How to attach scales?

K

Ken Cox

Moderator
Joined
Dec 11, 1998
Messages
15,923
Thanks to the encouragement I have received in this forum regarding hand-filing a blade (especially from Barry and Phillip Jones), I ordered my steel from Admiral.
I have my design on CAD and, in order to make this first effort a little less intimidating, I have decided to go ahead with having the blade water-jet cut here in town.
My big question now has to do with how to attach the scales to the grip.

The blade has a full tang, and I tentatively plan on using black micarta scales.
Multiple pins sound like a natural, but also seem technically difficult to me, at this point.
I have seen allen headed screws used to hold scales on a tang.
They look good and, not knowing any more about it than I do, they seem technically easier than epoxy and pins.
Pros and Cons?
Where does one get appropriate screws, and do they mate to each other through the tang, or...?
I remain very open to alternative materials and attachment methods.
Many thanks.

------------------
Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom

 
Ken,

I like using 15 minute epoxy to fasten my scales. If you are open to other material, try some of the "fancy" woods that are availible. I really like using the splated maples. Another idea is to seal the pores of the wood with "super glue" Put it on in thin coats, and buff out between coats with extra fine steel wool.

Rick
 
Ken,
One of the simplest ways is to use screws. 4x40 or 6x40 in button or pan head work well.
Drill and tap the blade, drill the handle material and countersink fot the head. Each screw will go in half way.
Let me know if you need any more info.
 
If you are going to use Micarta I would suggest you use Corby Screws from Jantz Supply or Texas Knifemaker's Black and Decker has some new Drill bit's out that work great for them just drill 3/16 holes where you want your pins(Bolt'S) to go through then clamp one side to the tang then re-drill the holes through the handle mat do the same on the other side and bolt them togather

------------------
TbarK Custom Knives
I am Opposed to Millionair's but it would be Dangerous to Offer Me The Job,Mark Twain
http://vip.hpnc.com/~tbark
 
pins are an easy way to go, those bolts are easier, but buy a counterboring tool, yes i said counterboring, not counter sinking. first things first, drill appropriate size holes in the tang (before heat treating), and rob simonich says it realeases stesses of you counterSINK those holes with a larger size drill bit. make a rough out shape of your handles into the scales and cut them out, leave alot of extra space (screw-up room). now if your going to round the top edge on your scales do that now, that is the only shaping that should be done at this point. make sure you do the rounding on the correct side of the scale or your gonna end up with 2 rights or 2 lefts. now use 30min epoxy to glue ONE scale on one side (use plenty of epoxy). after that has cured drill holes according to what type of securing device you want, using the tang holes as a template. next glue your other scale on. once that has cured drill the holes for the handle bolts or rivets, using the previously drilled holes as templets. if your using pins, put epoxy one the pins, and place them in the holes, with some excess pinning material on both sides so you can peen them, if your going to. if your using bolts, counterBORE the nessecary depth for the bolts into your handles, don't go too deep or you'll hit the handles. use some loktite on the bolts and bolt them together. at this point, if your using pins peen them, don't peen to much(that's only if you want to peen them, sometimes guys just like to epoxy them in). then grind everything flush. grind your pins, or bolts down to the handle so they're flush, and grind the edges so they're flush. you're going to be very proud of yourself now, becuase you can already tell how the knife is going to turn out. sorry, i added blurps about bolts, but this should be easy to figure out, if you have questions just e-mail me.
 
I have found using 2 or 3 pins and epoxy to be the easiest way. You need to be able to drill holes through the tang at pretty close to exactly 90 degrees, and then through the tang into one scale, and then through that scale and the tang into the other scale. But, you have to do this for all the other types of fasteners also, plus aditional steps. I used the 24 hour epoxy at first, then went to Acraglass rifle bedding compound after I heard that others had problems with standard epoxy breaking down over time.

James
 
The different perspectives, styles and methods presented here provide so much more context and edification than reading about this in a "how-to" book.
The sense of community also puts the courage in the word encouragement.
Thanks.

What diameter pilot hole does one drill (in my case, cut with a water-jet) for 6X40 or 4X40 screws, and does one tap the holes before or after heat treatment?

I understand that the steel must have some roughness in order for epoxy to get a purchase on the surface.
If I polish the steel surface, would the epoxy in the pin holes, between pins and scales, suffice to hold the scales on?

Also, how does one peen pins?

If one relies primarily on the pins, I would think many small diameter pins would hold better than a few large diameter pins.
I could have that wrong.
Fewer pins sound like less work.

Finally, disregarding aesthetics, do any pin materials have an advantage over others?

Many thanks.


------------------
Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom

 
Ken,
It's better to drill the holes for the screws after the blade is cut. You can have other holes cut for balance and weight reduction, though.
Holes will have to be tapped before heat treat.
Usually you can look in most hardware/home centers and pick up a tap and drill. The tap will specify what size hole is needed.

Screws will allow you to take the handles on and off. You can still use an epoxy during the final fit.

 
As far as pin material, I can't think of any intrinsic advantages to say, brass over nickle silver over stainless steel. I tend to use 3/32 or 1/8 inch welding rod in whatever material matches the bolsters/guards. (hint here, mike your pin stock and get a drill bit a couple of thousandth larger. Driving a 3/32 pin into a 3/32 hole will split the wood about 25%of the time.)

I intentionally grind a rough concave surface into the tang of my knife, and the inside of the scales to allow the epoxy a place to collect and some texture to adhere to. I would think that polishing the sides of the tang before assembly would seriously compromise the epoxy bond, and that the pins wouldn't keep the scales attached for long (but I could be wrong).

To pein pins, cut them off about 1/8 inch from the surface, place on an anvil or other solid surface and use the round end of a ball pein hammer to slowly flatten the pin. Get one side about halfway done, then turn over and do the other end of the same pin. If I'm attaching bolsters with pins, I pretty much pound the heck out of them. For pins in wood, I usually either do very little or no peining to avoid splitting my slabs.

A hint; when you grind the pins flush with your slab material, go slow and let the pin cool frequently. Not much looks tackier than that black ring of burned wood around the pins caused by grinding too fast.

James

------------------
I love my country! I just don't trust my government!

[This message has been edited by T. J. (edited 01-07-2000).]
 
If you have a Lowes near you go there. They sell Stainless Steel screws in different sizes and threading for dirt cheap. They also have taps that come with the necessary drill bit for the pilot hole.
If you plan on using pins, they have brass rod in different sizes also.Hope this helps.

------------------
Fix it right the first time, use Baling Wire !
 
If you have a Lowes near you go there. They sell Stainless Steel screws in different sizes and threading for dirt cheap. They also have taps that come with the necessary drill bit for the pilot hole.
If you plan on using pins, they have brass rod in different sizes also.Hope this helps.

------------------
Fix it right the first time, use Baling Wire !
 
Like TJ said, Be care if peening wood handles, they can split very easily, espically some of the exotic hardwoods, of course the most expensive ones are the easiest to break.
 
What about peening pins with no epoxy or acraglas as a fastener?
That way, if it goes poorly, I could start over without having to contend with the complications of the epoxy.
Can pins alone satisfactorily hold slabs on steel?
Would it help to chamfer the holes in the wood?
Would larger diameter pins, such as 1/8", peen more easily and does material, such as nickel silver/brass/SS matter in terms of workability?
Would a plasitcized wood such as Dymondwood resist splitting better than a natural wood?

Questions, questions, questions...

I wonder if the quest in questions has something to do with seeking.

Again, many thanks.
I have all my tools and materials except for the handle slabs and pins.
I will make those purchases as soon as I have a better understanding of the materials.

------------------
Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom

 
Well,

I have never seen a full tang knife without glue, and don't think it would work very well. (I have been wrong before though)

Chamfering the holes in the wood is a good ideal, and helps keep things tighter, but not enough to go without epoxy, IMHO.

There is a trick for getting epoxied scales off of a knife easily. Knock the pins out. Lay the handle spine down on a block of dry ice for a half hour or so to chill the epoxy, and then hold the tip of the blade amd whack the slab with a block of wood at the ricasso. It will usually pop right off.

As far as dymondwood, it is hard and doesn't shrink, but it's one drawback is that it is quite brittle and prone to crack when you pin it. (been there, done that) So, no, it's worse than most woods, not better.

As for pin materials, it's a trade off, just like everything else. Stainless steel pins are harder to work with, but don't usually tarnish. Nickle silver is expensive, and unless you get Monel welding rod, it tends to turn grey over time, but it's easy to work, and tends to sell better than brass. Brass is nice and soft to work with, but it tarnishes if you leave it in contact with leather ( and sometimes if you don't)

If I was doing my first blade again now, I'd go with 3/32 brass pins and a piece of stabilized wood from K&G. (800-972-1192)



------------------
I love my country! I just don't trust my government!
 
i buy exotics, there naturally stable. you can pin them, usually they won't crack, but i oversize the holes to be sure.
 
I tried putting slabs on a paring knife once without epoxy. I used 3,1/8" brass pins. They held, but the wood has bowed some and its really ruined the fit of the slabs to the tang. I'm going to be redoing that knife soon
frown.gif
The pins stayed pretty tight, but I was using a piece of cherry that was almost 3/8" thick and I could peen the pins alot without it splitting. I think you would be a lot better off if you used epoxy. It should make you first try a lot easier because it will hold everything in place for you exactly where you want it. If things get messed up, and you can't get some dry ice to try, you can just soak the handle in WD40 or epoxy/laquer thinner until the slabs fall off. This is pretty messy but it should make easy work of cleaning the tang up for more epoxy and new scales too.

------------------
Fix it right the first time, use Baling Wire !
 
Ken: it seems some great guys have offered good advice about attachment here..I've learned a lot buy just reading their posts in response to yours.....just my 2 cents from a NEW (metal anyway .have been grinding these nonmetalics for some time as a great way to learn a little about grinding)knifemaker..I have found that you shouldn't use just peening pins without epoxy and have tried TJ's mentioning of the method of hollow grinding (that was posted here before) and found that it does create a great reserve for epoxy to take hold....with out epoxy the scales may slip if u subject them to a lot of abouse (as you should before you offer one for sale....I HOPE to put pics of a metal one on my site soon for the pros to pick apart with advice)......good luck!

------------------
Nonmetalic G-10&CarbonFiber Knives:http://www.geocities.com/bladewiz/bladewiz.html
 
A few questions on peening:

I wondered how to keep the pin from drifting in the hole during peening; how to back it up so it wouldn't drift, and then it occurred to me that the epoxy might hold the pin in place during peening.
Do I have that right?

How much pin should I leave sticking up out of the scale prior to peening?


------------------
Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom

 
Leave about one pin diameter sticking up before peining. As for what keeps it from moving while your pounding on it, you have to do it on an anvil, heavy vice, block of steel or something of that ilk so that you can put one end of the pin on something immoveable while you tap on the other end. Remember, in a wood or micarta handle you are only trying to swell the pin a little bit in it's hole and mushroom the top out a little bit before you grind it off flush with the handle material. Too much and you will split your material, not enough and about the worst thing that will happen is you will see a little epoxy around the pin after you grind it.

------------------
I love my country! I just don't trust my government!
 
use a medium sized ball peen hammer, and for the mushrooming use the round side, to finish it up use the flat side.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top