How to remove a burr?

[ryts100]

I still think you need to strop more and ease up on the pressure. Using less pressure will reduce the formation of the burr and increase the level of polish.

I check for burrs by stropping the edge on my thumb nail, the size of the burr can be felt this way and it will better help you to decide on your next step. In some cases you might not be able to completely rid the edge of a burr at 6 micron, or you might actually need to go back to your EF stone and refine the edge slightly more.

Factors like, how new are your stones? how much pressure are you using with them? how long are you stropping and what steel? What happens when you go to a finer strop?

To me it seems as though you are doing good but maybe expecting results to be faster then your getting them?

I do sometimes go back to my EF stone, but not always. My C and EC stones are new, but my F and EF are not. They have been used to reprofile my Griptilian and Gayle Bradley, as well as touch up both of them. I'm using more than the weight of the knife, but not too much I think. I'm not stropping very long, maybe 3 minutes or so with each strop, but it's enough to make the edge on my Grip look more polished than the EF. When I go from the 6 to 1 micron strop, not much happens I think, although this might be due to the fact that my 1 micron strop needs to be reloaded. I probably am expecting them faster than I'm getting them, but I've stropped and stropped, and I still get this burr.

I'm still wondering if this isn't just a tiny microbevel (that's what it looks like in your pics). I think a burr would've been removed after all this, or at least changed. You were able to make multiple (10) slice cuts into the paper. If a significant burr were there, I doubt you would've gotten that far (in my experience, a burr would usually move/flop to one side or the other after the 1st/2nd/3rd cut, after which the slicing performance would noticeably change).

I honestly don't think it's a microbevel. I've been using the Magna-Guide system for the DMT Diafolds for all my strokes, so I'm pretty sure the angles are consistent. When I'm stropping I'm probably raising the angle a bit, but not enough to make that significant of a microbevel.

 

[ryts100]

Here are the pictures:
50 strokes per side on Fine Diafold.

50 strokes per side on EF Diafold.

50 strokes per side on 6 micron DMT diamond paste strop.

25 strokes per side on 1 micron diamond spray strop.

 

[Jason B.]

I know I sound like a broken record but pressure is of extreme importance with diamond products. When using your DMT stones feather weight contact and less is what should be used. I sometimes use decreasing amounts of pressure and with a single abrasive can create multiple scratch patterns.

Also when you use strop compounds your progress will run in stages and is similar to the stages of the stones.

In the first few strokes the edge will usually become sharper or seem so and the burr if any seems to go away. In the next stage the edge will actually feel duller but exibit a change in finish and sometimes this is where a burr comes back. last but far from least is when the edge is showing nothing but the scratch pattern from the abrasive being used and the sharpness has peaked out, or can't get any sharper. If your blade is 154CM this should take 30 to 60 minutes to do depending on how fast or slow you like to strop. harder steels will take even longer.

A microbevel is something else that could be a issue. Look close at the edge, a single wrong stroke on the EF stone could be thhe cause of all your problems.

You also might want to use the 1 micron to brighten the surface, this will help too show all the mistakes at the previous grits.

 

[ryts100]

I know I sound like a broken record but pressure is of extreme importance with diamond products. When using your DMT stones feather weight contact and less is what should be used. I sometimes use decreasing amounts of pressure and with a single abrasive can create multiple scratch patterns.

Also when you use strop compounds your progress will run in stages and is similar to the stages of the stones.

In the first few strokes the edge will usually become sharper or seem so and the burr if any seems to go away. In the next stage the edge will actually feel duller but exibit a change in finish and sometimes this is where a burr comes back. last but far from least is when the edge is showing nothing but the scratch pattern from the abrasive being used and the sharpness has peaked out, or can't get any sharper. If your blade is 154CM this should take 30 to 60 minutes to do depending on how fast or slow you like to strop. harder steels will take even longer.

A microbevel is something else that could be a issue. Look close at the edge, a single wrong stroke on the EF stone could be thhe cause of all your problems.

You also might want to use the 1 micron to brighten the surface, this will help too show all the mistakes at the previous grits.

I always remind myself to use really light pressure, but I just feel like I have no control over it when I do, because when I use really light pressure, I'm using just my fingertips to hold the knife. When I do have control, I'm not good at keeping really light pressure. Yes, the blade material is 154CM, so what you're saying is it will take a couple hundred strokes per side on each strop? I do sometimes mess up on the EF, but I always go back and make sure to fix it, so I don't think that's the issue.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I honestly don't think it's a microbevel. I've been using the Magna-Guide system for the DMT Diafolds for all my strokes, so I'm pretty sure the angles are consistent. When I'm stropping I'm probably raising the angle a bit, but not enough to make that significant of a microbevel.

The guided rod systems, like your Magna-Guide, are capable of making some pretty nice edges. There's still some possibility for inconsistency though. The rod rides in the relatively large opening on the upper part of the clamp fixture, which allows for some up/down movement of the rod inside the opening. I've used a Lansky and a Gatco to reprofile my knives, and they are prone to the same up/down movement of the rod, UNLESS care is taken to make sure that the rod rides consistently against the lower edge of the opening (or consistently against the upper edge). If it 'bounces' up/down, it could intermittently change the contact angle with the blade edge. That could produce a microbevel, if it isn't noticed and corrected immediately.

With my Lansky & GATCO, I've gotten in the habit of placing the tip of my index finger on top of the rod, immediately behind the clamp, to make sure the rod stays in contact with the lower side of the opening while I'm using the hones.

 

[ryts100]

The guided rod systems, like your Magna-Guide, are capable of making some pretty nice edges. There's still some possibility for inconsistency though. The rod rides in the relatively large opening on the upper part of the clamp fixture, which allows for some up/down movement of the rod inside the opening. I've used a Lansky and a Gatco to reprofile my knives, and they are prone to the same up/down movement of the rod, UNLESS care is taken to make sure that the rod rides consistently against the lower edge of the opening (or consistently against the upper edge). If it 'bounces' up/down, it could intermittently change the contact angle with the blade edge. That could produce a microbevel, if it isn't noticed and corrected immediately.

With my Lansky & GATCO, I've gotten in the habit of placing the tip of my index finger on top of the rod, immediately behind the clamp, to make sure the rod stays in contact with the lower side of the opening while I'm using the hones.

I know about that flaw, and I always do my best to make sure that I'm sharpening at the shallower angle. If it is a microbevel though, would there be a burr on the edge, since the microbevel is so small?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I know about that flaw, and I always do my best to make sure that I'm sharpening at the shallower angle. If it is a microbevel though, would there be a burr on the edge, since the microbevel is so small?

There's always a chance of a burr, even on a tiny microbevel. But the microbevel itself, if it's present on only one side of your edge, could produce the slightly 'less than ideal' cutting performance like you've described. I'm still inclined to believe that whatever burr you do have is probably extremely small, if not insignificant. A burr, typically, is a very weak & thin sliver of metal at the edge. With all of the stropping & other attempts you've made at removing it, it should've either changed significantly by now, if not been completely removed. At the very least, it should've at least moved back & forth, from one side to the other. That's what they typically do before they're broken off. In this case, no apparent movement has been observed so far. That's why I believe it's a microbevel, and a burr isn't the main issue here.

 

[Jason B.]

Yes without a doubt you need to work every grit longer. When you finish with 1 micron the edge should be a mirror and nothing less, not even a scratch pattern.

Your doing it right just not doing it enough. And yes use even lighter pressure.

Aligner all the time or are you using the stones freehand too?

I just finished a grip myself so I know exactly the burr issue your having. Unfortunately it has a little to do with the softer HT BM tends to use. Not really a bad thing but it does cause different issues when sharpening.

Welcome to the world of diamond stones, they are great at making any steel sharp but even better at telling you what's going on. They will tell you when a steel has a good or OK HT, they will let you know when you haven't used them properly, and will even let you know when your haven't apexed your edge. From your pics I'd say you didn't grind far enough in the beginning (apexed the edge) you can sometimes feel this with the EF stone, it will feel like dirt on the surface of the hone as you pass the edge over it.

 

[ryts100]

There's always a chance of a burr, even on a tiny microbevel. But the microbevel itself, if it's present on only one side of your edge, could produce the slightly 'less than ideal' cutting performance like you've described. I'm still inclined to believe that whatever burr you do have is probably extremely small, if not insignificant. A burr, typically, is a very weak & thin sliver of metal at the edge. With all of the stropping & other attempts you've made at removing it, it should've either changed significantly by now, if not been completely removed. At the very least, it should've at least moved back & forth, from one side to the other. That's what they typically do before they're broken off. In this case, no apparent movement has been observed so far. That's why I believe it's a microbevel, and a burr isn't the main issue here.

Oh, ok. Also, it is on both sides. I'll try to sharpen it out tomorrow, and post back when I do.

Yes without a doubt you need to work every grit longer. When you finish with 1 micron the edge should be a mirror and nothing less, not even a scratch pattern.

Your doing it right just not doing it enough. And yes use even lighter pressure.

Aligner all the time or are you using the stones freehand too?

I just finished a grip myself so I know exactly the burr issue your having. Unfortunately it has a little to do with the softer HT BM tends to use. Not really a bad thing but it does cause different issues when sharpening.

Welcome to the world of diamond stones, they are great at making any steel sharp but even better at telling you what's going on. They will tell you when a steel has a good or OK HT, they will let you know when you haven't used them properly, and will even let you know when your haven't apexed your edge. From your pics I'd say you didn't grind far enough in the beginning (apexed the edge) you can sometimes feel this with the EF stone, it will feel like dirt on the surface of the hone as you pass the edge over it.

I'll work on sharpening longer tomorrow. I'm using the Aligner for all the stones, freehand on the strops. Usually when I use the EF, it's really smooth. Sometimes it feels too smooth for my liking.

 

[Jason B.]

Sounds right, the EF can produce a really fine and strangely sharp edge when the right touch is used. When I use my aligner and bench stones finishing with the EEF the visual finish does not represent the extreme sharpness of the edge. Its truly sharp enough that stropping doesn't make it that much better.

Are you using a leather strop or hard surface?

 

[ryts100]

Sounds right, the EF can produce a really fine and strangely sharp edge when the right touch is used. When I use my aligner and bench stones finishing with the EEF the visual finish does not represent the extreme sharpness of the edge. Its truly sharp enough that stropping doesn't make it that much better.

Are you using a leather strop or hard surface?

I haven't really tested the edge after each grit, I'll have to remember that when I sharpen it tomorrow. I'm using leather for both. When I went to get some paint sticks for the 6 micron DMT paste to make 2 strops(one leather one wooden), the paint sticks weren't flat, so I'm just using leather on cardboard for the 6 micron, and leather on flat paint sticks on cardboard for the 1 micron.

 

[Jason B.]

Go to home depot, lowes, or the hardware to fin a nice flat piece of wood. I know HD has pre cut strips of oak by the base molding that works great for making a leather strop and in a pinch can be used with just some compound on it.

You can also use balsa, MDF, or a closed pore wood like maple with the compound directly on it. The DMT and most other compounds work better/faster this way than on leather. It would probably be better for you to use a hard surface with a aligner edge, the leather strop is micro convexing the edge.

 

[ryts100]

Go to home depot, lowes, or the hardware to fin a nice flat piece of wood. I know HD has pre cut strips of oak by the base molding that works great for making a leather strop and in a pinch can be used with just some compound on it.

You can also use balsa, MDF, or a closed pore wood like maple with the compound directly on it. The DMT and most other compounds work better/faster this way than on leather. It would probably be better for you to use a hard surface with a aligner edge, the leather strop is micro convexing the edge.

I went to Home Depot a few months ago to get some MDF, but they only sell it in big boards. Is there anything else that would work well that's available at Lowes or Home Depot? What do you mean by using a hard surface with a aligner edge?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Go to home depot, lowes, or the hardware to fin a nice flat piece of wood. I know HD has pre cut strips of oak by the base molding that works great for making a leather strop and in a pinch can be used with just some compound on it.

+1 :thumbup:

That oak from Home Depot is what I've made my strops from. It's available in various widths, from about 1.5" up to 5" or 6" or so, and lengths from 24" up to 48" (maybe longer). I use the 2.5" width oak, which will fit perfectly with the 2.5" wide carpet tape (double sided, also available at Home Depot) that I've used to stick the leather to the board. Can make a quality strop very quickly this way, with a minimum of mess.

By the way, they've also got the same type of 'craft wood' in poplar. It's a little cheaper than the oak, but even the oak isn't that expensive, considering what you can make with it, compared to buying a commercially produced strop on wood.

ETA:
This craft wood is also available in varying thicknesses, from 1/4" up to about 3/4" or so.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I went to Home Depot a few months ago to get some MDF, but they only sell it in big boards. Is there anything else that would work well that's available at Lowes or Home Depot? What do you mean by using a hard surface with a aligner edge?

You can get a 24" x 48" sheet of MDF (in 3/4" thickness) for relatively small $ (maybe in the $5 - $10 range; it's pretty inexpensive). I think most Home Depot stores will cut it for you, if you ask. Have them cut a couple of strips from it, into whatever widths you want. The leftover MDF can be useful for LOTS of different projects, if/when you decide to purchase a jigsaw to make stuff with it.

 

[ryts100]

+1 :thumbup:

That oak from Home Depot is what I've made my strops from. It's available in various widths, from about 1.5" up to 5" or 6" or so, and lengths from 24" up to 48" (maybe longer). I use the 2.5" width oak, which will fit perfectly with the 2.5" wide carpet tape (double sided, also available at Home Depot) that I've used to stick the leather to the board. Can make a quality strop very quickly this way, with a minimum of mess.

By the way, they've also got the same type of 'craft wood' in poplar. It's a little cheaper than the oak, but even the oak isn't that expensive, considering what you can make with it, compared to buying a commercially produced strop on wood.

ETA:
This craft wood is also available in varying thicknesses, from 1/4" up to about 3/4" or so.

Can I use just the oak for the diamond paste? Or is something like MDF better?

You can get a 24" x 48" sheet of MDF (in 3/4" thickness) for relatively small $ (maybe in the $5 - $10 range; it's pretty inexpensive). I think most Home Depot stores will cut it for you, if you ask. Have them cut a couple of strips from it, into whatever widths you want. The leftover MDF can be useful for LOTS of different projects, if/when you decide to purchase a jigsaw to make stuff with it.

When I went to Home Depot, that's the board that I saw that was too big. I'll ask them if they'll cut it for me next time I go.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Can I use just the oak for the diamond paste? Or is something like MDF better?

Knifenut1013 is more of the expert with stropping on wood. I'm sure he'll continue to lend his good advice in that regard. But, for my two cents worth, I think the MDF is usually recommended for the diamond paste because it's surface is VERY smooth, even and flat. I suspect that would allow for more even distribution of the paste on the surface. The oak is nice overall, but it's grain will tend to have some low spots & grooves throughout, and that might tend to 'collect' high concentrations of paste within the grooves of the grain, while having lower concentration elsewhere. Oak is beautiful wood though. Makes a fine strop w/leather, not to mention for many other projects. It's very strong, dense and just has a lot of character to it.

The one thing you need to be careful with the MDF, you don't want to get it wet. I think knifenut1013 has mentioned this recently in one thread or another. If it gets wet, it will swell and lose it's flat, smooth surface. For this reason, the oil-based paste would be better (as opposed to the water-based diamond spray).

 

[cbwx34]

There's always a chance of a burr, even on a tiny microbevel. But the microbevel itself, if it's present on only one side of your edge, could produce the slightly 'less than ideal' cutting performance like you've described. I'm still inclined to believe that whatever burr you do have is probably extremely small, if not insignificant. A burr, typically, is a very weak & thin sliver of metal at the edge. With all of the stropping & other attempts you've made at removing it, it should've either changed significantly by now, if not been completely removed. At the very least, it should've at least moved back & forth, from one side to the other. That's what they typically do before they're broken off. In this case, no apparent movement has been observed so far. That's why I believe it's a microbevel, and a burr isn't the main issue here.

This answer is correct... everything you've posted says you don't have a burr... you're stropping higher than your sharpening, which is why the very edge is shinier than the rest... and probably dulling your edge. Read Twindog's recent thread....

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=750008

You're not going to create a burr that big that you couldn't easily tell it was a burr with the other ways to detect it described in this (and other) threads.

Follow knifenut's advice and strop it on a harder surface (or at least mount your leather better), and I'll bet your problem is solved.

cbw

 

[Infi-del]

When I finish an edge, sometimes there is this little metal hair like material sticking straight up of the edge. I assume this is just a very thin burr. But it can fold back and forth from one side to the other with just the pressure of my finger nail. What I have found that works really great is after about 5 minutes on the strop... I will put the knife 90 degrees to a soft piece of wood like a pine block. And slice into it from bottom to tip once or twice. The knife immediately becomes sharper. I then strop for another 5 minutes and do the same thing. Not a lot of pressure, just enough to let the edge bite into the wood. And if need be I'll do it for another 5 minutes. But I've never had to go past a second run until my knife is super scary way too sharp sharp. Hope this helps.

 

[ryts100]

Knifenut1013 is more of the expert with stropping on wood. I'm sure he'll continue to lend his good advice in that regard. But, for my two cents worth, I think the MDF is usually recommended for the diamond paste because it's surface is VERY smooth, even and flat. I suspect that would allow for more even distribution of the paste on the surface. The oak is nice overall, but it's grain will tend to have some low spots & grooves throughout, and that might tend to 'collect' high concentrations of paste within the grooves of the grain, while having lower concentration elsewhere. Oak is beautiful wood though. Makes a fine strop w/leather, not to mention for many other projects. It's very strong, dense and just has a lot of character to it.

The one thing you need to be careful with the MDF, you don't want to get it wet. I think knifenut1013 has mentioned this recently in one thread or another. If it gets wet, it will swell and lose it's flat, smooth surface. For this reason, the oil-based paste would be better (as opposed to the water-based diamond spray).

Since I don't want to buy a lot of wood at once, I assume I can also mount the leather on the MDF? Will MDF swell if any bit of water touches it?

This answer is correct... everything you've posted says you don't have a burr... you're stropping higher than your sharpening, which is why the very edge is shinier than the rest... and probably dulling your edge. Read Twindog's recent thread....

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=750008

You're not going to create a burr that big that you couldn't easily tell it was a burr with the other ways to detect it described in this (and other) threads.

Follow knifenut's advice and strop it on a harder surface (or at least mount your leather better), and I'll bet your problem is solved.

cbw

Yes, I am stropping higher than I'm sharpening, but not significantly enough to make that small of a microbevel. I'll go to Home Depot this weekend and pick up some MDF.

When I finish an edge, sometimes there is this little metal hair like material sticking straight up of the edge. I assume this is just a very thin burr. But it can fold back and forth from one side to the other with just the pressure of my finger nail. What I have found that works really great is after about 5 minutes on the strop... I will put the knife 90 degrees to a soft piece of wood like a pine block. And slice into it from bottom to tip once or twice. The knife immediately becomes sharper. I then strop for another 5 minutes and do the same thing. Not a lot of pressure, just enough to let the edge bite into the wood. And if need be I'll do it for another 5 minutes. But I've never had to go past a second run until my knife is super scary way too sharp sharp. Hope this helps.

Thanks, I'll remember this when I get a real burr.