How much does "toughness" matter?

Elmax toughness is not bad, BTW, compared to other modern hard stainless steels (much better than s30v or s35vn, for instance).

Do yourself a favor, take a hard stainless knife (> 60 HRC), make it chip (cut a wire or similar). Then fix the chip with your sharpening stone/equipment. You'll learn quickly why toughness is important ....
 
000Robert said:
Toughness is the most important quality in a knife to me as far as self-defense and survival are concerned, especially in my fixed blades. If I'm trying to stab a scumbag and I miss and stab concrete, I want the concrete to scream in agony, not my knife.
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Well, you know, all this is really overthinking what the question is, but the question doesn't matter as much because the answer is always Delta 3V!
 
madcap_magician said:
Well, you know, all this is really overthinking what the question is, but the question doesn't matter as much because the answer is always Delta 3V!
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I have reasons to believe that Delta 3V samples on Nerd tests would show lower results than regular 3V. Both toughness and CATRA. But to be sure there is only one way to find out.
 
Zip ties are notorious for chipping knives. I never had any trouble cutting zip ties with AUS-8 on a SOG Flash II, but when the manufacturer switched to D2, I did get a chip. Small sample size, YMMV, etc.

Yes, there are special tools for cutting zip ties. I don't have one. Maybe I should get one. Side cut pliers can't always get underneath a tight zip tie.
 
Another Shepherd said:
Zip ties are notorious for chipping knives. I never had any trouble cutting zip ties with AUS-8 on a SOG Flash II, but when the manufacturer switched to D2, I did get a chip. Small sample size, YMMV, etc.

Yes, there are special tools for cutting zip ties. I don't have one. Maybe I should get one. Side cut pliers can't always get underneath a tight zip tie.
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I'm prying and cutting those with a M398 edc. Doesn't chip. So I wonder how did they heat treat the D2 blade!
 
tinfoil hat timmy said:
what are your reasons?
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Toughness difference between high vs low temp temper and the difference in carbides. 3V toughness dives over 60HRC. At 62 it's close to D2. Sweet spot is 58HRC with high temp temper. Low temp strengthens the matrix and compression strength rises so smashing tests look very good. There is a difference between toughness and impact toughness. Probability that general toughness is better with Delta is high because of the matrix, but stronger the matrix leads to easier cracking at crack propagation sites, which are primary carbides that Delta is seemingly in favor of. So impact toughness is probably lower. One way to find out. :)
 
ferider said:
Elmax toughness is not bad, BTW, compared to other modern hard stainless steels (much better than s30v or s35vn, for instance).

Do yourself a favor, take a hard stainless knife (> 60 HRC), make it chip (cut a wire or similar). Then fix the chip with your sharpening stone/equipment. You'll learn quickly why toughness is important ....
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According to the charpy toughness tests I've been looking at elmax is about equal to S30V, S45VN. And S35VN/SPY27 is slightly better than those three.
 
JoeBusic said:
I'm prying and cutting those with a M398 edc. Doesn't chip. So I wonder how did they heat treat the D2 blade!
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Interesting. I don't have any M398.

The two knives I referred to were from SOG but they were made almost 10 years apart, so the heat treat and other things could have been different.

I switched to a Buck knife with 420HC--no more chipping.

More recently, we hired a kid to take down some structures with lots of zip ties. I loaned him a $12 no-name Chinese knife with a blade labeled "440". No problems. He liked the knife so much I gave it to him.
 
Alone said:
*I have no dog in the fight. "Toughness" is everything to me (*as I use quite a few large fixies), and I try to stick to 1095, 1095 Cro-Van, 5160, 8670, INFI, 3V, and (*most recently) "Delta" 3V. ALL have proven up to the task.
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You mention 1095 and that's part of what got me on this question. There are several semi stainless and stainless steels that have equal or higher toughness ratings, equal or better edge retention ratings, and are rust resistant.

Specifically, the Mora Garberg is offered in 1095 (or equivalent) and 14C28N stainless. So why would I buy the 1095 version?

Also, people talk about how tough 1095 is, that it's perfectly suitable for "hard use". Steels like S35VN, SPY28, and CPM-154 are measured at a similar toughness. So I'm wondering if this is the "minimum" amount of toughness that's "needed", generally speaking, and anything higher is getting into overkill.

So when picking the best knife for me, I'm probably going to be looking at the "minimum" toughness and then the try to figure out the best "minimum" of the other attributes to get the best balance.

When I say "minimum", I mean the smallest amount where I wouldn't notice any difference in use compared something else.
 
Another Shepherd said:
Interesting. I don't have any M398.

The two knives I referred to were from SOG but they were made almost 10 years apart, so the heat treat and other things could have been different.

I switched to a Buck knife with 420HC--no more chipping.

More recently, we hired a kid to take down some structures with lots of zip ties. I loaned him a $12 no-name Chinese knife with a blade labeled "440". No problems. He liked the knife so much I gave it to him.
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I'm making throwing knives in 420HC. Endures everything :)
 
Rooster81 said:
You mention 1095 and that's part of what got me on this question. There are several semi stainless and stainless steels that have equal or higher toughness ratings, equal or better edge retention ratings, and are rust resistant.

Specifically, the Mora Garberg is offered in 1095 (or equivalent) and 14C28N stainless. So why would I buy the 1095 version?

Also, people talk about how tough 1095 is, that it's perfectly suitable for "hard use". Steels like S35VN, SPY28, and CPM-154 are measured at a similar toughness. So I'm wondering if this is the "minimum" amount of toughness that's "needed", generally speaking, and anything higher is getting into overkill.

So when picking the best knife for me, I'm probably going to be looking at the "minimum" toughness and then the try to figure out the best "minimum" of the other attributes to get the best balance.

When I say "minimum", I mean the smallest amount where I wouldn't notice any difference in use compared something else.
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One thing of great matter is thickness. HC steel knives usually comes thick. Strength rises exponentially with thickness. And the sharpening angle is high. That's why Nerd site is like a Bible to me. If more strength is needed, just make it thicker. I'm just about to forge weld 14C28N onto M398 to get it thicker. Going for 6mm (1/4"). It will pry anything just as any HC steel.
 
Rooster81 said:
You mention 1095 and that's part of what got me on this question. There are several semi stainless and stainless steels that have equal or higher toughness ratings, equal or better edge retention ratings, and are rust resistant.

Specifically, the Mora Garberg is offered in 1095 (or equivalent) and 14C28N stainless. So why would I buy the 1095 version?

Also, people talk about how tough 1095 is, that it's perfectly suitable for "hard use". Steels like S35VN, SPY28, and CPM-154 are measured at a similar toughness. So I'm wondering if this is the "minimum" amount of toughness that's "needed", generally speaking, and anything higher is getting into overkill.

So when picking the best knife for me, I'm probably going to be looking at the "minimum" toughness and then the try to figure out the best "minimum" of the other attributes to get the best balance.

When I say "minimum", I mean the smallest amount where I wouldn't notice any difference in use compared something else.
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Man, I "get" it...completely. And, I take no exception to your search, and wish you the best with it.


Here's my thing...

1) I'm an old guy *(51yo) and guilty of the "stainless" bigotry.

2) I'm a "pragmatic" guy and have absolutely beaten the sh*t out of every steel I mentioned, and...

3) I still think a 1911 is the BEST handgun on the planet.


Forgive me. As I posted, I'm a dinosaur.

Again, good luck with your search for a "tough" stainless steel. I'm absolutely positive that it (*they) exists, but (*on my end) it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks.


Happy huntin'!
 
Like most things in life, I like a balance on the toughness vs edge retention scale. I like CTS XHP and S35VN. Heck, I still carry more Spyderco VG10 than anything else. Good enough for me.

As a MI resident, corrosion resistance isn't a big deal to me. I freehand sharpen, own diamond plates, and can get a respectable edge on any steel I own so "ease of sharpening" is the least important factor.

That is beauty about knives and steel, you need to find what works for you and your cutting habits. Just because Bob owns X knife with X steel doesn't mean it will be ideal for you.
 
Rooster81 said:
Specifically, the Mora Garberg is offered in 1095 (or equivalent) and 14C28N stainless. So why would I buy the 1095 version?

Also, people talk about how tough 1095 is, that it's perfectly suitable for "hard use". Steels like S35VN, SPY28, and CPM-154 are measured at a similar toughness. So I'm wondering if this is the "minimum" amount of toughness that's "needed", generally speaking, and anything higher is getting into overkill.
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ESEE offers knives in 1095 and S35VN. They have a Youtube video showing that their S35VN blades can break, but 1095 doesn't. I vaguely recall they were batoning a log or some such thing; I might be wrong.

My two ESEEs are S35VN. I like stainless. I will be astounded if I ever break either knife, or if I ever need to baton a log.

The DBK boys have shown a couple times that they can baton with a Benchmade Bugout in S30V or M390.
 
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