How much worse is down?

N

NeedItCheaper

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Jun 17, 2012
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I keep hearing that down is way worse when wet than synthetic. My question is.............. How much worse again? I have sweat in my SnuPak Softie Elite 3 in the low twenties, and by the next night the sweat was completely dry. One night I even stupidly put part of the bag over my face and that part got pretty soaking from my breath, did not dry by the next night, and even still I did just as good as the last night.


What's your experience with down? Is it really as bad as people say, or are you relatively in the same boat as a synthetic bag.


Side note, anyone know of a bag that compacts a lot smaller than a Softie 3 while being under say the $250 range and also synthetic? I was going to try Recon sleeping bags, but I have heard all across the board that they just don't live up to there hype.
 
There is a difference between damp and wet. Wet down clumps, compresses and loses loft. Most modern synthetics do not. Mere dampness from perspiration or high humidity does not significantly affect down, but it can absorb it and is much slower to dry out than synthetics which are for the most part non-absorbant. In most circumstances, the fear of down is like the much mis-used addage, "cotton kills". Hyperbole bordering on a lie. That is my experience anyway.
 
In my experience, I use down sleeping bags when temperatures are going to be/remain below freezing. That way I'm assured of not experiencing a thoroughly soaked sleeping bag. To minimize incidental moisture entering my sleeping bag I use a vapor-barrier liner which not only keeping moisture out of the sleeping bag, but also keeping it clean on the inside as well. However, I'm considering buying a down bag for warmer temps to realize a huge weight/size savings.

A common misnomer about synthetic insulation (especially in sleeping bags) is that it is "warm" when wet..... it's actually more accurate to say "warmer" (than down or other insulation types) when wet, but wet is wet and creates a loosing battle to maintain a constant temperature - regardless of whether it's synthetic insulation or anything else.

If my sleeping actually is or becomes wet, I have bigger problems than just what a sleeping bag will help with.

Down vs Synthetic insulation is pretty hotly debated - from avid backpackers, the light-weight hiking crowd and even among the most experienced, hard-core alpinists. There are good points on both sides of the debate so each user must fully understand and compensate for the advantages/short-comings of each.
 
Codger_64 said:
There is a difference between damp and wet. Wet down clumps, compresses and loses loft. Most modern synthetics do not. Mere dampness from perspiration or high humidity does not significantly affect down, but it can absorb it and is much slower to dry out than synthetics which are for the most part non-absorbant. In most circumstances, the fear of down is like the much mis-used addage, "cotton kills". Hyperbole bordering on a lie. That is my experience anyway.
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I'm not wanting to be argumentative, so please accept this as my experience-based opinion.

The old adage, "cotton kills" is based on the effect of using cotton shirts, socks, undergarments in cold weather temps while exerting heavily and then perspiring/soaking these cotton garments. This is problematic because cotton takes a long time to dry in cold temperatures and it's important to keep the body's core temp at ~98.6. Cold, wet garments against the skin make keeping the core temp warm more difficult because when the evaporating moisture goes away from the body it works like perspiration which cools the body.

I learned/experienced this having grown up in a cold climate and working outside that when I soaked my cotton shirts from sweating, I cooled down quickly, but it took a while for the sweat-soaked shirt to dry. This experienced was magnified when I was snowshoeing and would get cold quickly once I stopped and my soaked shirt was no longer keeping me warm.

When the synthetic's garments started coming to market it was a huge benefit because it made an inexpensive solution to the perspiration problem. However, synthetic materials were not the first solution to this problem. I'm not sure exactly is it was truly first, but silk undergarments have been used for cold-weather undergarments by mountaineers since at least as early as the 1950's. A little google-fu research would likely tell what was used first (though probably there are geographic differences to be accounted for), but it definitely was not cotton.

Anyway, I hope I've explained my opinion well and without inciting malice.
 
I don't own a syn bag. All mine are the highest end down. My thinking is..ones bag, is ones very last and THE most important resource, luxury, and sanctum, thats protected and kept dry no matter what and under ALL circumstances. That is first and foremost priority.

Hiking in the rain, snow, etc? I place the then stuffed sack bag into a trashbag(or 2) before placing into the very bottom of my pack. Then if it rains enough even to saturate the pack, its still good to go. Even setting the pack on the wet ground can and will soak the bottom of it and potentially get to the bag, so this protects its then also. Camping in the wet and humidity? I don't take the bag out of the stuff sack until shortly before actually getting into it. Just enough time to let it get to full loft.

Make sure no part of the bag is ever touching the tent walls.

NEVER place a trash bag or similar none breathable something over it. It WILL get crazy wet by morning. The most I've done is lay my breathable shell jacket over the foot box, and even then I was careful to not do it for very long.

I've been backpacking in the wet(we'd hear from the weather man of a front coming thru, and rush up to the mtns, specifically to get in the way of it. to be under siege, so to speak. just fun to do sometimes) for a life time really, and more then most will ever go. Some trips where it rained for days, and days, and days:thumbdn:. And I've never ever had a wet soaked down bag, or even been cold in one for that matter. Never. The worst was killer storm at 6100' up on an exposed bald in NC..while in a Marmot Asylum singlewall(that was recalled because the waterproof breathable membrane..wasn't waterproof) that was leaking thru the tents walls, and shaking off (the tent was being pounded by 50-70mph winds) all over the bag, gear, everything. I waited until late to pull the bag out. The bag got pretty wet on the outside(which WILL give "some" defense) and did get to a good bit of the down but not soaking it yet. But even then, it still maintained a lot of it loft, I was still warm all night. Luckily that was my last night on a 5 day solo trip.

Remember, even IF you get the bag truly wet..the worst you'd have to do its get out of it..put your layers back on..make some hot coffee, food, etc, and wait till morning :). won't be fun, but you'll be ok. Hopefully the weather will be clear enough to try and dry it out somewhat..or just hike out..etc. Regardless you'll be good until its time to sleep again lol.
 
fmajor007 said:
I'm not wanting to be argumentative, so please accept this as my experience-based opinion.

The old adage, "cotton kills" is based on the effect of using cotton shirts, socks, undergarments in cold weather temps while exerting heavily and then perspiring/soaking these cotton garments. This is problematic because cotton takes a long time to dry in cold temperatures and it's important to keep the body's core temp at ~98.6. Cold, wet garments against the skin make keeping the core temp warm more difficult because when the evaporating moisture goes away from the body it works like perspiration which cools the body.

I learned/experienced this having grown up in a cold climate and working outside that when I soaked my cotton shirts from sweating, I cooled down quickly, but it took a while for the sweat-soaked shirt to dry. This experienced was magnified when I was snowshoeing and would get cold quickly once I stopped and my soaked shirt was no longer keeping me warm.

When the synthetic's garments started coming to market it was a huge benefit because it made an inexpensive solution to the perspiration problem. However, synthetic materials were not the first solution to this problem. I'm not sure exactly is it was truly first, but silk undergarments have been used for cold-weather undergarments by mountaineers since at least as early as the 1950's. A little google-fu research would likely tell what was used first (though probably there are geographic differences to be accounted for), but it definitely was not cotton.

Anyway, I hope I've explained my opinion well and without inciting malice.
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I agree. The "trueism" is only true in a narrowly defined set of circumstances. In the same way that "Synthetics kill", as any welder or firefighter will attest. And many hunters/campers who got too close to a fire. Debriding melted synthetic clothing from burned skin is serious stuff. But back to bags, insulation value is in large part based on trapped air between fibers. As fibers compress, less air can be trapped and heat is lost through convection and conduction. A bag of wet, flat feathers is not very insulative. Climashield and such does not loose loft whe ndamp or moderately wet so can still provide some insulative value. Just sayin'.
 
I keep my sleeping bag in a goretex bivvy sack as part of my sleep system, I used to only use synthetic bags but about a year ago I changed over to down bags for all weather conditions.

The reason synthetic bags are often recommended for wet conditions is as stated they maintain their loft where a down bag will not and basically become useless.

I often camp in very wet conditions and due to this never warmed to down bags after a couple of miserable experiences. This changed with the birth of water proof and water resistant outer fabrics used in the construction of modern down bags. Nowadays unless you sweat extremely heavily or completely fail to take basic precautions when transporting and using your down bag the gap between down and synthetic is closing in all but the most extreme scenario's.

The only environment I still use a synthetic bag is in the tropics other than that its down all the way.
 
Lots of makers are now using "dridown", which is a coating that makes the down hydrophobic, and absorbs much less water. A huge improvement, but of course the price reflects it.

[video=youtube;-wre5nk-aAY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wre5nk-aAY[/video]
 
Like cotton down has a negative insulating value when it's wet. It also takes longer to dry than many synthetics.

On a longer trip the condensation from your body can dampen your bag and that will reduce it's warmth if it doesn't dry during the day. It won't get soaked, but it can be less comfortable after a week or longer.
 
We perspire in our sleep
That sweat has to go somewhere
In the winter, the dampness passes into the insulating material of the Sleeping bag
Inside the bag is damp and the outside of the bag freezes
When you compress your bag to hike or snowshow, the moisture freezes in the bag
Whe you warm up the bag, the moisture wet the down
Over the period of the freeze thaw prosess, down significantly looses its loft

I have taken down jackets in sub zero for quite a few days, and at the end it was not lofting like it did to begin with, and a very significant loss of insulation

So I only used fill after that
I have come home with synthetic bags that worked well over a week or so, with no loss of insulating performance
But when I got home and the bag thawed, it was wet to touch from the absorbed sweat
 
To neeman's very accurate point, the more moisture down absorbs, the less dead air it traps = less loft = the less it insulates. Since your body gives off moisture unless you are dead, down steadily loses loft when worn as a garment (including a "sleeping bag"). Whether it loses enough loft that you get uncomfortable or in trouble over the period of your outing is a function of how active you are, whether external moisture adds to your woes, and whether you have dry, sunny weather to dry out at least some of the moisture from the down.

Is there waterproof down ? I Googled and the folks selling it say there is. I'd like someone who has used it to report. Even if it works, it is solving a problem already solved by Primaloft only at a FAR higher cost to you.

Primaloft is what the military, after honest-to-God scientific testing immune from Magic Thinking, has decided to use. Practicality is, of course, part of the military equation. And not for us?

Silk does not transport moisture as well as man-made fabrics and is slower to dry than man-mades. Hence, military "silks" are made-made fabrics.
 
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I believe folks hope for a water-proof down, but the coating technology is in it's infancy.

As to Primaloft, it is not, in "real world" (not laboratory/theoretical potential) use, as good an insulator (in a sleeping bag application) as good quality, high-loft down. If it were, then professional, high-altitude alpinists would disdain their time-tested down bags en masse, but that's just not happening. The military never chooses equipment strictly because it's the highest performing "for the troops" - often it's the item that can work well and can be obtained cheaply - that gets adopted. The "elite" forces often get a budget to acquire civilian mountaineering gear because standard, issued gear is simply not as good (tents and sleeping bags are definitely in this category according to one of the US Special Forces mountaineering instructors I know).

To keep my down sleeping bag dry from my perspiration I use a vapor-barrier liner inside my bag. It took a little getting used to (like many things in life), but it allows me to enjoy all the advantages of a down sleeping bag. I've never tried any of the VBL garments (mainly shirts or mittens), but I'read/heard positive experiences with them.
 
fmajor007 said:
I'm not wanting to be argumentative, so please accept this as my experience-based opinion.
Click to expand...

Within an internet debate using actual field experience can be a mistake as often it will be countered by BS derived from a Google search or 3rd hand mumbo jumbo. Not saying that will happen here but sadly that is often the case. Anyone who has spent time outdoors and taken improper clothing for the conditions knows full well the pain. This isn't to say cotton always kills because there are times when it is very good. I like a cotton bandanna around the neck during summer to cool me off. During extreme cold there are wonderful cotton garments that are old school and IMHO work better than newer stuff. But for cold and wet cotton is horrible. Just horrible. It sucks up water and never lets go.

On a side note according to the interwebs a down sleeping bag somehow must magically get soaked. Sometimes condensation will get my bag damp in a section but soaked? Maybe once in 30 years of crawling around in the woods I actually managed to flood a bag.

Synthetic clothing (boxers are actually blended with cotton) and down bag. It was snow like crazy outside the tent. Hiking and setting during a snow storm is kinda fun.



Same bag making an appearance in summer.

 
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Thomas Linton said:
Is there waterproof down ? I Googled and the folks selling it say there is. I'd like someone who has used it to report. Even if it works, it is solving a problem already solved by Primaloft only at a FAR higher cost to you.

Primaloft is what the military, after honest-to-God scientific testing immune from Magic Thinking, has decided to use. Practicality is, of course, part of the military equation. And not for us?
Click to expand...

I have a "Super Down" pullover made by Kuiu. I wouldn't characterize it as 'solving a problem already solved by Primaloft.' In fact, I would say it pretty much makes Primaloft obsolete, unless price is your only deciding factor. My jacket only weighs 7oz. and is WAY warmer than a Primaloft layer of the same weight. It is also more compressible, and packs down smaller than Primaloft. And perhaps most importantly - down doesn't break down over time anywhere near as rapidly as synthetic insulation does. Most Primaloft jackets I've owned (and I've owned quite a few) are about as insulating as tissue paper after a couple seasons of hard use. This last factor - that it will last longer, makes paying a little more up front a moot point in my mind.

So if price is your only factor, sure, you can get a Primaloft layer for less money. But if warmth-to-weight ratio, compressibility and lifespan of the insulation are also factored in, I don't know why anyone would still buy a synthetic insulating layer now that there are good waterproof down options on the market. I'm as critical as anyone about gear, and it really is that good.

Here is a demo of regular down versus Super Down (Dri Down). I've seen this done in person, and can testify that there is no bs going on here:

[video=youtube;LgH7HSvla9k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgH7HSvla9k[/video]
 
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Well, at least this conversation is going better than this .

I currently live in the PNW and use wool, synthetics, and down. I personally prefer to use down in large garments and sleeping bags to fully utilize the weight benefits and use wool and synthetics for lighter weight jackets, base layers and shirts. The two cons that I haven't seen mentioned here is synthetic's tendency to degrade much faster than down and down is much more difficult to launder than synthetics. A good down sleeping bag, properly cared for, can last you 20 years or more. . Compression really breaks the synthetic fibers easily and even new garments off of the shelf have less than half of it's laboratory clo values. You can read more on another backpacking site and search for clo values of down or synthetic jackets. One member there conducts his own tests and claims that he is not affiliated with any clothing company.
 
NeedItCheaper said:
I keep hearing that down is way worse when wet than synthetic. My question is.............. How much worse again?
Click to expand...

This certainly is a debate that has raged for many years. My take is this - if we limit ourselves to a discussion of the higher end offerings in both down and synthetic bags that have traditionally been available over the last couple decades, then I'd say that a good synthetic bag's single greatest advantage has been that it has provided hikers and campers an extra measure of safety in the worst case scenario of a bag, or a portion of the bag, getting soaked. It's an advantage that came at the expense of weight, bulk and less than optimal performance under normal conditions. If you were confident you could keep your bag clean and dry, then down was superior in pretty much every regard other than the initial buy in cost.

My most recent personal anecdote dates back a number of years to a long weekend spent winter hiking/camping in the mountains of California. After some hours spent lending assistance to another group of hikers, we were forced to set camp on a moonless night under the illumination of our then state-of-the-art 15 lumen headlamps. With temps in the upper 30s, I found a relatively flat spot to pitch the Sierra Designs tent. A bit of dinner and not long thereafter I was snoozing snugly inside my Mountain Hardwear synthetic mummy bag. At some point in the night the rains came. If I noticed it all, I probably was completely unconcerned as my four season tent had weathered many a downpour without incident. I eased awake the next morning to the sounds of the birds chirping. A quick peak revealed the cold gray morning outside. As I resolved to get dressed and fire up some breakfast, I first began to notice an unusual sensation at the foot of my bag. Looking down, it became apparent that the one end of my tent was lying in a depression that had formed a natural pool overnight due to the rain. The rising water level had worked its way in-between the footprint and the underside of the tent. By morning, there was an inch of standing water in the lower third of my tent and my sleeping bag was completely soaked from about mid-shin to the end of the bag. My heels and ankles were completely immersed for who knows how many hours. And yet at no point during the night did I ever have the slightest hint any of this was happening. My feet weren't even really cold in the morning. I slept through it all like the proverbial baby. It's a fairly amazing testament to quality synthetic insulation's ability to retain heat in fairly adverse moisture conditions. Later that morning the front passed through and sunny skies were on the other side. I wrung out the water from the foot of the bag, laid it over the tent to dry in the sun and was good to go for the remainder of the trip.

Had I been using a quality down bag of the type available at that time, it would have been a much different story. I would have been forced to reposition my tent in the middle of the night in the driving rain and then suffer through the remaining hours of darkness in the misery of a cold, wet sleeping bag. Such a mishap would have likely ended the trip. Instead, thanks to the synthetic bag, I really wasn't negatively impacted in any way. Of course, technology today may well be changing the calculus. Water repellent (yet supposedly breathable) shells and hydrophobic down treatments could turn the tables back in favor of down. And if it can, then I will surely welcome it, because every ounce saved in your hiking load out is precious indeed.
 
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milani74 said:
Well, at least this conversation is going better than this .

I currently live in the PNW and use wool, synthetics, and down. I personally prefer to use down in large garments and sleeping bags to fully utilize the weight benefits and use wool and synthetics for lighter weight jackets, base layers and shirts. The two cons that I haven't seen mentioned here is synthetic's tendency to degrade much faster than down and down is much more difficult to launder than synthetics. A good down sleeping bag, properly cared for, can last you 20 years or more. . Compression really breaks the synthetic fibers easily and even new garments off of the shelf have less than half of it's laboratory clo values. You can read more on another backpacking site and search for clo values of down or synthetic jackets. One member there conducts his own tests and claims that he is not affiliated with any clothing company.
Click to expand...

Don't use compression sacks. Use a normal stuff sack.
Don't store any bag, down or man-made, compressed.
 
I usually store my down bags loosely in large cotton pillow cases. Still have a Marmot down bag from 1990 that's goin' strong!
 
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