How Much Land Per-person for Subsistance Farming?

It can be done on significantly less, check these people out. http://www.pathtofreedom.com/about/urbanhomestead.shtml It appears to be the same people that charadeur posted a link to, don't know which site is most recent. They also have some youtube videos and practice many different techniques like edible landscaping, square foot gardening, vertical gardening, etc.

CPL Punishment: where in florida? The fruit that can be successfully grown here varies drastically depending on what part of the state you are in.
 
well, maybe build a lake or pond and raise some fishes and have another water source, maybe irrigate the garden, water the critters. if you grew a few types of small grains, oats wheat, rye, barley, you will also have a lot of Straw and it has some valuable uses too. also may want to consider Bees.

Everyone thinks they need a Clydesdale or Belguim, but a smaller Halflinger or other Draft pony will do alot of work. I know a few folks that grow their own Oxen from the calves of milk cows.

And someone wondered where the meat came from with dairy animals. you can't milk the boys only need one bull or billy, you may have a few steers/ oxen or withers to grow out.
 
When I did some farming up in Maine in years past we grew some oats, and barley. It was quite a bit of work using a team of Holestein oxen, whose names ironically were 'Ben & Jerry!' This was about ten years prior to those 2 guys forming their ice cream company what foresight,eh?! Yes, there was straw from the grains, but until you've personally done this type of thing you underestimate the workload. Pretty much like everything that has to do with farming I find city folks that think 'it's not that hard'. Yeah, a couple of 100'F+ days mucking out a milking barn and chicken coop will have them begging on both knees not to have to do it again, let alone slaughter their rabbits, chickens and other critters they raised from 'babies'. Book reading and doing are two totally different deals; as everyone here knows whose read 'survival' books and then gone out and froze their a** off, or gotten the shizzt from drinking out of that 'crystal clear mountain stream'....
 
Oh, and CW4, he's the REAL DEAL, not that I had to mention it, but I can relate to what he is posting about having done some similiar things in my youth.
 
Great thread guys! Like other have already said it depends entirely on your location.
First thing, look at what natives did or do in your area. There are often foods that are nutritous and native to an area that get overlooked.

For a very looooong time now humans have evolved away hunting and gathering. The surplus of agriculture has given us the ability to move far beyond the practical. The animals that we breed and the calories we consume are results of the surplus not the cause. As others have said modern animals and plants are made for modern farming.

One simple example thoroughbred horses. This breed would make a very poor pack or plow animal.They really exist for sport only. A better choice espcially in my area is say a fjord (viking pony). They are compact hardy with a better temperment.
With cows a good northern choice would be the Scottish highland catle. Again these animals are compact hardy and can withstand the cold better. They also produce a good amount of meat.

I have only ever lived in Northern Michigan but I can tell you what I know about from farming here. 7 acres is not enough to keep a horse. 1 acre will grow enough potatoes for several people. I still have about 50 pounds af potatoes from last years crop. They are still fresh and tasty. They spent the winter in the ground in the spring I pulled the last of them up. Potatoes are very easy to keep grow prepare and cook. I love potatoes! Rabits are also very easy to keep. They take up very little space reproduce like crazy and can live off hay.

I am no guru by any means just thought I would chime in.
Again cool thread.
 
1Tracker said:
Pretty much like everything that has to do with farming I find city folks that think 'it's not that hard'. Yeah, a couple of 100'F+ days mucking out a milking barn and chicken coop will have them begging on both knees not to have to do it again,
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Heh! Sound like the stories my parents told me of their early days of marriage. They were both city kids, but they bought a couple acres of farmland in rural Indiana with a house on it, with the romantic idea of having a part time farm to supplement their food supplies. Since my father worked 40+ hours a week in the city, much of the day to day work fell to my mother and she told me how much work just their big kitchen garden was (all hand work, becuase they could not afford a tractor). She told me their neighboors used to snicker at her out in the garden with her shorts and sandals, hoeing and weeding, while they rode around in coveralls on their tractors.

let alone slaughter their rabbits, chickens and other critters they raised from 'babies'.
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Mom told me how the one year they raised chickens neither she nor my father could kill them, so they paid a neighboor to do it for them. Then after all the time and money they invested in them, she gave most of the meat away because whe "knew" the chickens and could not bring herself to eat them!

In the end, they used the excuse of her first pregnancy (me!) to sell the farm and move back to the 'burbs. :p
 
Great topic! We grew up always building a small garden. This one is where my parents have retired and it's been built for about 30 years and the garden has been steadily maintained for the past 20 years (we moved, rented and then they returned after my father retired).

These are pictures I took last year (June I think) when I was working up at Fort Lewis, WA for a few months. As you can see, it's not really that big, but I've spent plenty of time weeding; my father uses the tiller every fall/winter and gets a truck load of manure added in. In the back corner is his compost...also a great source to dig worms for fishing:thumbup: You can also see the high fence due to the raiding deer they have to keep out.

They don't make a ton of food, but a lot of supplemental sources. It's really a hobby of my dad as he grew up on an orchard farm in eastern WA.

What you can't see is the small miniature horse and goat pen off to the side. My sister lives with my parents and has a few goats (show goats...useless) and a walking, biting little future equestrian glue bastard:mad:

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I have the "Square Foot Gardening" book and it's a great primer and one of my personal goals I want to try in the next year or two. As CW4 mentioned, it's hard to do in the military as once you get something built, it's time to move on:mad: I'm hoping the next move is my last...

I like the square-foot method as it lets you see what does well and what you like the most. You can increase the production if needed or cut where you don't. Additionally, this method is great for the smaller backyards and where you don't want to invest in a tiller. There is some science to it as you can add some of the anti-bug plants around your garden as well...

For those just getting started, I think this is the best method. The larger the garden, the more work and attention is required...you could easily wear yourself out and get disappointed. Start small and work to what is best for you and your family. I personally don't care for corn as it just takes up too much space for such a small yield...you really need a much larger footprint. Potatoes are perfect and you can stack tires for raised beds...getting a ton of potatoes. A fruit tree or three is another great idea...one that needs to get started now if you want produce in the next 4-5 years.

I envy those with the gardens now...I'm way behind the power curve!

ROCK6
 
Old CW4 said:
For starters, there are just FIVE crops that feed the entire world! No kidding. They are wheat, rice, potatos, beans, and corn. Those five plants and their modern hybrids and deviritives are all high in caloric density, relatively easy to store for fairly long periods of time, and humans in some parts of the world subsist almost entirely on just two of them. One of the 'magic' pairs that comes to mind is beans and corn. Beans have lots of protein, however, we can't assimilate much of it unless the enzymes from corn are combined with the beans---as healthy Mexican peasants have done for centuries. Another healthy pair is rice combined with very small quantities of meat or fish and millions of Asians have lived for eons eating little else. BTW, China is NOT and never has been a major rice producing nation. The principal food crop in China is wheat and guess where noodles and pasta came from?
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First I gotta say thanks for your posts CW4 - people like you and the knowledge you have how to make a living off the land are an asset the world is going to sorely miss in the future.

Besides the crops you mention, squash, like potatoes, stores well for the winter months. Looking into "Three Sisters" planting the way the American Indians grew squash, corn and beans may be a good idea.

I'm going to have to check out those Earth Boxes - sounds real interesting.

For anyone interested I get my seeds for stockpiling from VictorySeeds.com - I've only ordered from them once but I got good service and they only sell the non-hybrid varieties.

As far as the original poster's question, get as much land as you can afford! As they say, they ain't making more of it! :D You can always put it to some use.

For anyone interested in another option for milk and meat besides goats, you might want to look into Scottish Highland cattle. They do real well in cold weather, don't need shelter, calve on their own, are resistant to disease, will do fine eating what most cattle will starve on, and can provide you with hair (wool) to spin into yarn.

Having your own animals is a real cost/benefit analysis - they can provide you with protein, labor, and manure for your fields. But they take up a lot of time and land.
 
Cpl Punishment said:
Wow, that's interesting, I didn't think it'd be that little.
What did you guys grow to live on when you were young?
Any fruit trees? (I live in FL, and am looking for some good fruit trees that will grow well -- thinking of peach trees, for one).
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I don't know anyone who has had much luck with peaches in Florida, YMMV. I tried a variety that supposedly were developed to grow down here and they have been a complete failure. What has been very successful for my family through the years: blueberries, figs, pomegranates, certain citrus trees (we live in North Florida where it does freeze several times a year) and scuppernongs. Fig preserves are still a staple for lots of folks in the rural areas, and of course muscadine wine made from the scuppernongs is always popular.
 
Wow! I'd forgotten I had posted this, but glad I found it. Really a lot of great info here, thanks!

So it looks like it would take anywhere from 1/2 to 1 acre per person without any sorts of intensive investments.

Now I have to start laying-in a supply of potato and indian corn seeds, as well as chili peppers, garlic & onions.
 
What you can't see is the small miniature horse and goat pen off to the side. My sister lives with my parents and has a few goats (show goats...useless) and a walking, biting little future equestrian glue bastard

LMAO! Yeah Rock, if you get a chance to harrass the little basturd, do so, they hate it! I'd bring a mini harness down next time and put it on him and hook him up to a plow...THEN call your sister outside, THEN run like Hell! LMAO! Good fer nuttin Little biters is right! If you eat you work, or you don't eat around a farm, 2 or 4 legged!
 
EMT_Lee said:
What kind of goats are you raising for the meat? I've tried to whole Boer thing, and I swear, those things are born looking for a place to die. That is, the 100% SA Boers were. My hybrid brushgoat/Boer mixes can hardly be killed, come hail or high water.
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I raise registered Saanens. They are a dairy breed but you can eat them just like any goat.

I've never raised Boers but have had a lot of boer folks buy bucks off of me because they claimed that the pure boers did not produce enough milk for the kids to grow fast and crossing them with saanens (highest average of the dairy breeds) makes them really grow.

Here's a cheesemaking tutorial MAKING FETA
 
naifu said:
I know they say to buy seed potatoes from a good supplier each year, but we've been saving the small potatoes, keeping them in a dark cool spot in the garage that doesn't freeze, and throwing them in the dirt in the spring. They keep producing...
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Yeah we've done that too:thumbup:
 
hollowdweller said:
I raise registered Saanens. They are a dairy breed but you can eat them just like any goat.

I've never raised Boers but have had a lot of boer folks buy bucks off of me because they claimed that the pure boers did not produce enough milk for the kids to grow fast and crossing them with saanens (highest average of the dairy breeds) makes them really grow.

Here's a cheesemaking tutorial MAKING FETA
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Actually, milk production from my does was never a problem, as far as having enough for the kids. I've heard of a couple folks in my area crossing them with Nubians to increase milk production, though. Like I said, so far, I've not ran into that problem. The problem I have is that the Boer's just arent hardy enough, and if it stays too wet, they really run into problems. My experience, anyways. I've thought about trying Kiko's...
 
BTW, guys, don't forget, a relatively inexpensive and effective way to store food like grains and rice long term is to full 40 gallon or larger plastic garbage bags with the material til about 3/4 full. Then set a bowl on top of the grain or rice and place a pound or so of dry ice in the bowl. (You can get dry ice from most super market delicatessens, my local Albertsons lists it for 50 cents a pound).

The dry ice will, of course turn into vapor as it 'melts.' When the garbage can is overflowing with the vapor, take out the bowl with remaining dry ice, fit the lid on the garbage can, and seal it tightly with caulk and tape. The dry ice infuses itself all through the stored grain or rice, displaces the oxygen, and any and all weevils, other insects, bacteria, etc. are history. Grain/rice stored this way will easily keep for ten years.

This method should also work for seed....?
 
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