How should I feel about this ?

Joined
Nov 17, 2001
Messages
1,957
This is the first time this kind of incident happened to me. I was interested in purchasing a knife (custom) from a very reputable online dealer. However, at that time, I was having some problem with my bank account. I lost my debit card, and the bank required debit card (and other kind of Id) in order to make any transaction. Obviously I could not make any payment at that time.

I emailed the dealership asking them if it was possible to hold the knife for a couple of days. I explained to them that I had a problem with my bank. This is not the first time I've done business with them. Never had any problem with them before. Never returned any merchandise, never had problem with the payment, never had problem with the customer service.

Someone from the dealer emailed me back and he said he would hold the knife for a couple of days (noonebought the knife). I sent them an email the next day thanking them for understanding. One day passed. I checked my email, and I got another email from the dealer. He said that the knife has been sold.

What should I feel about it ?

:barf:
 
I think you have a right to be disappointed and I would express that disappointment to the dealer. I wouldn't necessarily stop doing business with the dealer, but they should be informed of your feelings.
 
You should be a little upset.

They seemed to forget that you had a good customer history with them.

They should've just said they couldn't hold the knife for you.
 
Unfortunatley this is one of the problem areas that will inherently follow internet business until technology is such that we have virtual face to face meetings. Unlike a local knife shop (which I unfortuntley have never had around me) where you can establish a relationship with the store people (loose term for employee's, owner) it will be hard to develop trust or customer-owner agreements such as the one that your talking about.

From your posting however I have a feeling that you are a pretty street-learned person who understands these things.

I know that i hae had similar problems at times, once with a bank problem (they lost my account aaarrrggghhhh:mad: didn't stay with them much longer) and then recently my wife tried to purchase a knife for me for christmas and somehow (honestly no idea whose fault) our zipcode got put into their computer as something that resembled a zipcode :confused: Anyway the first company was skylands cutlery and the second was 1sks.com. Both companies were very understanding and helpful and both situations worked out. Did they continue to sell both knives (both production)? Probably Would it have been different if they were their last one or a production I don't know but after working in a pawn shop for a while this past year I could understand where they would go ahead and sell it. However even in this pawnshop if we promised it we promised it.

Would I be upset at this company? In the time frame that you spoke of yes and no. I don't know who they were but if it is a slow month or small business they may have really needed to. Would I expect the company to keep their promises yes. At least they emailed you and told you that it was gone that is more than what most places would have. I would complain or at least call them and see what they can do to make up for their word? just a suggestion

This is one reason that I always call and talk with a rep. At least they have some personal contact with you vs. a non-personal email (email can only be so personal)

Again sorry to hear about your situation. The best advice that I could give you would be to call and see if they are willing to help in any way (another custom knife, discount for future purchase) and let them know in a way other than email of your dissapointment in their promise keeping.

Hope things work out for you.
Travis

edited to add.... A good customer history is hard to remember without a face or voice to put it with. On computer or paper a good history only looks like a transaction report. Just my .02 worth
 
That is a difficult situation. Technically the dealer didn't do anything wrong. You asked for a knife to be held based on your good name with them and it seems they chose another paying customer instead. It is hard to fault them as a business in these tough economic times. What the dealer failed to do was deliver good customer service to an existing customer. But here is where your understanding is required. Perhaps the gentleman or lady who bought the knife was also a long-time customer who found a knife they wanted. Maybe someone at the dealer just made a mistake and sold it after it had been reserved for you. Still, I know the sting of being treated like a nobody at a shop where you are a regular. I suggest you at least respond to the "sold" email to gently let the dealer know you are disappointed that they could not hold it for you for a few days while you sorted out your bank account. I carry and recommend an alternate credit card (such as American Express) as a backup to my bank's credit and debit/ATM cards precisely so I am never without a means to pay. Finally, I hope you find the knife you want.
 
They said they would hold it, they didnt. To me thats HORRIBLE customer service. Working in retail most of my job life I know if you make a customer feel unwanted, or not satisfied they WILL go elsewhere. Call em up, and tell em what they did was wrong. Being that it was a custom im shure you wont find another right? Id also tell em if you dont make it right you can find another dealer... they never like to those kinds of things like loosing business.

edit: P.S. It wouldnt have been anything wrong on their part if you didnt tell them the problem, but you did and they aknowledged it.
 
Technically the dealer didn't do anything wrong.

Yes, they did.

They said they would hold the knife for a few days and they turned around and sold it the very next day.

Legally, they broke a verbal contract. It'd be difficult to prove, but it's still illegal.

Ethically, they outright lied to their customer.

I know that for a business it is difficult to say no when a customer is standing there with cash in hand. But if you've made a committment to hold the knife for a few days, legally and ethically you've got to do that.

What should they have done? They should have told the second customer, "We've committed to another customer to hold this knife for three days. If we made that committment to you, you'd expect us to respect and keep that committment to you, so please don't ask us to break it with out other customer. We'll call the other customer and check his status and we'll also commit to you that if things don't work out with the first customer, we'll call you immediately." As a customer, myself, I would actually be more impressed by their honesty and by their committment to their word by that action.
 
Someone from the dealer emailed me back and he said he would hold the knife for a couple of days (noonebought the knife).

My previous post was in error as I overlooked this critical part. Gollnick, thanks for pointing that out.

I am interested to know the dealer's explaination. It could have been a mixup. Otherwise, it looks bad for the dealer.
 
When I get into a situation like this (and I had one with my good friend Terry Tussey), I always ask for "the right of first refusal."

No matter what the time frame, if another buyer asks about the object, the merchant can then say with a clear conscience, "Let me call the original client." I try to remember this is a business for gun and knife dealers. (I don't think they make as much money as some knuts think.)

In my case, Terry made a .380 ACP Government in "full custom." All of the features, four magazines, checkering and he broke all of the sharp edges. It took a year, and when the deal went down it was for more money than I had in checking. I had to scramble.

As to that other 'client,' my wife and I have always wondered if it was Steven Seagal. After all, +2,000 dollars for a .380 ACP?
 
Originally posted by beluga
would hold the knife for a couple of days

Originally posted by beluga
I sent them an email the next day


Originally posted by beluga
One day passed.

don't mean to be flip here, but afaik a couple of days = 2
if you sent them an email the NEXT day, and you received an email ONE day after that, doesn't it mean they held it for 2 days for you?

it might simply be a misunderstanding
don't be too hard on them
 
I think that SUCKS. I would definately let them know that you are disapointed with them. A sincere "You let me down" can go a long way.
 
Originally posted by Gollnick
Legally, they broke a verbal contract. It'd be difficult to prove, but it's still illegal. Ethically, they outright lied to their customer.
I disagree. Verbal contracts without proper consideration is non-binding. Which means, legally, they also did not have to request his permission to sell it, as there was no contract. Standard UCC procedure. Ethically, they also didn't lie to him, as the knife was indeed held for more than one day. It's barely compliant, but it's within the scope of the promise.

There are multiple ways for Mr. Jurianto to have made payment for the knife. Assuming he didn't have a credit card, he could have communicated that he was sending a check. That simple communications would have marked the knife as "Sold pending funds". He could have asked his bank to wire the money to the store via electronic transfer, which is in fact the same as using the debit card. He could have imposed a friend to buy it for him via credit card.

The point is, while this is a unfortunate occurance, and there are resentment all around, it's part of doing business. As mentioned above, his past history as a customer isn't something an internet store will keep in mind. And given the opportunity for the store to do the right thing and risk losing a firm sale, I can't fault them for doing what they did. This is strictly a case of "you snooze, you lose". No matter how unforunate the circumstances that surrounded his inability to purchase the knife outright.
 
I disagree. Verbal contracts without proper consideration is non-binding.

The consideration is a promise to perform (i.e. to pay) in the future.

If you were to create a written contract it might read "In consideration of Mr. Beluga's promise to purchase XYZ knifer on or before Friday, February 28, 2003 for the sum of $100, Acme Cutlery company agrees not to sell said knife to another customer before noon on the aforementioned date."

Is there value in Mr. Beluga's consideration, his promise to purchase the knife? Of course. There is value for Acme Cutlery in knowing that they have a reasonable expectation of selling that knife on a certain date. That knife could languish in their inventory for weeks, months, years until an interested buyer arrives. Acme's got an interested buyer right now. He just needs a few days to get his money straightened out. But, what if, in the mean time, Mr. Beluga sees another knife he likes even more? Maybe he'll change his mind and buy it instead and Acme will be, once again, stuck with this knife that could take a long time to sell. To, to assure that this doesn't happen, to bind Mr. Beluga to purchase the knife, something which is valuable to Acme, Acme enters into a contract with Mr. Beluga. They get what they want, a guarantee that in the very near future this knife will be sold and out of their inventory even if another prospective buyer doesn't come along. And Mr. Mr. Beluga gets what he wants, a guarantee that they won't sell the knife within the next few days if another buyer does come along.

You see, there's risk on both sides. For Acme, the risk is that Mr. Beluga will change his mind and not purchase the knife and that, after he does this, no other buyer will come along for some potentially infinite amount of time. They risk having to carry this knife on their inventory forever. The fact that they were willing to enter into such a contract indicates that they perceive this risk.

Mr. Beluga, on the other hand, has just the opposite risk. For Mr. Beluga, the risk is that another buyer will come along and buy the knife before he's able to get his finances straighten out and that Acme will sell the knife to that other buyer. The fact that he asked for this contract indicates that he perceives this risk.

Both parties perceive risk, albeit different risks, but risks nonetheless. The contract mitigates the risk for both parties. Mitigating risk is generally seen as valuable. Therefore, mitigating risk can be a consideration in and of itself.

Mr. Beluga's promise of future performance, his promise to purchase the knife mitigated risk for Acme Cutlery. Mr. Beluga didn't have to do that. Therefore, that promise is valuable to Acme. Acme's promise to hold the knife for him mitigated risk for Mr. Beluga. Therefore, that promise is valuable to him. Both receive something of value. Is the value equal? It's hard to put a price on risk mitigation. The two parties seemed to, at the time, think it was a fair agreement. Both were willing to make it. If two parties, albeit bias parties, feel the value is equal, that's at least a sign that it is.

This type of contract (though usually written) is especially common in real estate and also sometimes seen in automobiles. A person sees a house they want. But, this potential buyer needs a few days to organize a mortgage. The potential buyer is afraid that the seller will sell the house to someone else before he can get that paperwork processed. The seller believes that the potential buyer will be able to secure financing. But, he's afraid that the potential buyer will change his mind before the loan is approved. So, they enter into the exact same agreement.

It doesn't even have to be so balanced. When I bought my first house, I was all pre-approved for my mortage and everything. I liked the place, but I wanted to think about it for a bit, "sleep on it," and get a couple of second opinions from some trusted friends. So, the seller and I entered into a written agreement in which they held the property for me for 48 hours basically in consideration of my promise to think about it. In that case, even my simple act of "thinking about it," has legal value. It's valuable to the seller to have a potential buyer seriously consider the house.

The problem we have in Mr. Beluga's case is that it's a verbal contract probably without any witnesses. So, it'd be very hard to enforce legally.

But, this is where what is legal and what is ethical diverge. The informal, verbal nature of the agreement may make it legally possible for Acme to break their agreement. But it's still not ethical for them to do so.

Sometimes, there is something higher and more important than the letter of the law. Sometimes (for some people, always), ethics, doing the right thing, is more important.
 
Whether or not, the company was within its rights, I think that they let a customer down. I have asked internet purveyors to hold a knife for me, and they told me they couldn't do it without a down payment of some kind, and I said okay. Others said that they would not do it at all. I said okay to that also. However, once you say you that you will hold a knife, you should hold it for the time agreed to and maybe contact the customer if time is running short. I believe that these companies have the time for that type of service. Afterall, we are talking custom knives, even a low-end custom folder is a significant investment to me, and if I we in business, I think that i would seek out a known customer to see if they were prepared to buy the knife that they asked about before letting some one else get it if I had promised to hold it. Just my opinion folks.
 
Beluga, Chuck has some good points for consideration. I would email the company back in response to their last email and in a most respectful manner just inform them that you're dissapointed in how they let things play out. If they apologize or give acceptable reason to their decision, that's fine, albiet if they respond back to you in a disrespectful manner and blow you off, discontinue business with them and treat them to a little write up in the 'good, bad, and ugly' forum here.

Best of luck! And its too bad you didn't get the knife you want, I hope you find it elsewhere. :)
 
How many people work at this company? Not defending the company but if there was one guy, it is possible that he/she simply forgot that he/she promised to hold the knife. If there was more than one, it is possible that one hand forgot to tell the other hand what was going on (how many instances can you remember where communications should have been better in your own work places?).

Was this a one of a kind knife or otherwise super special in some way? If not, then just get over it. It's not worth getting worked up about...
 
Originally posted by Gollnick
The consideration is a promise to perform (i.e. to pay) in the future.
The problem we have in Mr. Beluga's case is that it's a verbal contract probably without any witnesses. So, it'd be very hard to enforce legally.
Which is where the UCC code becomes very clear. No consideration is valid without some form of tangible proof. A verbal promise to pay does not qualify as consideration under UCC code. It's an intangible, even if the transaction was witnessed.

As I said, any communication other than the phone call would have allowed him to have some recourse, and sealed the contract for purchase. Since he is the one that has accepted the offer, it is his responsibility to fulfill the payment requirements as dicated by the seller. At no time is the promise to "hold" the knife a condition of that offer. It is in fact an additonal good faith consideration extended to him by the seller, and holds no bearing to the conditions of the original agreement. The fact that Mr. Jurianto violated the original agreement by his inability to pay demonstrates further good faith upon the seller.

All this is within the seller's legal right. Is it morally acceptable? No. Is it unethical? To an extent. Is it a violation of a broken contract? No.
 
Maybe I'm missing something here, but isn't the answer quite simple? The emails seemed to be working OK, so the dealer should have sent a "courtesy" email to the customer with the knife "on hold" advising him that someone else was interested in it - BEFORE he sold it to the other party. Receiving an email after the fact advising me that "the knife has BEEN sold" would certainly tick me off a little bit.

If this dealer has been good to deal with, I would continue to deal with them. I just wouldn't put much faith in future promises they make.
 
I'm in retail and when I tell someone that I will hold something for them for 2 days, I will hold it for 3 and then call the person and ask if they were still planning on purchasing the item. What was done here was just plain wrong.
 
Well, Tony, as much as I am well aware of how much you seem to enjoy arguing with me, I really don't enjoy arguing with you and don't intend to.

A promise of future performance can be a consideration. It's called "faith and credit." Contracts based on this are made and enforced all the time.

In fact, I lost a considreable sum in one last year. :( Oh well, in this economy, I don't think I'm alone. Several of the other investors who lost tried to sue for non-performance... non-performance of a promise of future performance for which there was no tangible consideration. Personally, I looked at the situation and said, "While the lawyers think we could win, the fact remains that you can't draw water from an empty well and there's no use throwing good money after bad." The case collapsed when the non-performing party declared bankruptcy.
 
Back
Top