How Much Land Per-person for Subsistance Farming?

Well, that looks fine and dandy, but not all places allow that in their covenants or zoning laws. Also, if you think those meals are going to go far with grown men working their butts off doing real labor guess again! I doubt the calories in that week's worth of meals is sustainable energy for someone doing hard labor. For inexperienced gardeners/farmer wannabes (TSC) growing plants in that density usually leads to disease and lots of rot and massive bug infestation. Not for the less than over educated plant lovers IMO/E. Go ahead try it there's yer challenge! Not saying those folks are'nt doing it well; just that the average Joe is'nt going to be too pleased when he decides to get out of his lazyboy and have a go at it.

Another thing, for as long as I can remember we've had cows calve out in late Winter so as to be able to take advantage of Spring grass as free feed.
 
This is a great thread and already has a number of smart, informative replies. I don't know how smart and informative I can be but let me throw in a few comments from the age of 75 and a lifetime of farming, hunting, and fishing all over the world.

For starters, there are just FIVE crops that feed the entire world! No kidding. They are wheat, rice, potatos, beans, and corn. Those five plants and their modern hybrids and deviritives are all high in caloric density, relatively easy to store for fairly long periods of time, and humans in some parts of the world subsist almost entirely on just two of them. One of the 'magic' pairs that comes to mind is beans and corn. Beans have lots of protein, however, we can't assimilate much of it unless the enzymes from corn are combined with the beans---as healthy Mexican peasants have done for centuries. Another healthy pair is rice combined with very small quantities of meat or fish and millions of Asians have lived for eons eating little else. BTW, China is NOT and never has been a major rice producing nation. The principal food crop in China is wheat and guess where noodles and pasta came from?

I spent my childhood through 1950 on a dirt poor farm in the hills of western Arkansas. There were several years when the ONLY things we bought at the grocery store in town were coffee and salt. Everything else we ate came off the land. Yeah, we worked hard but, kid you not, we ate like kings! Fresh milk, eggs, produce, fish from the creeks, animals from the trap lines, our own pork, beef, and poultry, and some hunting (when we could afford a box of 22 shorts, 25 cents per 50 round box in those days). Added to that was the 'truck' crops we raised plus all the other neat things foraged from the bordering Quachita National Forest---wild grapes, blackberries, persimmons, nuts, polk salad, on and on. We even made our own wine and grew and dried our own tobacco.

Later in life, I never lost my love of gardening. I've experimented with several methods of 'small plot' gardening, the French Intensive method, raised beds, and now 'Earth Boxes' (Google them). Presently, I garden solely with an array of Earth Boxes in my front yard. Each box takes about one gallon of water per day. Also no weeds and few bugs. The plastic covers over the boxes retain the water and prevent weeds and burrowing insects. If you're mechanically inclined or a DIYer, there's some good articles on the Web for making your own. Anyway, with minimal effort, I raise more than I can consume. I also take three or four boxes in the house in the fall and place them on my enclosed back veranda facing due south, then enjoy fresh tomatos, green beans, okra, and herbs all winter. Point is, a subsistence farmer could, I believe, easily raise the veggies with something like Earth Boxes in a very small area and use other available land for animal forage and woodlot.

I'll also mention there are a host of designs on the Web for producing your own methane gas from animal and plant waste 'digesters' to help with the fuel problem. As far as seeds go, if you're preparing for a possible long term survival situation, it's cheap to stock up on seeds especially with quantity buys. How long will seeds keep? Ha! They found seeds in the pyramids over 5,000 years old that were still fertile. Oh, almost forgot, don't forget honey bees along with goats, etc. Nice to have some high calorie sweet stuff also and the bees basically feed themselves.
 
This is a great thread and already has a number of smart, informative replies. I don't know how smart and informative I can be but let me throw in a few comments from the age of 75 and a lifetime of farming, hunting, and fishing all over the world.

For starters, there are just FIVE crops that feed the entire world! No kidding. They are wheat, rice, potatos, beans, and corn. Those five plants and their modern hybrids and deviritives are all high in caloric density, relatively easy to store for fairly long periods of time, and humans in some parts of the world subsist almost entirely on just two of them. One of the 'magic' pairs that comes to mind is beans and corn. Beans have lots of protein, however, we can't assimilate much of it unless the enzymes from corn are combined with the beans---as healthy Mexican peasants have done for centuries. Another healthy pair is rice combined with very small quantities of meat or fish and millions of Asians have lived for eons eating little else. BTW, China is NOT and never has been a major rice producing nation. The principal food crop in China is wheat and guess where noodles and pasta came from?

I spent my childhood through 1950 on a dirt poor farm in the hills of western Arkansas. There were several years when the ONLY things we bought at the grocery store in town were coffee and salt. Everything else we ate came off the land. Yeah, we worked hard but, kid you not, we ate like kings! Fresh milk, eggs, produce, fish from the creeks, animals from the trap lines, our own pork, beef, and poultry, and some hunting (when we could afford a box of 22 shorts, 25 cents per 50 round box in those days). Added to that was the 'truck' crops we raised plus all the other neat things foraged from the bordering Quachita National Forest---wild grapes, blackberries, persimmons, nuts, polk salad, on and on. We even made our own wine and grew and dried our own tobacco.

Later in life, I never lost my love of gardening. I've experimented with several methods of 'small plot' gardening, the French Intensive method, raised beds, and now 'Earth Boxes' (Google them). Presently, I garden solely with an array of Earth Boxes in my front yard. Each box takes about one gallon of water per day. Also no weeds and few bugs. The plastic covers over the boxes retain the water and prevent weeds and burrowing insects. If you're mechanically inclined or a DIYer, there's some good articles on the Web for making your own. Anyway, with minimal effort, I raise more than I can consume. I also take three or four boxes in the house in the fall and place them on my enclosed back veranda facing due south, then enjoy fresh tomatos, green beans, okra, and herbs all winter. Point is, a subsistence farmer could, I believe, easily raise the veggies with something like Earth Boxes in a very small area and use other available land for animal forage and woodlot.

I'll also mention there are a host of designs on the Web for producing your own methane gas from animal and plant waste 'digesters' to help with the fuel problem. As far as seeds go, if you're preparing for a possible long term survival situation, it's cheap to stock up on seeds especially with quantity buys. How long will seeds keep? Ha! They found seeds in the pyramids over 5,000 years old that were still fertile. Oh, almost forgot, don't forget honey bees along with goats, etc. Nice to have some high calorie sweet stuff also and the bees basically feed themselves.


Hi,

Yeah people don't realize that we pretty much live on just 5 different crops. And out of the 5, we mostly just live on 3 of them. Corn, wheat, and rice.

I've never tried any of the intensive gardening methods. And the few I've looked at seemed to require some high in-put levels. But I might need to recheck the methods. On the other hand, I do have 160 acres of farmland.

dalee
 
Great stuff folks! The first thing to answer is what do you mean by "self-sustainable"? The second is what's your potential? (Soil, water, growing season, workforce, etc.)

When my wife and I visited Romania about ten years ago, I was amazed at what many of the "peasants" were able to do with an acre or two and came home and started trying some of it myself. We're nowhere near self-sufficient on our 1.5 acres, but the only meat we buy is pork and occasionally ground beef for hamburgers. We raise chickens, turkeys and ducks, hunt deer, squirrel, duck, and turkey and have about .5 acre of vegetable garden which provides about $5,000/year in income from selling to the local yuppies as well as all of our summer veggies and about 75% of our winter veggies. All this for a family of seven!

I have tried a variety of "intensive" gardening methods over the last 15 years and NONE have resulted in increased disease or problems because the foundation of all of these methods is soil management. Healthy soil = healthy plants. It's extremely difficult to transfer commercial methodologies to small-scale or the inverse. Why do you think commercial "organic" foods cost so much? Right now, we're doing a raised-bed format only because we're bordering on production rather than sustenance.

Get heirloom, old-world NON-hybrid seeds and as long as you only grow one variety of each plant, you can save your own seeds every year. Since I grow (and sell!) about fifteen different tomato varieties, I buy seeds every year...

Do some research on the folks who initially settled your region. How did they survive? Lots of hunting/gathering in addition to their small farmsteads, I'd imagine.

J-
 
If you are truly interested in this and consider it reasonable option for you, I would suggest you buy some land (around 20 acres) that has a mix of woods and fields and year around water. You should be able to easily raise 4-5 cows, plant a large garden or "patch" as we referred to it when I was a kid. The garden contains things like carrots, lettuce, maybe some speciality items, green beans, peas etc. The patch is where you raise row after row of sweet corn, potatoes, strawberries, maybe a 100 tomato plants, rows of green beans, cabbage, etc. The patch is essentially what many truck farmers have where they grow for re-sale. With a large patch, you certainly will raise more than you can use depending on the number of people involved, but also sell or trade for things you don't provide for yourself. A good supply of safely stored seed would be important (very important).

With a bit more acreage, you could easily grow wheat and corn for food for both cattle and human consumption. You think corn flakes comes from sweet corn? A tractor would certainly be handy along with a way to obtain fuel. You're good until the tires wear out and so forth. No man is an island. Get used to it. We need each other to survive.
 
Check out this web site on urban homesteading.
http://urbanhomestead.org/journal/
Wow! That's pretty impressive. I did a fair sized vegetable garden using the same "square foot gardening techniques" for several years running, and they did produce quite a bit of food per square foot. I do agree with 1tracker that the meals listed do not sound sufficient for people involved in the sort of daily manual labor that true self-sufficent homesteading would require.

Gardens are great ideas, but most things are hybrids now and seed production is questionable. Where do you plan on getting your seed to plant these gardens year after year.
Try googling "heirloom seeds". Most of the seeds for sale at the local garden center may be hybrids, but non-hybrids are available and not that hard to find through specialty vendors and seed exchanges.
 
Yes, or do like I did today and take a trip to your local ag university and buy some heirloom plants and seeds to get a leg up on the season. Ok, not everyone has access to a World Class Agricultural University like Rutgers University here in NJ; but there are Ag colleges and universities scattered across the Country. I used to live near Las Cruces, NM and there is a great Ag program at the University of NM on the SE side of town out towards El Paso, TX. I used to get all my seeds and stock of peppers from them.

www.rutgersgardens.rutgers.edu ...Oh, and they have QUITE the place, seems this place was built by the old CCA during the Last Depression. It overlooks a river and there is a beautifully constructed large log cabin on the property. Would make an excellent bugout place IMO, time to go start reconning, ahem, I mean, volunteering over there to get the lay of the land.
 
I'd have to say that the previous posts all fit with my experience growing up on a mixed farm. What I will add though, is that with controlled grazing as opposed to free-ranging, pastures are much more productive, and can support more animals, although it is much more labor intensive.

I think the biggest factor would be location, farther north of the equator, and a larger space is needed, closer to the equator or ocean, less. It would also play a part in how much was available to hunt/ gather, as some places are very rich, while even the "fertile" places of southern alberta and saskachewan leave much to be desired. not that there is nothing there, but it is much harsher than the lake/forest areas.

Water would seem to be king, deep wells that can withstand drought, and the like. I've seen swamps half a mile wide, with not a drop for a cow to drink.
 
I do agree with 1tracker that the meals listed do not sound sufficient for people involved in the sort of daily manual labor that true self-sufficent homesteading would require.

I agree a big boy like me would require more food and I am a true believer in PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals.) I would be snaring the deer that run along the creek behind my house if the Apocalypse comes. However I don't believe you need 50 acres of farmland to sustain a family of four. I think it could easily be done in a single acre if well managed.

I would like to see that zoning ordnance that says you can't grow a garden. There may be something about how tall bushes in the front of the house can be so that is where you grow the potatoes and carrots. :D And really what city in their right mind would want the publicity of some guy on tv saying "we are just trying to feed our family in these trying times but the city is mowing down our crops and fining us."
 
Easy, go out West and read some of the homeowner association 'covenants' concerning 'care of your 'common property'. Zoning ordinances in many places prohibit such front yards in residential areas, because rats and other vermin move in and use the area as housing and breeding areas.

No one says that you need 50 acres to feed a family of 4, but if you intend to raise a sufficient number of animals and have a woodlot to sell excess, then don't count on 5 or 10 acres to do it.
 
John Seymour's book on self-sufficiency is the standard reference on this subject over here.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/New-Complete-Book-Self-Sufficiency-Realists/dp/0751364428

I read it a few years ago. He describes several scenarios in it but for full self-sufficiency he suggests about 5 acres for a family. This would include a Jersey cow, which is smaller and eats a lot less than most large, modern breeds. For traction/power, he assumes a small, old-fashioned tractor like the Ferguson TE20 which will run all day on very little diesel.

In the Egyptian delta, where the soil and climate allow up to 3 crops of rice a year, families live off an acre or less but I don't envy their lifestyle.

Andy
 
There are a lot of variables that control what you need. Where I grew up in upstate NY, water was plentiful, big gardens were easy (my family had a big one, with a wide variety of vegetables) and it was also easy to grow a woodlot.

Now I live in the San Joaquin Valley where it will be over 100 degrees for a month at a time, with low humidity and only 10" rain per year (and all of that during the winter). For me, water would be the biggest issue. Grazing for livestock would require huge acreage; by late April or early May the grass around here stops growing, and will not start growing again until mid-winter (unless you irrigate, once again bringing water into the equation). And it would be very difficult to have a productive woodlot, especially with woodcutting restrictions in the Sierras.

On the other hand, the climate here does give me things I couldn't have had in NY. I can grow a wide variety of fruit trees to yield fruit year round - peach, plum, nectarine, cherry, apricot, etc during spring and summer, and citrus for winter. I have a number of fruit trees (stone fruit, citrus, fig) in my yard, and we eat a lot of the fruit, and make jam, too. And some vegetables that normally are annuals will survive winters here. I had some swiss chard plants live for about five years before I took them out, and they produced year round. I'm about to plant some more.
 
"Soy milk is essentially Coffee-Mate laced with estrogen, and is best left to vegans and other socialist vegetarian types that can't bring themselves to eat the completely natural-for-humans flesh of our friends the Animals but who have no trouble with slaughtering trillions of our other friends the Plants and processing -- in gigantic factories run by multinational corporations with shareholders that eat meat themselves -- very selectively chosen components of their poor little bodies into gooey shit that humans have never had an opportunity to adapt to digesting. Why, eating such material, with its high levels of isoflavones, touted by gynecologists as tantamount to Estrogen Replacement Therapy (ERT), will make you grow boobs, and this will screw up the clean lines of this fine young man's Under Armor. I recommend against it."

- Mark Rippetoe

I disagree. I love soy milk, and I also raise Saanen goats, drink their milk and make cheese, yogurt and kefir. I eat goat meat and raise and slaughter my own poultry.

THAT SAID despite my enjoyment of raising livestock, it is really an inefficiant use of your resources for the protein you get out of it.

IMO if you were aiming at self sufficiency you'd be better off growing as many vegetable sources of protein yourself and maybe for meat count on shooting wild game.

If you are going to raise livestock probably chickens and pigs make the most sense.

On the other hand for me I have to say despite having to buy feed for them the goats have really restored the fertility of the soil on my place because I raise them intensively and put all the manure on the gardens.

When I moved here the soil was like ROCK. All Clay. 22 years later and many tons of goat manure the soil is mega humus and loose.:thumbup:
 
PS a good book on being self sufficient is LIVING THE GOOD LIFE, by Helen and Scott Nearing.

Nearing was a Socialist who was blacklsted and he and his wife essentially had to go back to the land because nobody would hire him.

They built 2 stone houses by hand and probably came as close to anyone as being self sufficient.

They were both vegetarians and one of their ideas I thought interesting was that they thought you should eat food in the natural state. Rather than canning stuff they concentrated on foods like potatos and squash in winter.

When their one house became too urban they gave away their land to a land trust (they could have sold it for big money) Sold the house and then moved to Maine and built another house they called their 70/90 house. Built when Helen was 70 and Scott was 90.

Scott died at 100 and Helen was in a car accident driving to town I think and died at I think 89.
 
Look into Permaculture.
It was started in Tasmania but the principles can be adapted to any climate. It revolves around using a layered growing system with a focus on perennials. Animals do a lot of the dirty work(chicken tractors, wild birds dropping fertilizers, fish eat low hanging fruit, beneficial insects for pollination and insect control)...
great book by Bill Mollison(the founder) it's like my bible.

I took a certification course through the Permaculture Institute of Northern California on 80 acres in the Trinity Alps. It changed my life.
 
I disagree. I love soy milk, and I also raise Saanen goats, drink their milk and make cheese, yogurt and kefir. I eat goat meat and raise and slaughter my own poultry.

THAT SAID despite my enjoyment of raising livestock, it is really an inefficiant use of your resources for the protein you get out of it.

IMO if you were aiming at self sufficiency you'd be better off growing as many vegetable sources of protein yourself and maybe for meat count on shooting wild game.

If you are going to raise livestock probably chickens and pigs make the most sense.

On the other hand for me I have to say despite having to buy feed for them the goats have really restored the fertility of the soil on my place because I raise them intensively and put all the manure on the gardens.

When I moved here the soil was like ROCK. All Clay. 22 years later and many tons of goat manure the soil is mega humus and loose.:thumbup:

What kind of goats are you raising for the meat? I've tried to whole Boer thing, and I swear, those things are born looking for a place to die. That is, the 100% SA Boers were. My hybrid brushgoat/Boer mixes can hardly be killed, come hail or high water.
 
I'd be hesitant to grow pigs without a freezer, at least with beef/goat you can dry the meat, where as pork is a little more challenging. just a thought. but pigs are good for breaking land on their own. I think that in all things there is a balance and trying to live a certain way because of politics is a silly thing. Granted, there are people who do quite well as vegetarians but I will say that the statement that livestock are less efficient than gardening for food is based on a false assumption. One would have to assume that the land would be adequate for gardening, which is not always true, there are patches of land that will support a few animals, that one would be hard pressed to grow any usable veggies on, I'm thinking most of the pasture out back of my Dad's place. Yes hunting has a valuable spot, but so does not having to go looking for the animal. Again, everything in realistic balance. Besides, given how good you can eat growing your own food, and with things like a pressure cooker and the like, Why not?
 
Respectfully disagree about 'no pigs without a freezer.' As a kid in Arkansas in the 1940s, we butchered one or two large hogs every fall and the nearest electric line was miles away.

I remember butchering clearly because I was the 'handy lad' who had to do all the following chores preparatory to butchering:
-Cut poles and construct a tripod for raising and lowering the dead hog.
-Position the 70 gallon vat under the tripod.
-Cut and stack a cord or two of hardwood for the vat and other fires.
-Carry 70 gallons of water from the well to fill the vat.
-Help bring the hog from the pen and hold it so a grownup could kill it with a large hammer to the forehead.
-Scoop out the entrails, take them to a nearby table and begin washing and stripping the guts for sausage casing.
-Carry out two plus dozen five and ten gallon ceramic crocks for storing cooked porkchops and other cuts.
-Tend the two or three other fires where the women fried the chops and rendered lard.
-Help pour a couple of inches of molten lard into each crock, then a layer of cooked chops, followed by more lard and so on to the top.

Yep, remember all that well and then, after the initial butchering, your's truly cut hard and fruit wood and stacked it by the smoke house so the old man could smoke hams. Altogether, it was several days of hard work for everyone but we had lots of 'preserved' pork for the winter. The ham smoking, BTW, went on for a month or more so lots of fire tending and wood hauling. But, like I said in another post on this thread, we ate like kings and ALL we bought at the grocery store in town was coffee and salt!
 
I wanted to also make an additional comment about small plot gardening. I mentioned the 'French Intensive Method' in a previous post. This system is still used around French cities and major towns where the local farmers use it to provide much of the fresh produce for the nearby cities.

The FIM system requires a lot of work to get started but, once installed, will produce bumper crops for many years (10 to 15) without fertilizing or having to redig the soil. Basically, it's a deep pit dug in the soil at least five feet deep, four to five feet wide, and 20 or more feet long. Small tree limbs, brush, weeds, grass, and kitchen scrap type compost are dumped into the pit bottom to about a foot deep and leveled out. This is followed by a six inch layer of soil, then more grass, leaves, compost, etc. The pit is filled with these layers to about a foot above ground level. The French farmers usually have a low retaining wall of planks or stone around the top of the pit.

The result is an expanse of super rich and loose soil heavy with organic matter. The roots of whatever is planted can go down for many feet. Tomatos, for instance, can have six foot roots! The decomposing organic matter provides nutrients for many years and the loose soil absorbs water easily. I've tried it on a small scale and it does work well. Unfortunately, I was transferred and had to leave my two beds behind but I'm about ready to try it again here in New Mexico where the adobe soil needs all the help it can get.
 
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