How often do you sharpen to the 'extreme?'

[pwet]

you say that as if knives can't be both toothy and sharp (which is obviously false).

there's no need to patronize here.

i've just found that an edge doesn't have to be mirror polished to slice a tomato.

in my experience a toothy edge slices and bites as good as you would ever need (but i don't work in a kitchen).

sorry to the OP i'm done.

nope you misread me, a sharp toothy edge will cut just fine, it'll just leave your tomato with a crappy texture and in a professionnal environment your prep wont last long before not being visually attractive.

but since your earlier post you already changed your words ...

funny you should mention tomatoes which happen to slice better when a toothy edge is used as opposed to a mirror polished edge. toothy bites through the skin much easier but maybe you have special tomatoes in your world.

earlier you said with a far from neutral tone than a mirror polished edge wasnt suited ... so i answered it was false, because it is false. plain and simple. and i repeat, if you cant slice a tomato with a polished edge with less effort than with a toothier one it just means that you dont know how to properly polish an edge. no offense or anything, just facts.

 

[unit]

nope you misread me, a sharp toothy edge will cut just fine, it'll just leave your tomato with a crappy texture and in a professionnal environment your prep wont last long before not being visually attractive.

but since your earlier post you already changed your words ...



earlier you said with a far from neutral tone than a mirror polished edge wasnt suited ... so i answered it was false, because it is false. plain and simple. and i repeat, if you cant slice a tomato with a polished edge with less effort than with a toothier one it just means that YOUR EDGE IS NOT IN SUITABLE CONDITION FOR THE TASK. no offense or anything, just facts.

Fixed it for you. I agree with what you are saying, but I don't think anyone wants an argument here (we have kicked that horse in too many other threads)

 

[pwet]

agreed unit, you are right (often.... ). this is my personal horse i think, i've seen too many cooks grabbing a bread/steack knife to cut tomatoes, doing a crappy job because they were going by wrong reasoning like this one ...

the cutting board thing is another pet peeves i have, at work, i'll gladly sharpen my employees knives, if i know they respect their tools until. if i hear one scraping his board with an edge i've spent time on it's the last time i touch his knife.

sorry for being a bit caustic here.

 

[four_shore]

agreed unit, you are right (often.... ). this is my personal horse i think, i've seen too many cooks grabbing a bread/steack knife to cut tomatoes, doing a crappy job because they were going by wrong reasoning like this one ...

the cutting board thing is another pet peeves i have, at work, i'll gladly sharpen my employees knives, if i know they respect their tools until. if i hear one scraping his board with an edge i've spent time on it's the last time i touch his knife.

sorry for being a bit caustic here.

fair enough.

i've been wrong before so i don't have a problem admitting to that.

i've always been under the impression that mirror edges weren't any more useful than just a standard/toothy edge.

probably due to word of mouth more than first hand experience (i've always used a more toothy edge).

it varies with application i suppose. most of my experience with knives is utility in which i never found a mirror edge to hold worth a damn.

ya learn something new everyday.

thanks for the lesson.

 

[unit]

....probably due to word of mouth more than first hand experience (i've always used a more toothy edge).

it varies with application i suppose. most of my experience with knives is utility in which i never found a mirror edge to hold worth a damn.

I admire your humility. There is a LOT of word of mouth and a lot of 'facts' that are rooted in repeated (but untested) opinions from complete strangers.

I have seen beautiful mirror edges that did NOT meet at the apex (dull as a butter knife). I have seen beautiful polished wire edges that collapse as they whittle the second hair. I have also seen toothy edges that perform the same way...and I have experienced polished (and toothy) edges that are amazing!

I urge everyone to form their own opinion, but be careful to do so while giving each option a fighting chance.

The only absolutely correct answer is: YMMV

Serrated edges can factor into this discussion as well. There is a reason serrations exist and are nearly ubiquitous on rescue applications....and I am sure we all have experience with very low cost knives with failed serrations. You cannot really argue that serrations don't cut aggressively, and when you want one to become two NOW, serrations are often a good choice. But the shape of the cut they make is quite different

 

[four_shore]

I admire your humility. There is a LOT of word of mouth and a lot of 'facts' that are rooted in repeated (but untested) opinions from complete strangers.

I have seen beautiful mirror edges that did NOT meet at the apex (dull as a butter knife). I have seen beautiful polished wire edges that collapse as they whittle the second hair. I have also seen toothy edges that perform the same way...and I have experienced polished (and toothy) edges that are amazing!

I urge everyone to form their own opinion, but be careful to do so while giving each option a fighting chance.

The only absolutely correct answer is: YMMV

Serrated edges can factor into this discussion as well. There is a reason serrations exist and are nearly ubiquitous on rescue applications....and I am sure we all have experience with very low cost knives with failed serrations. You cannot really argue that serrations don't cut aggressively, and when you want one to become two NOW, serrations are often a good choice. But the shape of the cut they make is quite different

great post here ^

very informative stuff.

thanks

 

[unit]

great post here ^

very informative stuff.

thanks

Thanks, but please don't just take my word on it

Another finding I'll share about polished edges. The effective angle and/or the amount of convex can make a huge difference depending on your performance goals.

 

[HwangJino]

Wish I could you my mirror edges in performance tests...

all my work knives are polished mirror and they work VERY well.

also my outdoor knives are all mirror polished and very duruable.

 

[Noctis3880]

in so many words you're only verifying that we're both right depending on your method of cutting.

as a produce clerk, chopping a tomato like that might be necessary but the toothy edge i finish with works excellent for

slow, accurate, equal slices.

cool video though.

is that you?

"Necessary"? No, not for a produce clerk as far as I know.

I was merely saying that it can be done with a razor edge, and most professional chefs who have to chop things for 8 hours would prefer speed over slow and steady, those customers won't get any less hungry over time:thumbup:.

Not me, that was a video of Mark Richmond demonstrating the use of his Laser series knives. If I tried that you'd probably be watching my fingers fly off.

In any case, I cut up a few more tomatoes for giggles and noted that the edge cut better with a slicing motion as opposed to a straight downward cut with no slicing motions. That might be different from chopping it on a cutting board though.

 

[HwangJino]

Chopping does degrade an edge faster than slicing.

and im sorry, I work 8-10 hours a day and my polish bevel goes through tomatoes with zero resistance. Toothy edges to me shows me thay cant sharpen as well, because ill polish their knife and they usually return with great results.

then they ask where to buy stones.

as a chef I see no benefit at the top of my head of a toothy edge over a polished one.

 

[neeman]

I went to the extreme for a short period but eventually got tired of going through all the steps. In testing I found such a marginal difference between 1000 grit and 100,000 grit or even 8000 grit that I started going back to a more practical and balanced edge that was related to the types of cutting I did.

Having such great levels of sharpness at hand can be impressive at times and a little fun but it does nothing for real world cutting.

Please will you explain more about more practical and balanced edges
Where do you stop sharpening

Thanks

 

[Jason B.]

Please will you explain more about more practical and balanced edges
Where do you stop sharpening

Thanks

All depends on the knife and the tasks it will perform.

I use waterstones these days for sharpening so most of the "grits" I reference will relate to that.

A "balanced edge" is a edge that is fine enough to cut smoothly yet retains enough tooth for cutting ability and edge retention. If you take a edge too fine then there is no tooth left in the edge and the sharpness will degrade quickly. If you leave a edge too coarse then you force the knife to work as you rip and tear the material being cut.

What you cut will greatly impact the level of finish as will the type of knife and the steel hardness. When it comes to cutting, blade geometry, edge angle, and steel hardness are king of the hill.

Most production folding knives get the average HT so putting a very fine edge on them does not provide much edge life. Most are also excessively thick so you start by fighting blade geometry from the very beginning. In such cases a coarser edge often helps.

I have found that the balance point with most folder will be around 1000 grit, sometimes coarser depending on the use but 1k is a good average.

In the kitchen 2-5k is the balance point for most cutting needs. I sharpen my Tojiro in white steel on a Naniwa 2k which in reality polishes to a 3-4k level. The blade is also only .008 behind the sharpened edge so blade geometry and the level of refinement balance out and allow for controlled cutting. Going to fine can give you lack of control as the edge will often not have enough "bite" to smoothly start the cut but enough sharpness to finish the cut in somewhat of a dramatic way.

Once you reach into specialized cutting and task specific knives the requirements can and will change. When sharpening a yanagi-ba for example 5k-8k is a minimal finishing point and I will often switch to natural polishing stones in the 10k-15k range depending on the user and knife.

Currently here are what some of my knives are sharpened at,

ZT0551, 800 grit waterstone
Spyderco military, 600 mesh DMT diamond
CPM-M4 mule team, 1k primary bevel 5k microbevel
Various hunting knives, 2-5k waterstone
Big choppers, mirror polished.

 

[four_shore]

If I tried that you'd probably be watching my fingers fly off.

haha likewise.

that guy has some serious skill.

 

[neeman]

Great reply
You have certainly explained your range of sharpening

All depends on the knife and the tasks it will perform. ......

I have 1095 and 01 scandi grinds for bushcrafting
Mora laminated for carving
And Queen and S&M slipjoints in D2, Carbon, and SS for general use and whittling

I am sharpening with King 220/1000 and 1000/4000
Or DMT all grits to EEF, but I normally stop at EF cause I cannot feel any extra result in EEF
And a black compound for a quick clean up and the white compound strop for finalizing a hone

What I find is:
The 4000 and the white compound do the scandi very well
The DMT EF and white compound is good for my slipjoints, but the 4000 seems to negate the edge on the slip joint

What do you suggest?