How to get the most out of salvaged and recycled steels

Here’s a good example:

I just did a spark comparison test against 3 hand plane blades and one marked drop of D2. Take this for whatever it’s worth…. It’s just one test and not conclusive by any means.

The three hand plane blades threw sparks further from the wheel than the D2 drop. This almost always indicates a lower carbon content…. throwing sparks further. When they die out closer to the wheel it generally, (maybe always), indicates that the carbon content is higher. In every other respect the sparks were similar. So, from this one test, I’d conclude that the “ 3 hand plane blades” I tested were similar to the “D2 drop“, with a slightly lower carbon content.
 
Years ago we couldget scrap from the Nicholsen plant in Alabama and they sid the scrap files were 1095 at tht time,so I liked using them and heat treated as such,if yu get a off brand file you may just be getting a case harened piece of steel and it isnt anygood for a knife...

Bruce

From Wayne Goddard correspondense: Cut the tip off the file and etch it (can use boiling vinegar). If it is case hardened, there will be a distinct dark band (narrow, like 0.010" - 0.020") around the surface edge with a lighter center area.

Also, Nicholson has said in recent times to HT their rasps like they were 1095 and HT their files like they were W1.

Though historically there were a lot of different carbon levels in the W1 range (I've got some old 1.20% C W1 ~ the historical range was 0.070% C to 1.50% C with Cr, W, V in there sometimes), it seems to have evolved to 1.00% C. Most 1095 is closer to 0.90% C. The other difference (slight) between the two in these times is the amount of manganese with 1095 0.030% to 0.050% and W1 0.10% to 0.40%, which is not much looking at it but a lot of W1 is 0.25% Mn and 1095 0.40%-0.50% Mn.

Yeah, I know... not in the true spirit of "found steel" but I'm a steel snob... I just really like the stuff and like thinking about the differences a little of this or that makes, or rather, may make.

Mike
 
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I just did some quick Googling on M2 and D2 steels chemical analysis and what I came up with was,... sure enough!,... they are very similar, except D2 does have slightly more carbon. I'd say the 3 hand plane blades I tested were M2 not D2,... just judging by some quick spark testing and a little easy research. :)

For what ever it's worth...
 
I've been thinking about this thread for a while. I think, no matter where it goes from here, it ought to be a "sticky" (Tai's posts, #13 & #15, are classics) and I think anyone who feels they want to help those starting and those interested in "found, salvaged,recycled steels" ought to have it bookmarked so everytime a person needs reference, they can be sent the link... 'cause "stickies" don't work for everyone.

Mike
 
I use a soft and small flame, and it takes a fair amount of time to do it, so maybe I'm just reaching a high enough temperature for long enough. This could be one of those cases as with the triple quenching- not REALLY needed, or more like oven tempering, where a single long soak sometimes will do what 3 shorter soaks will do.

I'm definitely gonna see.

Of course, then there's (cue evil music and big fat reverb) ZONE tempering.

"Too much" time would be better than "too little" time...

Mike
 
sweet! finally! i was hoping someone would put some info on salvaged steels here! i have a bunch and have done a little spark testing, now need to go through and do some hardening tests. on a side note the place i work has an XRF (X-ray flourescence)machine and has offered to test my metals, but cannot see elements smaller than silicon, so i am going to have to figure the carbon content the old fashioned way!
thank you Tai and all for your inputs here!!
peace
jt




http://jtknives.blogspot.com/
 
I had posted this over in Kevin's "steel snob" thread and it was suggested it might fit here too, so I'm going to quote myself here.

As a way to test my knowledge of process, I made a large test blade from an old spring harrow tooth a while back. All I knew of this steel was that it had been a spring harrow tooth of unknown, but old origin and that the gentleman who had used the harrow (who donated the teeth) had personally seen them go almost completely straight being caught on a root and then snap back to shape. In the interest of adding my $.02 to this thread, I'll relate from my experience rather than directly answer Kevin's questions. I think that I can provide more useful information this way. It's just a more effective method of communication for me. Here's how I did it:

  • I forged the curved tooth into a flat bar
  • I cut off a small piece, heated it to a bright orange and quenched in cold water. (This is useless other than I have found it is a reliable way to tell if something will harden at all.)
  • I then clamped this piece in a vise and whacked it with a hammer. It snapped cleanly. Good sign #1.
  • I then examined the fracture to see what the grain looked like after a violent quench from an overly high temp. If the grain hasn't grown terribly, I take this as a sign that the steel might contain some alloy to help retard grain growth such as Vanadium. Not terribly scientific, but we're not discussing pure science here... In this particular case, the grain was pretty large.
  • At this point I forged out the blade. I knew I had something to work with, just wasn't certain exactly what it was.
  • After forging, I brought the blade to a little above non-magnetic and allowed it to cool in still air. This was repeated for a total of 3 cycles. During this, I looked for (and found!) something very important. I was able to observe decalescence/recalescence. This is something that I'm surprised I haven't seen mentioned in this thread so far. The transition point was very obvious with this particular steel and I made certain to make a mental note of the color of the steel at the point of decalescence.
  • I then heated the blade as evenly as possible to the color I made a note of before. Then I went just a TOUCH higher.
  • I quenched in Parks #50. I used this oil for a few reasons. One, I had it available. Two, water had not caused the steel to ping before, so I knew a fast quench was a safe bet.
  • File test time. Yes, I know this teaches us little, but it's a habit I picked up from my early teachers. It has told me on a few occasions when a quench did not work, so I keep doing it.
  • I tempered initially at 400F, twice for 60 minutes each.
  • I "blued" the tang, ricasso, and spine with a MAPP torch 3 times.
  • Finished the blade out roughly. It was just a test knife, so I made it comfy, not good looking. I took it as an opportunity to test the quality of my standard hidden tang construction. The knife was assembled with no epoxy, only the pin to hold it all together.

I then proceeded to use this knife for everything around the yard. I hacked through trees and bushes that needed trimming rather than using a pruner. I observed the edge condition regularly, resharpened as necessary, and slightly reground the profile as I continued to learn about blade geometry. I hacked through 2x4s in the shop, I used it as a small spade to plant some mint in the yard, in rocky soil, etc, etc, etc. I learned something from every test. The handle loosened up a good bit, but the knife was still quite usable.

The last time I visited J. Neilson's shop, I figured it was about time to test this knife all the way. First, I made a few attempts at cutting a free hanging rope. From this, I learned that I need practice cutting rope :) Had I had some more practice, I'm certain that I wouldn't have left that last piece hanging by a thread. Second, we grabbed a 4x4 hardwood barn beam and I proceeded to hack that to bits. It ALMOST shaved hair after that. I felt confident that had I been chopping 2x4s it still would have. Then we went to the vise. J. was just about to open his mouth to tell me I'd hit 90 degrees when the blade finally snapped. The rest of the blade only took about a 15 degree set.

-d
 
also if there was a photo of a whole range of steels that had all been etched in ferric for 1 minute you could compare with this and eliminate a few types of steel.eg etches dark,its definatly not l6 or 15n20.
i think with a range of tests you can get pretty close to what steel you have.
 
This is a great thread. I can see it is going to have a lot of great information in it on how to ID steels and convert mystery steels in to known useful knife steels. Thanks. jim
 
also if there was a photo of a whole range of steels that had all been etched in ferric for 1 minute you could compare with this and eliminate a few types of steel.eg etches dark,its definatly not l6 or 15n20.
i think with a range of tests you can get pretty close to what steel you have.

Except for the fact that surface oxides can fool you sometimes here. Also, if you've got a darker etch, it could be 1070, 1095, 1084, O-1, W-1, etc. Some of these are shallow hardening, while others are deep hardening due to Mn content, etc. You can tell some of this with an etch (Mn + Martensite = Very dark etch for example...of course this fits O-1 and 1084, which have very different requirements...), but that takes a good bit of experience and known samples.

-d
 
also if there was a photo of a whole range of steels that had all been etched in ferric for 1 minute you could compare with this and eliminate a few types of steel.eg etches dark,its definatly not l6 or 15n20.
i think with a range of tests you can get pretty close to what steel you have.

An alternative method that’s been around a long time is simply to fracture the steel and look at the tone or "shade of grey" of the fractured surface. I haven’t use it much though, but suppose it could be helpful. I have noticed slight differences between certain groups of steels.
 
i'll search for some spec's on file steels.. i've got abit here and there

for MIBRO files that are usually sold at sears:

Carbon C 1.25 - 1.35%

Silicon Si 0.30% Max

Manganese Mn 0.20 – 0.35%

Phosphorous P 0.03% Max

Sulphur S 0.03% Max

Chromium Cr 0.50 – 0.70%

that came right from them

i also thought i saw a chem analysis for nicholson and black diamond at one point.. i'll look around abit more
 
One easy way to tell the difference between shallow hardening and deep hardening steels, is by the evidence of a dramatic quench line. If you weed out the air hardening steels first, you should be able to narrow it down even more.

Take the test piece up 100 degrees or so above non-magnetic, soak it for 5 minutes, and quench a section of it in a fast oil or water, leaving part of it out of the quench. Clean it down to the bare metal and be sure to cut through any decarb. Then, simply etch it and check it for a dramatic quench line,... which should be bold and obvious on shallow hardening steels and barely show at all on deep hardening steels.
 
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In addition to my last post, if it is a shallow hardening steel, simple spark testing against a few other "known" samples of shallow hardening steels with different carbon contents, should be able to get you easily within 1-2 points of the carbon content of the test piece. Everything else being fairly equal, the lower carbon content alloys will throw sparks further from the wheel, and the sparks from the higher carbon content pieces will die out closer to the wheel,... which I think is the most obvious difference... the same would be true if it was a deep hardening steel.

If you can get a good general idea of the alloy first,... then the "trial and error" part and the research, are much faster and easier. :)
 
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A few years ago I got a Tempil chart: Basic Guide to Ferrous Metallurgy. The chart has a lot of good information and show temps. for carbon content with relative colors. Besides the information, I use the chart mostly to see how much color difference there is for an amount of temperature change and how much above non-magnetic a person needs to go for a steel with a given amount of carbon. Along with a magnet and looking for phase-change colors, it helped me stay out of over heating and get close to the needed temperature.

I got the chart by e-mailing Tempil (under 'contacts' > 'general') http://www.tempil.com/index.asp, and asking for the chart. They never e-mailed back but about three weeks later the chart showed up in the mail... no charge when I called an asked what they needed for it.

A person needs to know the chart is not exact. It's based on carbon/iron so any other alloy(s) a steel has change everything a little. Also, the chart is "an equilibium diagram" and that doesn't exist in the knife world. Still, the relative relationships are true, information valid, and the approximate color for temps. useful for relating to non-magnetic.

Mike
 
I think it's important to realize that non-magnetic is just a "reference point", and not necessarily the temperature that any "critical" thermal cycling should be done from.

It is also important to realize the relationships between temperatures, timings and geometries...
 
just spent abit of time with a nicholson bastard file... i spark tested it and compared it to pieces of known steel i have.. it sparked almost exactly the same as timken W1 except that the sparks were shorter and slightly puffier ... but same color as much as i could tell.... then i forged a piece out.. ;)
 
As a note on spark testing and judging carbon content by the distance the sparks are thrown from the wheel,… it will be harder to tell the difference between steels with a carbon content of between about .3 to .6 percent, strictly judging by the distance (and in general) as far as spark testing goes. The ones that fall into that category, (medium carbon), should be set aside for further testing,… (quench/hardness comparative testing). With the steels above about .6 the differences in carbon content will be more obvious and conclusive judging strictly by the distance the sparks are thrown from the wheel.
 
Also consider that,... spark testing in general can also give clues into the alloy content other than carbon.

.... Comparative testing with samples of "known" steels, is really the best way to go.
 
Actually the best way to determine chemistry is to send a piece out for mass spec.

I have nothing against recycling steel given one or both of two conditions:
1. Steel type is known,
2. Maker has put in the time to know or determine optimum heat treat for a given steel.

Just knowing you have a high Carbon steel will not help if you try to get the most out of 1095 with slow oil, or if you try to maximise the heat treatment of an alloy with V or W that needs a soak by just heating to non-magnetic and quenching.

If you do these things you may get a knife that works OK, but maybe you will never know what the steel is really capable of doing.
 
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