How many don't care for the looks of Damascus?

I like damascus and straight carbon steel blades. I sent a fancy gents folder with damascus blade, bolsters and pearl scales to Kim Breed of Blade Mag about 4 years ago for a performance evaluation. Well he was surprized but he put it to the test, by the way the folder was already sold. He cut lots of cardboard and rope, flexed the edge back and forth over a brass rod, no chipping, he never sharpened it and when I got it back it would still shave hair. Now I was surpized ;) The steel was 120 layer twist of 1095 and 15N20.
If you put the right steel in, use proper forging techniques and heat treat it properly, it will perform with the best carbon steels and look good to. There is good damascus and bad damascus out there. If I can find it, I'll let ya'll know which issue of Blade it was in.

Don Hanson lll
 
RogerP said:
As I recall, Kevin Cashen won an ABS cutting competition with a damascus blade.

Cheers,

Roger
I am on his list for a similar recurve Bowie blade. :) It was L6/O1 I think.

I do have a small damascus skinner for carry and whittling, by Craig Steketee.

Megalobyte, thanks for the parade of beautiful blades. The wolfstooth Sendero is a perfect example of the right damascus for a certain blade shape... the "teeth" really look good on the belly of the knife. The Mike Williams is also a real stunner. Wow.
 
Those knives are all ugly Ari. :barf: Since I only collect ugly knives, you better send them all over to me right away. :D Damascus sucks. :p E-mail me for my shipping address.

Roger

PS - Seriously though, it's more than okay to not like damascus - there's no law saying we all have to have he same tastes and preferences. If we did, life would be pretty boring. I'm pretty sure that damascus blades Ari showed from the likes of Fisk, Williams and Bradshaw will cut and very well. These guys take the performance of their blades very seriously indeed.
 
I do like Damascus and those pics posted by Megalobyte just floored me. But it all boils down to personal preference again. And personal preference changes, and possibly in waves and cycles. Give a man a bit of time to change his mind ... ;)

Don't forget the "other" major factor of cohesiveness in presentation. The quality of the package is NOT just the sum of its parts.

When I look at damascus, I do want only "working" damascus. I don't personally believe in making a knife from materials that dictate a "display-only" situation. My love of damascus is also partially from my appreciation of the work involved to create it. Frankly, to me, damascus screams Prestige, while on a working knife I'd prefer a nicely finished straight carbon steel blade +/- a hamon. Thats just me. Jason.
 
2knife said:
I don't like damascus. The more of it I see a maker do, the less I like his knives. I think it's something similar to "art at the sake of function" debates. Is any damascus better than the best non-damascus steels out there? From everything I've read, (which is not much) it is primarily done for visual effect. I don't find much appealing about that, for it's own sake.

I don't have a jewelers eye for knives, all the hype seems to be at the expense of quality. If this steel used truly made a better knife in the end, I would look at it differently.
David

2knife said:
Visually, there are some very beautiful patterns in damascus. If it made the knife a stronger better cutting instrument, I would like it more. I understand the appeal artistically and there is a creative element that I can respect. I just wish I heard more knifemakers who test and use it, develop it to the point that it actually rivals their non-damascus blades in performance.

I ask myself when I see a knife what the knifemaker has as a goal, whether it is artistic or functional. Can it be both, in the case of using damascus, I guess so. But, is there a trade-off in performance? If so, is it worth it for just the "effect" of it all?
David

It is not art at the sake of function. Damascus blades that are designed to be high performance will rival any of the better knife steels. This also means that damascus is not made as jewelry at the expense of quality. Yes, there are damascus blades that are more flash than function, but if you wanted one that can perform you would have no trouble finding one.

Many of the makers of damascus blades test them. Jerry fisk once told me that his damascus blades perform right up there with his regular steel bladed knives.

I don't think there is any trade of in performance, but there is definitely a premium that is paid for damask steel. Whether it is worth it is up to each individual.

Megalobyte said:
Weren't the origins of damascus that its multiple layers gave the blade more strength?

For the most part the reason for the pattern welded version of damask steel was because back then there was a shortage of high quality steel. High quality steel was forged together with steel of lower qualities so that a very respectable blade could be made. This was done to be able to better utilize the meager amount of high quality steel available to the smiths of the day.
 
Keith,
Thanks for the information. I did see one of the contestants at the Atlanta Blade Show Cutting competion using a damascus knife, was it Lairson? Also, I know Bill Burke is making beautiful damascus knives, and I know high-performance is a must with him also.
With me, maybe it's just personal preference. I'm a little more plain-jane with my taste. I love the perfect blend of natural elements, with not too much embellishment or fancy patterns. Aesthetics are to each individual, different.
David
 
2knife said:
Keith,
Thanks for the information. I did see one of the contestants at the Atlanta Blade Show Cutting competion using a damascus knife, was it Lairson? Also, I know Bill Burke is making beautiful damascus knives, and I know high-performance is a must with him also.
With me, maybe it's just personal preference. I'm a little more plain-jane with my taste. I love the perfect blend of natural elements, with not too much embellishment or fancy patterns. Aesthetics are to each individual, different.
David

Yes, Jerry Lairson used a nice damascus bladed camp knife at this year's Blade show cutting contest. It was a very, very nice knife.
 
I must admit that I usually don't like damascus. I think the only type that consistenly appeals to my eye is Wootz. Other than that, it's mostly a case by case thing, with my not being wowed by damascus about 95% of the time. I've often come across damascus knives that I would have bought if only the blade was plain carbon.
 
The first Spirit of Steel cutting contest was won with a damascus blade of 52100 and 15N20. :)
I agree that the mix and maker is what will cause the blade to perform. Kevin and Jerry both do an excellent job of making damascus blades. I prefer to make the simpler patterns and hopefully, one day I will have learned a few more patterns.
 
I think Damascus is ugly and ruins the value of a knife. It's superfluous and pretentious to choose it.
Now that that's settled,
I might be willing to take some of these dogs off your hands for a small fee. :D

Kidding aside, Any future custom Bowies for me would be only Damascus.
I just like the looks and the story about how it's made.
I don't use my customs and are for display and I prefer that look on a big knife.

But, there are some beautiful non-Damascus knives out there that are every bit as nice looking as Damascus knives.
 
Damascus can be very artistic and impressive, but coming from a background of studying nihonto (antique and traditionally forged Japanese swords) it usually appears extremely garish and overdone to me - especially after it's been aggressively etched. Japanese swords are folded (resulting in a fine layer pattern) and the resulting hada (grain) can take on any variety of patterns and characteristics, but in general it is far, FAR subtler than damascus. Often, to see some of the finest hada requires very careful lighting and a keen eye. By comparison, damascus (or more correctly pattern-welding) usually looks extremely "rough" and loose to me.

To address the idea of "layers" giving "strength" (feel free to skip the next few paragraphs if you want):

First off, let's distinguish between "true" damascus (i.e. "wootz" or crucible steel) and pattern-welding. Wootz was a fairly unique method of forging that resulted in a very heterogenous mixture of hardnesses/crystalline microstructures - which showed up as a fine watery pattern. If you see fine antique Middle Eastern shamshir, the effect can be very beautiful. This ingenious forging method, however, was born out of necessity since it was difficult with the materials and processes available to forge a full-length sword blade. The resulting blade will be quite nice and perform well, but a mix of such characteristics does not lend the blade the "best of all worlds" - it just serves as a compromise and makes for a blade with a variety of characteristics due to its uneven composition.

Now, modern "damascus" as it is usually applied to western custom knives is actually not wootz at all but deliberate pattern-welding. Pattern welding (as I'm sure most of you know) is the forging of contrasting steels together and folding/twisting them to create a deliberate pattern - which is subsequently enhanced (usually) through an etching process. The technique actually dates from "Viking"-era sword forging techniques - steelcraft at the time was capable of creating cables of steel, which were then joined together and twisted to create a full-sized billet suitable for sword construction. However, this again was a compromise feature, an ingenious method of overcoming a significant technological hurdle. The layering does not actually improve functionality - in fact, introducing so many welds into the equation merely increases the risk of forging a faulty blade.

Modern damascus is usually composed of steels chosen for their contrast - O1 and L6, for example. Since these modern steels are quite strong, and since modern tech allows a far greater degree of control over welding and forging, it is unlikely that a "damascus" blade will perform worse than any other finely heat treated handmade blade. But it does not gain any mystical functionality from being layered.

Possibly the greatest reason for folding and layering to be so revered and idolized is due to misconceptions regarding Japanese blades. Folding in nihonto was done to break up and diffuse the steel billet and its many impurities and uneven carbon content. It also served as an indirect control over the percentage of carbon content. In effect, it took primitive steel smelted out of iron sand and worked to homogenize it as much as possible. But a good modern steel, while lacking the beauty and character of a blade made from tamahagane (traditional Japanese steel), will usually outperform tamahagane all other things being considered equal (edge geometry, differential heat treatment, etc) - after all, it's *already* perfectly clean and homogenous, with no impurities. Folding such a steel will result in a beautiful pattern but will not improve the actual functionality. By the way, more layers does NOT equal a better blade! A Japanese blade was folded 7-15 times, resulting in anything from ~128 to ~32,000 layers (each fold doubles the layers). Folding the billet reduces carbon content and breaks up impurities/uneven carbon - by 32,000 layers the blade is pretty damn homogenous and has been for quite a number of folds already. Any more, and the carbon level gets ridiculously low (the billet itself begins losing a significant amount of mass) - way too soft and not enough steel for a sword. I'm not going to even begin to address lamination patterns (san mai, kobuse, etc.), which are a whole 'nother can of worms...

When one becomes accustomed to viewing the hada of blades such as a $200,000 masterpiece of artwork in steel by Nagasone Kotetsu, or a tanto by Rai Kunitoshi, and views the astounding and subtle hada that appears like a natural woodgrain that changes with the light and recedes into and back out of the steel, with patches of sparkling martensitic crystals and black shiny lines of activity and other metallurgical effects, the incredibly bold patterning of "damascus" in the modern knife world appears somewhat overdone and flat.

Not trying to start a war or anything, just explaining my own views. I have seen damascus pattern knives that I considered extremely beautiful, and of course the technique is one that requires intense focus and great skill. Heck, someone mentioned Kevin Cashen? I love his work even though he works outside of the field I study and enjoy principally. But there are reasons why one would actually not enjoy the type of damascus patterning seen on so many knives - it's to the point where I generally prefer a partially blued blade or a good ol' plain steel to many pattern-welded blades.

Er... so... yeah, you can send that Bowie over if you've been convinced that damascus ain't all that. ;-) :D
 
I've never been a fan of damascus blades, but recently got to handle a damascus Sebenza that knocked my socks off. That made me decide to take the plunge and get something nice in damascus. The result is a damascus TNT which I hope to receive soon. Danbo, how about posting a picture here of that beautiful knife?
 
gabedamien said:
Damascus can be very artistic and impressive, but coming from a background of studying nihonto (antique and traditionally forged Japanese swords) it usually appears extremely garish and overdone to me - especially after it's been aggressively etched. Japanese swords are folded (resulting in a fine layer pattern) and the resulting hada (grain) can take on any variety of patterns and characteristics, but in general it is far, FAR subtler than damascus. Often, to see some of the finest hada requires very careful lighting and a keen eye. By comparison, damascus (or more correctly pattern-welding) usually looks extremely "rough" and loose to me.

To address the idea of "layers" giving "strength" (feel free to skip the next few paragraphs if you want):

First off, let's distinguish between "true" damascus (i.e. "wootz" or crucible steel) and pattern-welding. Wootz was a fairly unique method of forging that resulted in a very heterogenous mixture of hardnesses/crystalline microstructures - which showed up as a fine watery pattern. If you see fine antique Middle Eastern shamshir, the effect can be very beautiful. This ingenious forging method, however, was born out of necessity since it was difficult with the materials and processes available to forge a full-length sword blade. The resulting blade will be quite nice and perform well, but a mix of such characteristics does not lend the blade the "best of all worlds" - it just serves as a compromise and makes for a blade with a variety of characteristics due to its uneven composition.

Now, modern "damascus" as it is usually applied to western custom knives is actually not wootz at all but deliberate pattern-welding. Pattern welding (as I'm sure most of you know) is the forging of contrasting steels together and folding/twisting them to create a deliberate pattern - which is subsequently enhanced (usually) through an etching process. The technique actually dates from "Viking"-era sword forging techniques - steelcraft at the time was capable of creating cables of steel, which were then joined together and twisted to create a full-sized billet suitable for sword construction. However, this again was a compromise feature, an ingenious method of overcoming a significant technological hurdle. The layering does not actually improve functionality - in fact, introducing so many welds into the equation merely increases the risk of forging a faulty blade.

Modern damascus is usually composed of steels chosen for their contrast - O1 and L6, for example. Since these modern steels are quite strong, and since modern tech allows a far greater degree of control over welding and forging, it is unlikely that a "damascus" blade will perform worse than any other finely heat treated handmade blade. But it does not gain any mystical functionality from being layered.

Possibly the greatest reason for folding and layering to be so revered and idolized is due to misconceptions regarding Japanese blades. Folding in nihonto was done to break up and diffuse the steel billet and its many impurities and uneven carbon content. It also served as an indirect control over the percentage of carbon content. In effect, it took primitive steel smelted out of iron sand and worked to homogenize it as much as possible. But a good modern steel, while lacking the beauty and character of a blade made from tamahagane (traditional Japanese steel), will usually outperform tamahagane all other things being considered equal (edge geometry, differential heat treatment, etc) - after all, it's *already* perfectly clean and homogenous, with no impurities. Folding such a steel will result in a beautiful pattern but will not improve the actual functionality. By the way, more layers does NOT equal a better blade! A Japanese blade was folded 7-15 times, resulting in anything from ~128 to ~32,000 layers (each fold doubles the layers). Folding the billet reduces carbon content and breaks up impurities/uneven carbon - by 32,000 layers the blade is pretty damn homogenous and has been for quite a number of folds already. Any more, and the carbon level gets ridiculously low (the billet itself begins losing a significant amount of mass) - way too soft and not enough steel for a sword. I'm not going to even begin to address lamination patterns (san mai, kobuse, etc.), which are a whole 'nother can of worms...

When one becomes accustomed to viewing the hada of blades such as a $200,000 masterpiece of artwork in steel by Nagasone Kotetsu, or a tanto by Rai Kunitoshi, and views the astounding and subtle hada that appears like a natural woodgrain that changes with the light and recedes into and back out of the steel, with patches of sparkling martensitic crystals and black shiny lines of activity and other metallurgical effects, the incredibly bold patterning of "damascus" in the modern knife world appears somewhat overdone and flat.

Not trying to start a war or anything, just explaining my own views. I have seen damascus pattern knives that I considered extremely beautiful, and of course the technique is one that requires intense focus and great skill. Heck, someone mentioned Kevin Cashen? I love his work even though he works outside of the field I study and enjoy principally. But there are reasons why one would actually not enjoy the type of damascus patterning seen on so many knives - it's to the point where I generally prefer a partially blued blade or a good ol' plain steel to many pattern-welded blades.

Er... so... yeah, you can send that Bowie over if you've been convinced that damascus ain't all that. ;-) :D


Yeah, but damascus is still shiny and cool... :)
 
gabedamien said:
Damascus can be very artistic and impressive.....

LOTS OF WELL-THOUGHT-OUT INFORMATION AND OBSERVATIONS.

......pattern-welded blades.
Thanks Gabe. I am such a rookie that I get frustrated with the mystery and hoopla about hamons, nihonto, damascus, and wootz. Nice reality check, and this makes me appreciate some of these aspects that much more. That was a lot of good writing!

Coop
 
Hey Guys,
the REAL answer might be that there's a lot of fake damascus out there, as in acid etched, etc. If your friends have been watching the home shopping network, they probably think that your damascus is either acid or ink. I've had that problem before myself.
(same thing with fake hamons)
 
Don't forget about Devin Thomas' damascus, his stuff is very appealing to me, and performs well.
 

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megalobyte,

thanks for the pictures! i love that dunn knife! one question: i am not sure but it seems that on the bradshaw bowie blade the layers are not welded together properly. are there some kind of gaps between the layers? i own a knife made by a famous knifemaker and there is one single gap of about half an inch on the blade and it always bothers me when i look at it. it appeared after i cleaned the blade with a towel and a bit of oil. i think these gaps shouldn't develop during the welding process. or am i wrong?

thanks!
brightred

(sorry for my english)
 
Hi BR, nothing wrong with your english by the way. :)

If I understand what you are referring to, it is not a flaw, in multi-bar blades, the bars are welded together, but it is part of the artistry and up to the maker if he wants the patterns within each bar to match up perfectly from one bar to the next, some makers do it so it is almost invisible, others want the multi-bar effect, and thus they intentionally make the patterns not line up quite perfectly. I think this is what youre asking about, also, I can tell you that in person, though in the closeup picture, it looks like you can easily tell where each bar meets the next, they are joined very nicely and you can't feel a seam with your fingernail, it is flush and smooth where they meet and hard to notice without a magnified close-up.

Was this what you were asking about, if not, please LMK and I'll try again. :)
 
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