How Good Are Chisel Grind Blades for Folders?

nozh2002 said:
As I understand single side grind is used by Japanese only for easy to sharpen. Yanagiba and Duba kitchen knives has opposite side slightly bended, to shatpen it you (or regular Japanes housewife) need to lay blade flat on waterstone and just move it - this way it will take edge angle exactely the one knifemaker put on it. And for Yanagiba this is very sharp angle, hard to maintain with free hand sharpening even for skilled sharpener.

This is what I was told in Kukihide knife shop in Yokohama - You do not need special skills to maintain this exceptional edge...

Other then this it may be needed for some specific operation in woodworking, but this is what chisels for.

There is no benefit for SD over two side grinds or to any other aspects - it is give up for to make it easy to sharpen, nothing more, IMHO. At least all Japanese Fighting and Hunting knives have normal grind - and usually convex, as well as many Japanese kitchen knives also have two side grinds.

Thanks, Vassili.
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no CG's are not hard to free hand sharpen, i prefer the way the EKI sight shows and use a gerber steel instead of the cardboard, but thats just me.

ernie emerson knows a thing or 2 about knives and he is convinced that for SD the CG is the best way to go.

do i agree?? i dont know, depends maybe?? i know one thing he probably knows more about it than me lol.

i do know that if i was gonna use a knife for SD it would be an emerson, not neccesarily a production, a custom zero grind '8 or a custom '13 are imho absolutely as good as it gets for SD with a folding knife. a production '12 or any of the tantos would be right up there too imho.
 
SIFU1A said:
no CG's are not hard to free hand sharpen, i prefer the way the EKI sight shows and use a gerber steel instead of the cardboard, but thats just me.

ernie emerson knows a thing or 2 about knives and he is convinced that for SD the CG is the best way to go.

do i agree?? i dont know, depends maybe?? i know one thing he probably knows more about it than me lol.

i do know that if i was gonna use a knife for SD it would be an emerson, not neccesarily a production, a custom zero grind '8 or a custom '13 are imho absolutely as good as it gets for SD with a folding knife. a production '12 or any of the tantos would be right up there too imho.
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Shure CG was designed for easy to sharpen by regular Japanese housewife and way to sharpen it obvious, so this is my point.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
Shure CG was designed for easy to sharpen by regular Japanese housewife and way to sharpen it obvious, so this is my point.

Thanks, Vassili.
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Simplicity has its benefits, im sure many people like me dont have the cash to buy a waterstones or a belt machine. If simple lap stone is all thats needed then more the power to the chisel grind,

Im quite interested about the Self Defence side of this debate.Does anyone have factual infomation regarding CG cutting ability vs the V style edge?
 
I don't like chisel grinds except for SD and peeling apples!
I bought an Emerson and cut a sweet melon with it...well that blade circled off to my right - away from my supporting hand. Fine for me but for my left-handed son...? He may pick up the knife and cut something similar and have that blade swoop right into his supporting (right) hand. (Son was 12 at the time.) I returned the Emerson and traded for something else. (I always found Emerson knives too small for my hands anyway.)

I do own a CRKT M1 & M16 and my son knows about the 'danger' of using these. He thought I was really dumb when I explained the 'danger' to him...but then that's just me being fussy. That M1 peels an apple really nicely....no wasted flesh there!
 
It looks like people here fighting on knives on regular bases and so SD aspect is important and well understood... I should admit I have no such experience, so do not feel qualified to talk about this.

Without this kind of experience I may be only easy target for different sort of marketing which may declare this or that feature are great for SD. Because I without real understanding of this matter I can be tricked to easy. This is why I am pretty cautious with all this SD claim. I afraid that all this SD matter is just great marketing vehicle... hopefully harmless...

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Self defense is always serious. If you dont think about it then people need to stay home. It is no marketing ploy either. Let each of us make uo our own minds, as SD is important. I am proud of my chisel ground knives.
 
If a knife is sharp, I don't see how it can be worse than a chisel grind. I, too, have an M16 CG, and so far I can't get it as sharp as my Cold Steel Recon 1 w/440A. The Recon will slice through leather without a problem, but my M16 won't. I've got it fairly sharp, but I don't see how one chisel grind is better than two, which is essentially what a V grind blade is: two chisels back to back.

Emerson's section on how to sharpen a CG knife is not really helpful. I had to use an extreme angle to get my CG knives sharp, and even then they weren't as sharp as my other knives.

Or am I wrong?
 
I'd probably use an Emerson in the kitchen a lot more if it was a right hand grind because then it would be similar to some chef knives I have but the fact is even though I do a lot of things left handed I don't usually chop or slice things that way so they just don't much come in handy.

As a result of the grinds a lot of times I find that when I carry an Emerson I can't carry it by itself and instead end up carrying my regular V grind knives too because those just come in more handy. Much as I like Ernie and admire his grips and ergos I find that I just cannot really find much use for his knives. They just don't fit my needs very well.


STR
 
You have said it best. I have several neck knives, and whether I carry one with a v grind or chisel grind, I still carry a regular pocket knife with a v grind. I have tried carrying just a chisel ground pocket knife along, but found my self asking for trouble, as it really isnt practical even for opening envelopes. Besides I have nicked my self trying to usr a chisel ground knife for other things, so I always have a v grind knife with me too.
 
I think manufacturers would benefit from putting the chisel grind on the other side of the blade. I think most right handed people would find the knives much more useful in everyday situations if they were sharpened on the right side. I like knives with chisel grinds, but i am left handed. I have used a knife with the grind on the right side before and it was far more difficult for me to use in normal situations. The chisel grind is just on the wrong side for right handers.
 
What STR has said is true. But why are some people so defensive about the CG? I've seen a number of people talking about how good it is for self defense without really explaining why. There are many things that work "on paper" more than they do in actual practice (tanto designs for example). I've left a number of posts inquiring on varying aspects of CG, plus I've done some searching of old threads and all of them seem to die out without anyone ever really explaining why I should be thrilled with them except that "Ernie" Emerson likes to sell them like that, and he's a very good knife maker.

EdgeOn made a good observation when he noted that nearly all CG knives were made for left handed people. From my experience, he's right on.

Finally, let's take a look at what the Emerson FAQ has to say:

Although a knife is not a chisel, those properties, when applied to a knife grind have almost magical effect. A chisel ground knife, being beveled, (ground) on one side only, possesses greater strength, (due to increased cross sectional mass) and they cut with an ease not found on any other type of blade.

If this were true, why aren't there any chisel shaped bows on boats? Why do boats slide through the water, parting it on both sides? Wait, there are chisel shaped boats, kind of. They're World War II troop carriers. This puts the chisel top-down and it worked so well it really hasn't been used on any water craft where speed and precision are important.

But even that's giving the chisel design an unfair advantage. It's really more fair when the chisel would be from either starboard to port or port to starboard. Would such a bow work on a boat? Perhaps, but cutting through the water in a straight line would be problematic.

So why should we think a chisel point will move through anything more efficiently than a V grind? For all its hype, Cold Steel's video demonstrations fail to show any inherent weakness in its V grind knives. They slice through cardboard and free hanging manila rope, and then they suffer all sorts of indignities at the hands of its staff. Could a CG blade cut through free hanging rope as well and as often as Cold Steel's V grind knives? (Sure, some of their blades are chisel ground, but most of their tests are done with V grinds.)

Again, CG advocates need to tell us where the strengths/advantages are, outside of peeling apples.
 
I add my voice to this too. So far only easy to sharpen explanation seems reasonable, but that knives - Yanagiba Deba has slightly bended blade so when sharpening it hits edge and bit of spine not entire surface.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. Also it may be easy to produce because it has only two layers of lamination not three. This is my Yanagiba made by master Akitada:

Akitada-Yanagiba-08.jpg


It has no secondary bevel, so edge angle is extremely small and I can not imagine how to maintain it with non CG and usual sharpening method.
 
Years back Ernie made me one of his custom CQC6 folders (that was my first nice folder) that I used for what seemed like the longest time.
Long story short - it was a real meat cutter, and felt good in my hand. I didn't realize at the time that it was a bad design or deficient in any way, I just used it with confidence that it was a well made knife that I couldn't have afforded on my own.
 
My philosophy is that if somethiing is working for someone, they'd be a fool to change it. Many people use a chisel grind w/ no problems, but I'm only having problems getting my CRKTs sharp. I'm not suffering with functionability at the moment.

I did do some cardboard today and there's no doubt that the V-grind cuts straighter and nicer, but the CG did cut deeply, though.
 
Confederate said:
What STR has said is true. But why are some people so defensive about the CG? I've seen a number of people talking about how good it is for self defense without really explaining why. There are many things that work "on paper" more than they do in actual practice (tanto designs for example). I've left a number of posts inquiring on varying aspects of CG, plus I've done some searching of old threads and all of them seem to die out without anyone ever really explaining why I should be thrilled with them except that "Ernie" Emerson likes to sell them like that, and he's a very good knife maker.

EdgeOn made a good observation when he noted that nearly all CG knives were made for left handed people. From my experience, he's right on.

Finally, let's take a look at what the Emerson FAQ has to say:

Although a knife is not a chisel, those properties, when applied to a knife grind have almost magical effect. A chisel ground knife, being beveled, (ground) on one side only, possesses greater strength, (due to increased cross sectional mass) and they cut with an ease not found on any other type of blade.

If this were true, why aren't there any chisel shaped bows on boats? Why do boats slide through the water, parting it on both sides? Wait, there are chisel shaped boats, kind of. They're World War II troop carriers. This puts the chisel top-down and it worked so well it really hasn't been used on any water craft where speed and precision are important.

But even that's giving the chisel design an unfair advantage. It's really more fair when the chisel would be from either starboard to port or port to starboard. Would such a bow work on a boat? Perhaps, but cutting through the water in a straight line would be problematic.

So why should we think a chisel point will move through anything more efficiently than a V grind? For all its hype, Cold Steel's video demonstrations fail to show any inherent weakness in its V grind knives. They slice through cardboard and free hanging manila rope, and then they suffer all sorts of indignities at the hands of its staff. Could a CG blade cut through free hanging rope as well and as often as Cold Steel's V grind knives? (Sure, some of their blades are chisel ground, but most of their tests are done with V grinds.)

Again, CG advocates need to tell us where the strengths/advantages are, outside of peeling apples.
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i have heard many arguements pro and con on CG's but ya are the very 1st person to compare them with a boat hull lol, and this has what exactly to do with anything??

no one said that the "V" grind wasnt good its been cutting for what, probably 2000 yrs now lol.

if ya wanna see some hype check out the cold steel vidoes lol.

still maintain that for most stuff RH and LH grind on a CG matters very little.

of course i dont cut melons with any of my SD folders.
 
Okay, so I was being a bit facetious with the boat thing, but I'm still having a tough time getting my Columbia River CGs sharp. Who knows, maybe it's the steel? But the last thing I need is to go hear or read more CS hype! I have a number of CS knives and I love 'em, plus I don't have any problems sharpening any of them, including their Pro-Lite tanto, which is CG. I also don't care how the chisel grind is ground, actually, but I would like to sharpen the thing. I've written CRKT and told them I couldn't get their knives sharp and I haven't heard a thing. But I have searched the web and found that there are others with the same problem...which is a shame, because I love my M16-14LE! And my M21-14! And my Desert Cruiser! All have CG blades and all are about as sharp as letter openers, and they all seem to be as sharp as they can get.

Is it likely it's crummy steel or a crummy sharpener?
 
Cfd - here is more with pics http://www.emersonknives.com/EK_Sharpening_Index.html
To simplify - sharpen the beveled edge until you feel a burr on the other side of the blade (flat side), then remove the burr.
Personally here's how I sharpened with my old CQC6 - using a stone (at home) in small circular motions on the beveled edge, then a straight, light pass to remove the burr from the other (flat) side.
You know, I didn't really get into the pros & cons of chisel grinds when I carried that CQC6; it just felt good in my hand & was a well made piece that I had confidence in.
Hope that helps.
 
i've gotten CRKT CG's plenty sharp myself so imho ya just arent doing it correectly.
 
I can't raise a burr on the CRKTs, though I can on V-grinds. In short, I can't seem to find the right angle. Using a Sharpmaker w/a 20° angle, I can't get an edge.

I've read the Emerson site, but will have to go back and re-read it. I've had better luck sharpening my Cold Steel CG tantos, but I seem to be missing something with these CRKTs. Durn shame, too, since I like them so much! But I've heard of many others who have this same problem with them.
 
I think thays your problem, trying to sharpen a chisel on the sharpmaker. Use a stone, its much easier.
 
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