How should I feel about this ?

Hi all,

Thanks for your insights into this matter. This is just an update of the situation. I just read a reply of my email from the dealer. He said that he had found someone who was prepare to pay the knife. He admitted that I was not contacted before the knife was sold (which I believe I ought to).
 
Originally posted by Gollnick
A promise of future performance can be a consideration. It's called "faith and credit." Contracts based on this are made and enforced all the time.
Chuck, I really don't enjoy arguing with you. Because when it happens it's usually because I disagree with the "facts" you are representing. This is a good example. It can be consideration if it is part of fulfilling the contract. It can not be the ONLY consideration. Big difference. Especially when it is verbal.
In fact, I lost a considreable sum in one last year. :( Several of the other investors who lost tried to sue for non-performance... non-performance of a promise of future performance for which there was no tangible consideration. Personally, I looked at the situation and said, "While the lawyers think we could win, the fact remains that you can't draw water from an empty well and there's no use throwing good money after bad." The case collapsed when the non-performing party declared bankruptcy.
I'm confused. Your statement seems to indicate you agree with my position. You felt you didn't have a case. And your example is flawed in that the loss of your revenue is not the result of the broken contract, but of the bankruptcy protection of the firm. As an aside, the fact that you had money to lose is the very consideration you are trying to demonstrate. You had given tangible consideration, your money, and therefore had validated the contract. Consideration needs only to be given by one party of the contract. The lawyers were correct in the assertion that the case could have been won.

In this example, there was no tangible consideration given by either party, and your example does not apply.
 
Based on your side of the story, I would never do business with this dealer again.
 
Originally posted by tonyccw
As mentioned above, his past history as a customer isn't something an internet store will keep in mind. And given the opportunity for the store to do the right thing and risk losing a firm sale, I can't fault them for doing what they did. This is strictly a case of "you snooze, you lose". No matter how unforunate the circumstances that surrounded his inability to purchase the knife outright.

While I agree with with most of what you said in your post, this definitly doesnt agree with me. I am having a problem with a knife I got friday morning from a online type dealer. This is the exact e-mail I received back from him a few hours later.....



Sorry to hear about the MOD. Something doesn’t seem right with that particular knife. I have held the CQD and really liked it. The size, feel and action were all good. Returning the knife will not be a problem. I will get back with you on Monday with the return authorization number and address for which warehouse to send it back to. You are a very good customer and I will provide a 100% refund (Including Shipping Cost) and pay your return shipping cost. We did get some Socom in, but don’t remember which model you were interested in. If you provide me with that information I will give you its availability. Again thank you for your continued business.



Sincerely,

Chip Pittman

The Knife Connection



Does this e-mail not scream customer service? The only thing the company Beluga dealt with did by selling that knife was prove how good they are at not making customers... We dont need to bring up legal action and contracts and whatnot. Nobody is gunna sue someone for selling a custom knife that had no money on it as collateral. Its just plain @$$hole to sell it off..
 
I also have 5 or 6 online vendors (from one-man shops to large retailers) that I deal with on a regular basis. If each of them didn't give me the greatest customer service, a competitor would be just a mouse-click away!

In our online community, emails are the equivalent of dealing with someone "face-to-face". If the seller had a cash buyer for the knife that was "on hold", all he had to do was fire off a quick email to the original buyer advising him of that fact and requesting "action". Why didn't he do that?
 
Originally posted by Aniketos
While I agree with with most of what you said in your post, this definitly doesnt agree with me.

Does this e-mail not scream customer service? The only thing the company Beluga dealt with did by selling that knife was prove how good they are at not making customers... We dont need to bring up legal action and contracts and whatnot. Nobody is gunna sue someone for selling a custom knife that had no money on it as collateral. Its just plain @$$hole to sell it off..
OK, you've brought up several good points. Firstly, your example of customer service and this one has one huge difference. You already executed a valid contract, and the seller is under pressure to meet your concerns, because selling a defective items is grounds for voiding the contract. Contract in this case being you buying the knife. So it's in their vested interest to make sure you are satisfied within the conditions of the sale.

As for the legal issues, it was brought up by Chuck, and I was merely disagreeing with Chuck on how the UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) would treat this situation. And the purpose was to point out that what the seller did is within the rules of UCC. Why does that matter? Because UCC is how every business conducts business in the USA. As small scale as you giving the guy at the newsstand $0.50 for the paper, to multi-million dollar deals. This was a business transaction.

I'm not arguing he has every right to feel he's been slighted by having the knife sold while under the impression he had a "deal". I'm just trying to explain that a "deal" has many interpertations. If you place customer service above all other factors (such as price, availability, reputation), then you make the judgement call as to how, and if, you would want to deal with that seller again. My experiences from buying custom knives, which has fewer available units per model for sale, this type of thing happens quite frequently. And I generally hold no grudge against the seller. Someone else had the means to pay, while I didn't. If it was for a production knife, and this happened, I'll probably reconsider if I would do business with that person again.
 
Originally posted by cockroachfarm
In our online community, emails are the equivalent of dealing with someone "face-to-face". If the seller had a cash buyer for the knife that was "on hold", all he had to do was fire off a quick email to the original buyer advising him of that fact and requesting "action". Why didn't he do that?
Agreed. That would have been the courteous thing to do. But courtesy isn't necessary with doing business. There are many reasons why they did not do that. As someone said, could have been a big store, and due to some lack of communications, someone missed the message the knife was on hold. Maybe they the buyer was a much bigger customer and pissing him off would be the greater evil. Point is we don't all know all the facts, we're only hearing one side of the story.

But Mr. Jurianto could have easily done more to secure the knife than simply emailing them and asking them to hold the knife. The store could have read that as needing a few more days to reconsider. If he had flatly stated in his email that he's arranging payment (in my previous example, I showed several way to accomplish this), the deal would have been closed, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Because that email, in that language, would have been considered a written intent to pay, legally obligated him to comeup with payment. Instead, he merely implied it using the excuse he lost his debit card. It's all a matter of clearer communications. I just didn't think he wanted the knife badly enough by his actions.
 
Several months ago, I read an interesting article. The author asserted that our modern messaging technology was hurting business. In the old days, if one executive wanted to make an agreement with another, he'd draft a letter, call in his stenographer and dictate it. The stenographer would read it back. The executive might correct some things right there as he heard it read back. Then, a typist would type it up. The executive would read it again and make corrections and changes and it would be retyped and rereviewed. Before it was sent, the executive and his staff would, over the course of a day or even two, review that letter three or more times.

And when that letter was received by the second executive, he'd read it, formulate his response, and then call in his stenographer and the whole process would be repeated.

It was a slow process, yes, but it was a thoughtfull and considered process.

Today, the first executive will IM the second who will receive the message on his Blackberry while riding from the third green to the forth tee. He'll give the inquiry all of five seconds of thought and thumb-typing out a response before taking his tee shot.

I see a similar affect at work on the forum a lot. One person posts and another posts a response just minutes later.

So, while I'm not going to hire a stenographer (I don't know if you can even get one anymore), I have resolved to be more thoughtful.


And thus it was that when I re-read this thread this morning, I realized the problem.

The problem is the word Tangible.

There is a story told of a factory owner who was well-known as a bit of a tightwad. His factory centered around a major machine that did most of the work. One day, that machine broke. None of factory people could figure out how to fix it. So, the owner reluctantly called in a expert.

The expert arrived, spent a few minutes looking over the machine. Then, the expert opened his tool box, selected his hammer, and banged the machine exactly once. The machine sprang to life and resumed operation.

The owner was delighted, "That's wonderful! You've fixed! Thank you, thank you."

"My bill, sir."

"Bill?"

"Yes. I fixed your machine."

"Ten Thousand Dollars! All you did was hit it with a hammer. I'm not going to pay you $10,000 for that."

"Oh, it's only one dollar for hitting the machine with the hammer... the other $9999 are for KNOWING where to hit it."

The hitting is tangible. The knowing where to hit it is intangible... but still billable.



As I understand it, my friend Tonyccw works in the financial industry buying and selling tangible things. In his industry and in his experience, Tony is entirely correct. There must be a tangible consideration.

I've spent a lot of time working in a different industry, an industry full of intangible things, full of ideas, thoughts, styles, creativity, imagination. One of the companies I've worked with in the past is called "Pure Imagination." They sell imagination. Some may ask, "How do you buy and sell imagination? Does it come by the foot, the gallon, or the pound?" Is it shrink-wrapped or does it come in bulk?" It's intangible. How can you buy and sell it?

Ideas, thoughts, styles, creativity, and imagination are not finished goods. They are raw materials. They're the grist that's fed into a mill called "Design." The Design Mill takes these ideas, thoughts, styles, creativity and imagination, and processes them and assembles them and transformes them into drawings, assembly instructions, tools, dies, templates, tapes, formulas, and patents, trademarks, and copyrights.

But even those things, while more tangible, still aren't finished goods. They're an intermediate product. They're just grist for another mill called "Manufacturing." It's the manufacturing mill that turns out the physical product that most people are familiar with and that the UCC focuses on the trading in.

Me? My interest and labor has been this whole process of getting those intangible ideas, that imagination, into physical products. The design and the manufacturing processes combined, I call the combination, "product realization."

Welcome to my world, a world of thoughts and ideas and styles and drawings and instructions and forumulas and tools and dies... and sometimes a certain amount of magic.

It is the finished product where folks like Tony enter the picture and where the UCC focuses.

Don't be surprised, though, if lawyers have figured out structures for trading less tangible goods too. Those structures can apply more broadly.






Consider, for example, a contract for a custom knife. You pay the maker $500. That's a tangible consideration. But what does the maker give you? A promise to deliver the knife at some future time. Legally, that's a promise of future performance and it's not very tangible.

What makes it valuable and, therefore usable as a consideration in a contract, is called "Faith and credit." The buyer needs to have faith, and the maker needs to have credit.

Let's say that some stranger who has never made a knife walks up to you and says, "For $500, I'll make you a custom knife." Does that promise have any credit? You don't who this guy is. He's never made a knife. He doesn't know how. He has no tools, no shop. Therefore, his promise to make a knife is not credible. It has no credit.

But let's say that Alan Blade makes the offer. He has a demonstrated ability to make knives. He has a shop. His promise is credible. But do you have faith in it? He has a history of promising knives and not delivering. There is credit, but there is no faith.

Now, let's say that Darrel Ralph makes the same offer. He also has credit. But he also has a long history of completing hundreds of knives for hundreds of customers. There is reason for you to have faith in his promise.

When there is faith and there is credit, there is legal value in a promise of future performance. That value, legal though intangible, can become a consideration in a contract.

In the case of my recent ill-fated transaction, I and some friends scraped together some money and gave it to a man who promised in return to complete a project for us. He has the necessary credentials to complete such a project and he's done similar projects in the past. So, he had credit and we had faith. His promise of future performance had value and became the consideration in our contract. "In consideration of $X received from Chuck and Co., Mr. Y promises to complete the project as defined." He didn't fulfill his promise. Even though the consideration is intangible, the contract is valid. The lawyers told me so and I'm not going to question them. I believe he broke his contract and we could sue him for it and that the court would find in our favor. That's what I'm told. I elected not to persue the situation not because I didn't feel that that was true, but because I didn't think that even if we won, we'd ever get anything. As I said, "you can't draw water from an empty well."

You might protest, then, "Wasn't the original contract unbalanced? You lost your money, something tangible and obviously valuable, and he lost -- what? -- nothing." Ah, but he did loose something -- something of great value. He lost faith and credibility. He has worked over years to build up and create that faith and credibility. It has been what he has made his living based on. It is the tool of his trade. And now he will not be able to enter into such a contract again. If he wants to continue, he'll have to work hard and accept less favorable deals in order to rebuild that faith and credit.

By the way, I don't think that the project failed entirely because of him. He made a few mistakes, but they were largely in misreading this economy of our's. And who hasn't done that lately?






Let's look again at my more specific example: a contract that I entered into years ago when I bought a house. The seller agreed to hold the house for 48 hours and I agreed to seriously consider purchasing it. As I previously explained, the benefit to both parties was risk mitigation. But what about faith and credibility. The seller offered as consideration a promise of future performance, to not sell the property to someone else for 48 hours. Was that promise credible? Well, the seller owned the property and was in full control of the decision to sell or not sell it. So, yes, that was a credible promise. But could I have reasonable faith (faith based in reason, one of my favorite legal contradictions) that he would, in fact, perform? I'd never met him. Ah, but he was represented by a licensed real estate agent. The agent's good professional reputation and his license gave me reason to have faith in his client's promise of future performance.

On the other side of the table, in consideration of that promise of future performance, I offered a promise of future performance of my own. I promised to seriously consider purchasing the property. Was my promise credible? Well, I was pre-approved for a mortgage well in excess of the price of the house. I am the decision maker in that matter, and I can certainly think. So, my promise had credibility. But could the seller have faith in it? They'd never met me and this was my first house purchase. But the bank's approval of me and my agent's professional reputation and license gave them reason to have faith.

So, both promised have faith and credit. Both promises have value. We believe that the value is approximately equal. And so a contract was made, a contract involving no tangible value, but a contract nonetheless. Had they sold the house to someone else during those 48 hours, I could have sued them for non-performance.






Now, let's take a fresh look at the case in question in this thread. As I previously explained, Mr. Beluga entered a contract with this dealer. In both cases, the consideration was an intangible: risk mitigation. The dealer promised not to sell the knife for a time. And Mr. Beluga promised to buy the knife within that time. Those were both promised of future performance. So, their value, if any comes from faith and credit.

Was the dealer's promise not to sell the knife credible? Yes. He had control of the knife. He could sell it or not. Did Mr. Beluga have a reason to have faith in that promise? Yes. He's had successful transactions with this dealer in the past. The dealer has a good reputation. That's enough. The dealer's promise has credibility and Mr. Beluga had reason to have faith in it.

Was Mr. Beluga's promise to buy the knife credible? At face value, yes. He claimed to basically have the money and just need to get issues resolved with his bank. That's credible. And did the dealer have reason to have faith in Mr. Beluga's promise? Well, he's bought knives from them without problems in the past. So, yes. Mr. Beluga's promise had credibility and the dealer had reason to have faith in it.

So, we have a contract in which both parties receive an intangible benefit, risk mitigation, and in which both parties offer an intangible consideration, a promise of future performance.

But, both parties seem to believe that the proposed benefits have value for them. That's important in a contract.

Both considerations are promises of future performance, but both have faith and credit and, therefore, value.

Benefits of value are exchanged for considerations of value. That's what contracts are about.

Are the values equal? Well, that's hard to say. But, both parties seemed to think so. Both parties have some expert experience in the matter of knife trading. One is a professional dealer. So, it's reasonable to think that they are.

As a result, we have a valid contract even though it doesn't include anything tangible.




And the real conclusion of all of this is that once you stop and think about it instead of just thumb-typing off a hasty response before making your next tee shot, you realize that Tony and I are simply talking across eachother.
 
Hey Fellas

We try to provide the very best customer service in the catalog and internet business, but it is hard to be perfect and I think you should cut this dealer, whoever he is, some slack. The customer says that he has bought from the dealer before, but not how often or for what amounts, he does not say if he was dealing with the owner or with an employee. There are lots of unknown answeres to unasked questions and everybody seems ready to put this unknown dealer out of business.

Yes, I personally would have called the customer and said that I had a buyer and I would speak harshly to one of my CS people who did not BUT not every dealer has my resorces. Please think about easing up. all the best, A. G.
 
I certainly don't think that this is something that should warrant trying to put a company out of business, but I do believe the dealer owes an apology. The dealer screwed the pooch on this one and should be willing to own up to that.


*Edited to correct my poor spelling.
 
There is a story told of a factory owner who was well-known as a bit of a tightwad. His factory centered around a major machine that did most of the work. One day, that machine broke. None of factory people could figure out how to fix it. So, the owner reluctantly called in a expert.

The expert arrived, spent a few minutes looking over the machine. Then, the expert opened his tool box, selected his hammer, and banged the machine exactly once. The machine sprang to life and resumed operation.

The owner was delighted, "That's wonderful! You've fixed! Thank you, thank you."
"My bill, sir."

"Bill?"

"Yes. I fixed your machine."

"Ten Thousand Dollars! All you did was hit it with a hammer. I'm not going to pay you $10,000 for that."

"Oh, it's only one dollar for hitting the machine with the hammer... the other $9999 are for KNOWING where to hit it."

The hitting is tangible. The knowing where to hit it is intangible... but still billable.

Reminds me of a story told by my late friend Eric Sloane, a great artist and meteroligist. He was asked to paint a mural on the walls of the outer office of one of the major airlines, this was in the days when airlines had money. Eric went into the office used about $5 worth of paint to paint the most reallistic clouds you ever saw and a tiny airplane, took him a day and he billed the airline $25,000, a huge sume for the times and the president of the airline screamed like a goosed moose. "you only took a few hours" Eric replied, as did your mechanic, "It is not the amount of paint, it is knowing where to put it" the airline paid. Chuck I think you miss the point, the tangible part is the service, the machine ran, it was fixed. What is tangible in thinking about buying something? What ernest money was put up?

all the best, A. G.
 
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