model. That's it. None of the Helle's, other MORA, Bergens, Issakki, or many customs or semi-customs from Nordic countries were made that way. Certainly, the Spyderco puukko was not, although called "Scandi" IIRC. And let us not even mention Fallkniven.

All the used knives I have from Nordic makers reached me with a convex secondary bevel as that is what free-hand sharpening does for you.

It is certainly possible to make a "Scandi Grind" knife. The concept is very simple. So why it is hardly ever done?

The world rolled on for many a century without the "Scandi Grind" --- and will continue to do so.

 

[untamed]

Hope this helps. . .

1. Hollow
2. Full flat
3. Sabre
4. Chisel
5. Flat
6. Convexed

 

[HoosierQ]

Hope this helps. . .

1. Hollow
2. Full flat
3. Sabre
4. Chisel
5. Flat
6. Convexed

It would help if it were correct. However I don't think this is right. As diagramed (and assuming scale and proportion may be exaggerated for clarity), number 3 would be what is generally refered to as "Scandi" and number 5 will be the sabre. I cannot imagine that "flat" and "full flat" are different...and regardless, there would seem to be nothing flat about number 5. I hope this helps!

 

[Holmesmade]

A full flat grind will taper from the spine to the edge in an uninterrupted flat with a secondary grind to produce the final cutting edge.

A saber grind will begin it's flat taper approximately 1/3 to 1/2 of the blade height down to the edge and have a secondary grind to produce the final cutting edge.

A scandi grind has ONLY the grind to produce the cutting edge and no other grind to reduce the thickness of, or put taper into the blade. The varying height of true scandi grinds is most frequently due to the stock thickness used by manufacturers. Variance due to grind angle will be less noticeable unless there is a severe angle difference which will alter blade performance significantly.

Any micro-bevel at the edge of any of these grinds is usually to remove the wire created in sharpening or as a means of somewhat reinforcing a delicate edge structure.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

I believe untamed is correct. The confusion may be because 5 and 6 are being compared to each other by calling 5 flat. In other words, 5 has a flat primary bevel with a secondary bevel, 6 is a smooth curve all the way down.

 

[marcinek]

.....

pics are better

 

[Concat]

Seems to me most people don't even use the term sabre grind. They just say flat grind, which implies a secondary bevel. And unless it states full flat grind, you can assume it's partial.

If there is actually a difference between flat grind and sabre grind... well I need it explained to me like I'm 5 years old because I just don't get it. And if there is some mystical defining ratio for bevel heights and whatnot, no one seems to be able to produce anything.

Scandi is pretty clear cut.

 

[marcinek]

This is a exaggerated cross section of a knife. Section A is unground. Depending on the size of A, the knife can be saber or scandi ground. (A is larger in a scandi ground knife than on a saber ground knife). If A is ground...the knife is not a scandi.

Section B can be flat, hollow or convex ground on either a scandi or sabre. Section B is the primary grind.

Section C is the edge grind. It can be flat, hollow, or convex. It may not exist at all. If it doesn't, the knife is zero ground.

 

[marcinek]

Full flat grind....A is the primary grind, B is the edge grind. If B doesn't exist...it is a zero full flat grind.

 

[Concat]

1. Zero ground hollow scandi or Zero ground hollow sabre
2. Zero ground Full flat
3. Zero ground flat scandi or Zero ground flat scandi
4. Chisel
5. Flat scandi with secondary (edge) grind or flat sabre with secondary (edge) grind
6. Convexed

Well that just implies sabre and scandi are interchangeable terms. Any time I have heard sabre grind being used, the knife has a secondary bevel. I've never heard of zero grind sabre. That's just scandi.

Honestly, even googling this is a nightmare. There's so many contradictory articles and forums topics on this.

 

[marcinek]

Well that just implies sabre and scandi are interchangeable terms. Any time I have heard sabre grind being used, the knife has a secondary bevel. I've never heard of zero grind sabre. That's just scandi.

Honestly, even googling this is a nightmare. There's so many contradictory articles and forums topics on this.

The sabre/scandi difference remains a mystery to me. I believe the unground portion of a scandi is larger than that on a saber.

 

[Shotgun]

1. zero edge hollow grind
2. zero edge full flat
3. scandi
4. chisel
5. sabre
6. convexed

IMO 1 and 2 would be "hollow" and "full flat" if they both had secondary edge bevels. They don't in this diagram so you need to qualify them by saying "zero grind." A scandi by definition is a zero grind so that qualification isn't necessary.

And I personally see no difference between a scandi with a secondary edge bevel and a saber. They are the same thing only the angles and length of the bevels are slightly different. But that would also hold true comparing one sabre grind from one maker with a sabre grind from another maker. So IMO, a scandi with a secondary edge bevel IS a sabre grind. Only badly made because the intent of the primary grind is to provide a relief for the material you're cutting to pass around the blade. A scandi with a secondary edge bevel is a poorly made sabre because that relief from the primary grind is generally steeper and less efficient then a traditional sabre.

 

[Shotgun]

Since so many people have a different definition of what a scandi is, maybe we should drop this terminology all together. I know that would make Thomas happy. It would be more accurate and in keeping with the description of the other grinds to simply call a scandi a "zero edge saber grind." Which is what it is to me.

 

[marcinek]

Since so many people have a different definition of what a scandi is, maybe we should drop this terminology all together. I know that would make Thomas happy. It would be more accurate and in keeping with the description of the other grinds to simply call a scandi a "zero edge saber grind." Which is what it is to me.

Agreed. Except many of them have an edge bevel.

 

[Joe Duder]

The sabre/scandi difference remains a mystery to me. I believe the unground portion of a scandi is larger than that on a saber.

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[marcinek]

I was thinking the same thing.

Actually I did more research. Please refer to my drawing in post #28.

If the ratio of the length of the unground portion (A) to the length of the ground portions (B and C) is greater than the Golden Ratio [(1 + sqrt(5))/2 ~ 1.618], then it is a scandi grind.

 

[Concat]

I need to see a source for that one...

Seems arbitrary. Moreover, where the heck does flat grind fit into the picture? And I don't mean full flat grind, I mean partial.

Bah, I could rest at peace if everyone just decided that partial flat grind = sabre, and scandi is just zero grind. No golden ratios and scandi with secondary bevel.

 

[Concat]

[double post]

 

[Thomas Linton]

I need to see a source for that one...

Seems arbitrary.

. . . could rest at peace if . . . scandi is just zero grind.

So if they don't grind it at all you'd be happy? Unsharpened pry-bar??

It would be nice if everyone agreed on what the labels mean, but there is no "authority" - no Academy d'Blades.

 

[Concat]

hehe, well "zero grind" is a misnomer for sure... it just means no secondary bevel. Doesn't mean no grind at all