how long until a knife becomes a short sword

[FortyTwoBlades]

While I don't doubt photographers had props, are you trying to say that the soldiers didn't really carry D Guard Bowies? Or just that they didn't carry large (sword length) D Guard Bowies? You might be able to make a case for the latter, but...

The large number of original Civil War era D Guard Bowies in existence today (you can get them on eBay) would indicate to me that they were very prevalent. And as a "poor man's sword" I can imagine that the long ones were not uncommon, but...they are not as well represented in the ones still in existence.

If all the D Guard Bowies were just photographers' props, there would not be many still in existence.

First off, eBay sellers are prone towards mis-identifying things if they think it'll generate more clicks and bids. There are jokes in the antiques world about how just about anything big and knife-like is a bowie knife, any weird long edged tool is a whaling tool, any big axe is an executioner's axe, etc. in addition to a huge number of fakes being made, artificially aged, and put up for sale. What I'm saying, however, is to take portraits with a grain of salt. They often do not accurately illustrate what a given soldier wore or carried. Bowies in general were private purchase items rather than issued in most cases, and were kind of a pop-culture phenomenon of their period. If I remember correctly there was some small number of them issued in the South, but those are pretty scarce compared to private purchase examples. In general, be skeptical unless there's well-documented provenance for a given piece.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

It's worth noting that of all the horrendous injuries and fatalities sustained by both sides in the Civil War, less than 2% of recorded cases were caused by swords, knives, or other edged weapons, and the majority of them were either self-inflicted or the result of camp quarrels.

 

[DrHenley]

It's worth noting that of all the horrendous injuries and fatalities sustained by both sides in the Civil War, less than 2% of recorded cases were caused by swords, knives, or other edged weapons, and the majority of them were either self-inflicted or the result of camp quarrels.

What revisionist historian did you get that from???

In the day of muzzle loading infantry weapons, on a charge, you can't stop to reload so after breaking through enemy lines it is mostly hand to hand combat. And if you don't have a bayonet, you darned well better have a big knife.
One of the reasons the large Bowies were popular for Confederate soldiers was that many used their personal firearms, which did not have a way to attach a bayonet. Many of the Bowies were homemade from farm implements like saws and scythes which is why the sizes and shapes were so varied.

The use of Bowies in lieu of bayonets is well documented going back to the Mexican War. The Mississippi Rifles, at the Battle of Buena Vista, famously held the line against the Mexicans using their Harpers Ferry M1841s (which lacked bayonet attachment) and their Bowie Knives. The M1841 is now known as the "Mississippi Rifle" largely due to that conflict.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

What revisionist historian did you get that from???

In the day of muzzle loading infantry weapons, on a charge, you can't stop to reload so after breaking through enemy lines it is mostly hand to hand combat. And if you don't have a bayonet, you darned well better have a big knife.
One of the reasons the large Bowies were popular for Confederate soldiers was that many used their personal firearms, which did not have a way to attach a bayonet. Many of the Bowies were homemade from farm implements like saws and scythes which is why the sizes and shapes were so varied.

The use of Bowies in lieu of bayonets is well documented going back to the Mexican War. The Mississippi Rifles, at the Battle of Buena Vista, famously held the line against the Mexicans using their Harpers Ferry M1841s (which lacked bayonet attachment) and their Bowie Knives. The M1841 is now known as the "Mississippi Rifle" largely due to that conflict.

You...you do realize that the Civil War saw the advent of repeating rifles, right? And that actual melee encounters were relatively rare? I welcome you to dig into the matter yourself, but perhaps this will serve as a good springboard.

 

[justjed]

How long until a knife becomes a short sword? 7.24 seconds after first contact with a TV reporter...

 

[Pteronarcyd]

That's just nuts!

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you the newest category of sword,

The Seattle Sword

Yes, WA knife laws are vague and nuts, and Seattle's knife ordinances are insane, and I will argue they violate natural law, thus the Constitution per the Declaration. I don't, however, want to be accused of misrepresenting Seattle's Municipal Code, which in actuality defines a sword as a fixed-blade knife:

Chapter 12A.14 - WEAPONS CONTROL

Section 12A.14.010 - Definitions

...

"Dangerous knife" means any fixed-blade knife and any other knife having a blade more than 3 1/2 inches in length.

...

"Fixed-blade knife" means any knife, regardless of blade length, with a blade which is permanently open and does not fold, retract, or slide into the handle of the knife, and includes any dagger, sword, bayonet, bolo knife, hatchet, axe, straight-edged razor, or razor blade not in a package, dispenser, or shaving appliance.

... .

Section 12A.14.080 - Unlawful use of weapons

It is unlawful for a person to:

...

B. Knowingly carry concealed or unconcealed on such person any dangerous knife, or carry concealed on such person any deadly weapon other than a firearm; or

...

D. Knowingly sell or give away to any person under 18 years of age any dangerous knife or deadly weapon other than a firearm, or for any person under 18 years of age to knowingly purchase any dangerous knife or deadly weapon other than a firearm, or for any person under 18 years of age to knowingly possess any dangerous knife or deadly weapon other than a firearm except when under the direct supervision of an adult.

... .

Therefore, Seattle defines a sword as a fixed-blade knife, and all fixed-blade knives, no matter how small, are deemed dangerous and may not be carried except under limited exceptions. In fact, Seattle treats fixed-blade knives as more dangerous than firearms. Craziness abounds on the Left Coast.

 

[DrHenley]

You...you do realize that the Civil War saw the advent of repeating rifles, right?

You mean like the Spencer, "That Damned Yankee Rifle"? Which wasn't available to the South. And did not see any major action before Gettysburg.

Or the Henry, which was too fragile for combat use.

But regardless, you convinced me. Nobody actually carried bayonets or knives in the Civil War, those we see in pictures were all just photographers' props.

 

[USMCPOP]

The huge bowies used in Civil War photos are often props provided by the photographer. It was common practice at the time for photographers to supply their subjects with prop weapons, or even outfits for the shoot.

Just like US Marine Corps boot camp graduation photos in the dress blue uniforms. They are a front of the jacket only, no back, just some Velcro straps or something. Takes about 2 minutes to dress and photograph.

 

[afishhunter]

"How long until a knife becomes a short sword?"

Probably two election cycles.

Some politician is going to argue how we don't need this BM 940 "Short Sword" anymore, and introduces a bill.

That's how long I give it, anyhoo.

I fear you may be optimistic on the time line. I don't think it will take that long.

 

[DocJD]

Yes, WA knife laws are vague and nuts, and Seattle's knife ordinances are insane, and I will argue they violate natural law, thus the Constitution per the Declaration. I don't, however, want to be accused of misrepresenting Seattle's Municipal Code, which in actuality defines a sword as a fixed-blade knife:

Chapter 12A.14 - WEAPONS CONTROL

Section 12A.14.010 - Definitions

...

"Dangerous knife" means any fixed-blade knife and any other knife having a blade more than 3 1/2 inches in length.

...

"Fixed-blade knife" means any knife, regardless of blade length, with a blade which is permanently open and does not fold, retract, or slide into the handle of the knife, and includes any dagger, sword, bayonet, bolo knife, hatchet, axe, straight-edged razor, or razor blade not in a package, dispenser, or shaving appliance.

... .

Section 12A.14.080 - Unlawful use of weapons

It is unlawful for a person to:

...

B. Knowingly carry concealed or unconcealed on such person any dangerous knife, or carry concealed on such person any deadly weapon other than a firearm; or

...

D. Knowingly sell or give away to any person under 18 years of age any dangerous knife or deadly weapon other than a firearm, or for any person under 18 years of age to knowingly purchase any dangerous knife or deadly weapon other than a firearm, or for any person under 18 years of age to knowingly possess any dangerous knife or deadly weapon other than a firearm except when under the direct supervision of an adult.

... .

Therefore, Seattle defines a sword as a fixed-blade knife, and all fixed-blade knives, no matter how small, are deemed dangerous and may not be carried except under limited exceptions. In fact, Seattle treats fixed-blade knives as more dangerous than firearms. Craziness abounds on the Left Coast.

This kind of rampant totalitarianistic madness is why I moved to the midwest , middle of nowhere , and plan to stay as long as I can !

 

[Pteronarcyd]

It's worth noting that of all the horrendous injuries and fatalities sustained by both sides in the Civil War, less than 2% of recorded cases were caused by swords, knives, or other edged weapons, and the majority of them were either self-inflicted or the result of camp quarrels.

Consider more recent stats: https://www.statista.com/statistics/195325/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-weapon-used/. In 2017, the FBI reports there were 15,129 murders in the US. Of these, 10,982 (72.6%) were committed with firearms, while 1,591 (10.5%) were committed with edged weapons.

Given the above data, one might be tempted to claim edged implements are nearly seven times safer than firearms, but that fails to account for relevant abundances. Various sources claim the number of firearms is roughly equal to the population; i.e., about 300,000,000. I've never seen an estimate of the number of edged tools, but it has to dwarf the number of guns. Thus, in 2017 it looks like more than 99.996% of guns were well behaved (at least with respect to murder). The good behavior rate for knives must be vastly higher.

 

[ChrisLee]

If you do a little research you will see why the gypsy carraca is so big. Gypsies where outlawed from carrying swords. Seems they like to duel a bit too much. So they basically made a folder that was essentially a short sword when unfolded. It could be wielded by two hands. There’s a whole fighting method developed using these oversized folders.

 

[ChrisLee]

That's just nuts!

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you the newest category of sword,

The Seattle Sword

Think about this logically. Basically 3.5 inches is at the cusp of what can be used to pierce a average sized person’s heart.