How long should a razor edge last

Ankerson said:
I think Joe's thread is more than enough, he covers things really well.

I would have to add a lot more into it to make it a sticky...

HT and tempering, and all the technical information on how the alloys/carbides work and retained austenite and how that effects the steels performance.

Things can get very involved in a real hurry...
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He has an excellent stick I agree, I guess what I'm looking for is for more people to read it! :D
 
Folderguy said:
If you'd like the opinion of a non geek in relation to steel hardness, here's my real world take on all this.

When I say a steel is soft, it means it is very easy to sharpen in a very short period of time and give me a serviceable edge, meaning it will cut stuff I want to cut, like say a cardboard carton.
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A lot could depend on a lot of different variables there, what a person is sharpening with, the steel type etc.....

Folderguy said:
If I say a steel is hard, it means it's a son-of-a-gun to sharpen quickly and easily, but will probably not need to be sharpened as soon as a soft steel might. Case in point, some time ago I bought a replacement power hack saw blade to make a kitchen knife. The steel is so hard on the edge that it's awful. I called the manufacturer and spoke with their tech department to find out what the hardness rating of the cutting edge is, and they told me around 65-66, if memory serves.
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That blade is likely M2, and has pretty high carbide percentage....

Folderguy said:
This blade is so tough to sharpen that it's always a chore, although it doesn't need it very often.
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That's a combination of alloy content and RC hardness, a different steel like say 1095 would be easier to sharpen at the same hardness range...

Folderguy said:
If the steel were "softer" I'd just touch it up a bit with a sharpening steel for about 10-15 seconds, max, and get back to slicing tomatoes or steak or whatever.
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It wouldn't be THAT much easier.....

Folderguy said:
If a knife cannot be relatively easily sharpened, as compared to say a KaBar USMC knife (57-58 RC, if memory serves) it will be fine so long as I have access to some of my power tools. Otherwise, it's staying in the drawer, and saved for the tough stuff in the kitchen.
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That's low alloy and low RC hardness, yeah easier to sharpen....

Folderguy said:
With an EZ-Lap and most blades, a serviceable edge can be obtained quickly in the field.
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Same as with a ceramic rod or a pocket SIC stone...

Folderguy said:
So, in sum, softer is quicker to sharpen, with edges dulling more rapidly; harder is tougher to sharpen with edges generally lasting longer.
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They aren't really they same, NOT really.....

A lot of things working here, MOSTLY alloy content and not so much RC hardness......

A 1095 low alloy blade at 64 will be easier to sharpen than an M2 blade at 58 due to the wear resistant carbides in the steel.

So hard and soft doesn't really explain what is really going on....
 
Ankerson said:
A lot could depend on a lot of different variables there, what a person is sharpening with, the steel type etc.....



That blade is likely M2, and has pretty high carbide percentage....



That's a combination of alloy content and RC hardness, a different steel like say 1095 would be easier to sharpen at the same hardness range...



It wouldn't be THAT much easier.....



That's low alloy and low RC hardness, yeah easier to sharpen....



Same as with a ceramic rod or a pocket SIC stone...



They aren't really they same, NOT really.....

A lot of things working here, MOSTLY alloy content and not so much RC hardness......

A 1095 low alloy blade at 64 will be easier to sharpen than an M2 blade at 58 due to the wear resistant carbides in the steel.

So hard and soft doesn't really explain what is really going on....
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Sorry, but I haven't figured out how to do the multi response thing on forums.

As I hoped for and expected, you brought some much needed clarity to this confusing subject. Thank you!

Now, in the FWIW column, for most people, the answer you gave is too complicated, because, well, the topic is extremely complex. It's not your or anyone else's fault, it's just the way it is.

So for my friends who are really, really, really non knife guys, when they ask me, as some have, what the difference in steels is, I'll try to give them easy to understand responses they can relate to, and unless they are asking about a higher quality knife such as a Benchmade, or Strider, or Emerson, or Zero Tolerance, or Kershaw, of Spyderco.... you catch my drift, and not some $6.95 truck stop special, I'll tell them soft steels... as in some really cheap truck stop or gas station knives (I'm sure there are some decent blades out there available for cheap from those places of business) vs. a razor blade knife. If they take a file to one or the other, they'll feel the difference immediately. That sort of explanation for my non knife friends is about all they're looking for: can I sharpen this easily or will I have to take it to someone and spend money to get it back to usefulness?

A few years ago I asked Ernest Emerson about the 154 CM steel he used, and he told me he basically doesn't go changing steels to the most up to date steel, because unless the difference is dramatic, it's not a good business decision. Have to agree with him, coming from a maker's standpoint. From the user's standpoint, when I see 154 CM, or AUS 8A, or S30V, or M390, I know it's a good steel, and will probably be happy with it. If I see AUS 4 or AUS 6, I think cheap Chinese steel, even if it isn't. A blade these days with AUS 4 or AUS 6 steel will be a cheapie; if it's more than really cheap, it'll not be on my buy list.
 
Folderguy said:
Sorry, but I haven't figured out how to do the multi response thing on forums.

As I hoped for and expected, you brought some much needed clarity to this confusing subject. Thank you!

Now, in the FWIW column, for most people, the answer you gave is too complicated, because, well, the topic is extremely complex. It's not your or anyone else's fault, it's just the way it is.

So for my friends who are really, really, really non knife guys, when they ask me, as some have, what the difference in steels is, I'll try to give them easy to understand responses they can relate to, and unless they are asking about a higher quality knife such as a Benchmade, or Strider, or Emerson, or Zero Tolerance, or Kershaw, of Spyderco.... you catch my drift, and not some $6.95 truck stop special, I'll tell them soft steels... as in some really cheap truck stop or gas station knives (I'm sure there are some decent blades out there available for cheap from those places of business) vs. a razor blade knife. If they take a file to one or the other, they'll feel the difference immediately. That sort of explanation for my non knife friends is about all they're looking for: can I sharpen this easily or will I have to take it to someone and spend money to get it back to usefulness?

A few years ago I asked Ernest Emerson about the 154 CM steel he used, and he told me he basically doesn't go changing steels to the most up to date steel, because unless the difference is dramatic, it's not a good business decision. Have to agree with him, coming from a maker's standpoint. From the user's standpoint, when I see 154 CM, or AUS 8A, or S30V, or M390, I know it's a good steel, and will probably be happy with it. If I see AUS 4 or AUS 6, I think cheap Chinese steel, even if it isn't. A blade these days with AUS 4 or AUS 6 steel will be a cheapie; if it's more than really cheap, it'll not be on my buy list.
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That would be difficult to explain when comparing a $6.95 gas station special to a $40 Spyderco or something to a non knife person, and all they usually see is cost.....

Most will never experience the performance difference because they would never buy the more expensive knife in the 1st place, that is reality.....

AND if they don't know how to sharpen or they are used to some $3 Wal-Mart stone then they will have some issues with the higher alloy steels and the steel will wear the crap out of the stone....

Explain it how you want, but personally I would lean towards quality and let them experience the performance differences if they choose to get the more expensive knife.

If they come on a forum like this one or go to a gun or knife show and start talking about soft and hard steels the people will have the same reaction that I did... HUH? WHAT?.....
 
Auraria said:
Hahaha, glad to see you try LOL.
If you need any clerification on anything I'll try helping to the best of my abilities and knowledge bud.
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Thanks for the offer. At this point, with over 50 knives, most folders, but some good/excellent quality fixed blades, I have a pretty good idea what it takes to put a decent edge on a blade, and keep all of them shaving sharp.

If my Worksharp (oh horrors! right?!) can't profile a blade, it's not for me. If I can't get it to raise a burr, it's not for me. So, no ceramic knives. If it takes more than a few minutes to go from butter knife dull to shaving sharp, there's something wrong. Catch my drift? :D
 
Folderguy said:
Thanks for the offer. At this point, with over 50 knives, most folders, but some good/excellent quality fixed blades, I have a pretty good idea what it takes to put a decent edge on a blade, and keep all of them shaving sharp.

If my Worksharp (oh horrors! right?!) can't profile a blade, it's not for me. If I can't get it to raise a burr, it's not for me. So, no ceramic knives. If it takes more than a few minutes to go from butter knife dull to shaving sharp, there's something wrong. Catch my drift? :D
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I got you lol, I have the Work Shark KO and over 350 bucks in stones lol.
I have many grits from 120-6000# for the worksharp and 600-5000# grit in whetstones, diamond stones, and Arkansas stones :p
I know the struggle.
 
Ankerson said:
That would be difficult to explain when comparing a $6.95 gas station special to a $40 Spyderco or something to a non knife person, and all they usually see is cost.....

Most will never experience the performance difference because they would never buy the more expensive knife in the 1st place, that is reality.....

AND if they don't know how to sharpen or they are used to some $3 Wal-Mart stone then they will have some issues with the higher alloy steels and the steel will wear the crap out of the stone....

Explain it how you want, but personally I would lean towards quality and let them experience the performance differences if they choose to get the more expensive knife.

If they come on a forum like this one or go to a gun or knife show and start talking about soft and hard steels the people will have the same reaction that I did... HUH? WHAT?.....
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Well, the first thing I recommend to someone who asks about what knife to buy is to ask them what it is for. If it's for hunting, or for daily carry, or as a tool to open paint cans and so on, I'll make a recommendation, and will steer them towards good quality knives. Such as Kershaw, or Spyderco. I may show them a Benchmade, as I have quite a few. Or a Zero Tolerance, and explain how there are real differences in quality when you start paying more. And how those differences really mean something, not only in terms of function but pride of ownership. Many people are open to understanding why it is a good thing to get the best you can afford or want to spend when buying something that hopefully will last.

Telling them about differences in lock design may not mean a whole lot to them, but if I show them a Cold Steel video where the Triad lock is tested and abused, that really gets most folks attention.

Sometimes, just showing someone a really excellent pocket knife can get them started, as it did with me a few years ago. What an incredible world of knives are available these days.
 
Folderguy said:
Well, the first thing I recommend to someone who asks about what knife to buy is to ask them what it is for. If it's for hunting, or for daily carry, or as a tool to open paint cans and so on, I'll make a recommendation, and will steer them towards good quality knives. Such as Kershaw, or Spyderco. I may show them a Benchmade, as I have quite a few. Or a Zero Tolerance, and explain how there are real differences in quality when you start paying more. And how those differences really mean something, not only in terms of function but pride of ownership. Many people are open to understanding why it is a good thing to get the best you can afford or want to spend when buying something that hopefully will last.

Telling them about differences in lock design may not mean a whole lot to them, but if I show them a Cold Steel video where the Triad lock is tested and abused, that really gets most folks attention.

Sometimes, just showing someone a really excellent pocket knife can get them started, as it did with me a few years ago. What an incredible world of knives are available these days.
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I usually try and point them to something in the $40 range to start with if they have been used to the cheaper knives, but if they are used to the $35 knives then I point them to the next stage up from there and see what their reaction is.

It can be tough sometimes....
 
Ankerson said:
I usually try and point them to something in the $40 range to start with if they have been used to the cheaper knives, but if they are used to the $35 knives then I point them to the next stage up from there and see what their reaction is.

It can be tough sometimes....
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I usually start my buddies out with a SOG or a Kershaw then move them up.
Speaking of folders, I can't wait for my ZT 0550 to come in this week.
 
Here's a photo of a knife I just purchased a few days ago. It's a damascus bladed folder, and the commentaries from non knife friends were interesting.

Here's the pic:




Some comments were along these lines... "Damascus... hmm... is that really Damascus, made in Damascus?" and "That's the most stunning knife I've ever seen" and "Wow... that's SHARP..." and "What did that cost, $500?" and "That's really old school" and "That's 40 or 50 years old" and "Damascus is the best steel made, much better than the stuff they make these days" and "Wow, that's heavy. Imagine if you clocked someone with that."

As you can see, those comments coming from 6 or 7 friends are all over the place. If one of them asks me about blade steel or locks or what makes a quality knife, it's plenty tough to give them a good answer. Best thing is to show them the knife shaving hair, or slicing paper, or cigar caps, or show them quality of workmanship, or how easily a knife opens and closes, or how handsome it is.

When they ask about a specific steel, and say, for instance, is that SV30 (sic) steel? No, it's Elmax. And Elmax is rated a bit "better' than S30V. And suggest they check out the thread on Bladeforums where steels are ranked. So far, I have not had one person ever tell me they've checked Bladeforums out. Why not? Probably because they aren't really interested in it. But if they know that Elmax is considered a bit better than S30V, that means something to them. What does it mean? Heck if I know....:confused:
 
Auraria said:
Thanks bud, any clue what the folded steel is?
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The listing says this " This genuine Damascus hunting knife by Szco Supplies is comprised of no less than 260 layers of pattern welded Damascus steel in its blade. The handle is constructed of stag. The bolsters are brass. This knife comes with a genuine leather sheath."

No idea what kind of steel it is, but it's RC isn't too high. Not tough to sharpen.

Here are some pics of the filework on the blade and back:





 
Wow, I didn't mean to sound so vague in my post to op. I just didn't want to take up 2.5 pages of this thread talking about metallurgy:D

I understand that there is no distinction/definition of "hard or soft" steel, but in the instance of op's "why is s30v better at holding an edge that a noname/sak steel" I think its safe to say s30v can be called "harder" and will hold an edge longer than said steels (not all). S30V is harder to sharpen than something like sak steel because it is harder and more resilient.

I dont claim to be an expert, but I didnt think op wanted a scientific explanation:p
 
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