How to tell that a Spyderco PM2...described "As New in Box"...isn't...

[Sonnydaze]

On occasion, because I love 'em, I tend to buy some PM2's and Millies from the Exchange. I only go after ones that are marked ANIB or "never carried or used" or a similar type of description. Occasionally, I buy an "exceptional one" in Elmax (or a better steel) to collect...at least for a little while. They don't generally stay long in my possession, as I'm not a serious collector. I guess I'm just a sucker for nice steels and the fabulous compression lock.

However, the PM2's that I am getting anymore...have often been switched to tip up, an obvious indication that the knife has been "set up" for carry purposes. I do look at the posted pics and even have purchased PM2's with tip-down pocket-clip...only to discover that once I have it "in house," that the tip had been tip-up for some time, before being changed BACK prior to someone photographing it and selling it again. Of course, that move leaves a tell-tale faded area where the clip had been previously installed.

It might be a minor issue for someone who intends to carry the knife, but if you purchase a "better" blade-steel (other than S30V) and pay a "premium" for it, it can upset you when you find out that the knife is NOT collectible in any way, and you have just lost the premium that you paid for an assumed collectible piece. As an ethical knife-guy, you will lose considerable dollars upon resale of the item as you are honor-bound to describe it accurately.

I've had this happen several times recently, and it's distressing.

I realize that I could ship the knife back, via PayPal, but usually I just let it go and either gift the blade, or resell the knife and absorb a small loss. I do notify the seller that I was sold on a false notion, but I have no way of knowing just who might have intentionally made the switch back to the tip-down. And they STILL call these things NEW IN BOX in the ads...even when the clip is battered or scratched from carry, or is obviously installed in the tip-us position.

Indications that the PM2 you're selling is NOT as-new-in-box:
1. When it's not sharp...not the factory edge. It's pretty easy to tell by closely examining the blade edge. Of course, a magnifying glass will make this much easier, and the factory belt "grind-lines" will be rather obvious.
2. When the pocket-clip is "tip-up"... Not as sold by the factory...
3. When the pocket-clip, blade or scales show signs of scratches, dings, dents, or ANY use or significant fading of G-10 scale color..
4. When the clip is "tip-down"...but you can see a faded area at the "tip-up" hole location...
5. When the factory box has the wrong label, no plastic wrapper, a missing significant "Edge-U-Cation"paper or sponge-rubber cushioned insert...
6. If the release of the compression lock drops the blade into the handle... Most new PM2's have a rather stiff blade ride when new, and only fall freely after some "break-in."
7. If there is existing "lock-rock" or blade-wiggle. I have NEVER personally experienced this in a "new" PM2, although I'm sure it may happen.
8. If there are loose or stripped scale screws, you should be particularly concerned about the condition of the folder.

Of course, if you have read this post, you were probably already aware of all of these points, as I doubt that newer members pay much attention to this section of the Forum. And, of course, they are the most likely offenders...even if done in complete innocence.

It does make sense, then, to use PayPal Goods and Services for payment as one means to protect your investment, as I understand that the PayPal "system" works quite well for the Buyer...
Sonnydaze

sonnydaze[/QUOTE]

 

[EyeDog]

Hey Sonnydaze...I find that there is a wide range of interpretation regarding what's new, like new, mint or minty and all the other similar descriptions. I got one that said in the ad, "never out of box except for photos." Had a visible scratch on the clip. Guess he needs to be more careful taking pics.

Your attempt to quantify what's really new is pretty good. Not sure I would rank a changed clip direction as less than new. But I do see your point.

What's the most expensive grail PM2 you've seen? I do think these issues are more critical as you get into mid tech and above.

Nice article.

Mike

 

[Sonnydaze]

Good morning, Mike...
At one point, I carried a nice stock of all blade-steel variants. My finest ones were three absolutely MINT PM2's in S90V. Finally sold those three in a package for $1300.
I similarly had a good share of CTS--20CP's, 204P, M390's, M4, Elmax, etc...perhaps twenty total of the nicer steels at any one time...in a rapidly-changing variety. Also, a nice selection of the Millies. After fighting valiantly each month to pay off my credit-card bill...which reached $1500 at times...I decided to switch tactics. I sold about 99%, and any more, I just keep a nice camo or black in S30V around to remind me of the good ol' days. I do enjoy gifting to close friends, deployed troops and younger, broker... law-enforcement officers, but that's about the extent of it. And, as I mentioned, if I can find a nice steel for a decent price, I try to pick one up just to fondle it for a while and enjoy it in its factory box, before putting it back on the market... PM2's ARE a special breed.
I suppose it's worth it to admit, that as much as I love these PM2's and Millies...I've never carried one EDC...
Sonnydaze

 

[RevDevil]

Hey Sonnydaze...I find that there is a wide range of interpretation regarding what's new, like new, mint or minty and all the other similar descriptions. I got one that said in the ad, "never out of box except for photos." Had a visible scratch on the clip. Guess he needs to be more careful taking pics.

Your attempt to quantify what's really new is pretty good. Not sure I would rank a changed clip direction as less than new. But I do see your point.

What's the most expensive grail PM2 you've seen? I do think these issues are more critical as you get into mid tech and above.

Nice article.

Mike

The wide range of interpretation is what has become an issue, regardless of the brand, maker, or price point. People are failing to describe things with honestly and accuracy more and more often. Almost to the point where we could essentially have solid reasons for complaints and refunds. I've narrowed it down to laziness, I would hate to think anyone is dumb enough to omit details of an item that will be apparent upon purchase. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot during a sale.

 

[EyeDog]

@RevDevil ... It takes longer to write a full description so your comment about laziness is spot on. Full disclosure seems to have lost its meaning these days.

 

[RevDevil]

@RevDevil ... It takes longer to write a full description so your comment about laziness is spot on. Full disclosure seems to have lost its meaning these days.

I spoke with Don about this via Pm and I think people might feel that they will scare away buyers if they say things like:
Cut open a box with it
Minor scratch on the blade
Switch pocket clip position

Better to err on the side of honesty and be cautious. I've bought stuff that was said to be NIB, only to find out that it wasn't as soon as I open up the package. People might get the hint if we start sending chiclets their way, giving them custom titles...

 

[gonebad395]

Again this is all individuals interpretation to me new in box means opened box took pic closed box. Like new in box took it out played with it took pic played with it some more then put it in box. If it has any kind of wear a scratch man up and call it what it is USED.

 

[EyeDog]

@Sonnydaze - sounds like you represent the pure collector. I do EDC most of my knives so don't have many safe queens.

However, this is a terrific and much needed topic. I recently bought a knife here from a first time seller...no feedback here and other than photos a really short description. In PM he said the photos spoke for themselves. Yes and no. I want to know about the mechanics of the knife like centering, blade play, pivot tension, lockup -- and more. Pictures don't tell it all and can even mask problems.

Good for you in gifting to the folks you mentioned. You're a good example to follow.

Mike

 

[Hale Storm]

Again this is all individuals interpretation to me new in box means opened box took pic closed box. Like new in box took it out played with it took pic played with it some more then put it in box. If it has any kind of wear a scratch man up and call it what it is USED.

^ This. :thumbup:

 

[Sonnydaze]

Your attempt to quantify what's really new is pretty good. Not sure I would rank a changed clip direction as less than new. But I do see your point.

Mike

Thanks to all for nice comments. It is a concern when a "nice" folder cannot be viewed as NIB or Perfect when it looks like this upon receipt. On a deal like this, I suspect that the folder has lost at least fifty dollars in real value. You can make your own assumptions on this folder.

 

[fmendez]

i'm following this thread with interest since I have many knives I'm considering selling. This is what I would like to know, I'm a lefty and when i get a knife the first thing I do is swish the clip to lefty carry and then goes into the box, I never used most of the knives particularly the PM2 which I like but never EDC. I have a Military in CPM D2 for years which of course is right handed only and never carried.
What would be fair to discount from the price of a knife that a clip had been switched to left carry but is otherwise in excellent condition? I would not claim is NIB
Thanks

 

[pbcg]

Again this is all individuals interpretation to me new in box means opened box took pic closed box. Like new in box took it out played with it took pic played with it some more then put it in box. If it has any kind of wear a scratch man up and call it what it is USED.

^^^^
I agree with this completely! I never get the "I only carried it a few times, or cut up a few boxes, or has marks from storage? but the knife is basically new" sales threads I've seen so many of. Especially when said knife is offered as NIB or LNIB.

I pass on those automatically no matter how good the pic's look because I don't feel the seller grasps or really understands the description he is giving and there could be other thing's they have omitted.

OP, I get and feel your frustration, I'd just point out one thing though. When it comes to production knives, not exclusive to Spyderco but all production knives, on close inspection I can usually find a flaw(s) with most knives even when truly NIB.

Blade play, dents and ding's in the liners, sloppy blade grinds, loose or stripped screws and even a small scratch or two that left the factory that way. Even corrosion a couple of times. It doesn't always mean the knife has been used. However, if these flaws are obvious they should be noted just the same. NIB or not.

That said, I agree with you completely and really wish people would do a better job in honestly and accurately describing their knives.

I hope more read your thread, it can only help.

 

[Sonnydaze]

I'm a lefty and when i get a knife the first thing I do is swish the clip to lefty carry and then goes into the box, I never used most of the kniv,es particularly the PM2 which I like but never EDC.
What would be fair to discount from the price of a knife that a clip had been switched to left carry but is otherwise in excellent condition? I would not claim is NIB
Thanks

I don't think that you need to discount anything. The major consideration is honesty and full disclosure in the description of the sales knife. Realizing that about 10% of the population is left-handed, then you have a valuable item for quite a few folks. A right-hander can always change it back if desired. I see nothing in your post that would indicate that you should discount anything.

This discussion, and I am guilty of it, points more toward the value of a "collector's" piece. Collectors are rare birds, very picky, meticulous and methodical and persnickety in addition. A collector looks at that knife as a thing of beauty as it represents a perfect production folder. Anything that detracts from that view of perfection...does devalue the piece in the collector's eyes.

For a carry piece, this thread perhaps does not hold as much interest and relevance, although the honesty and ethics should remain involved...IMO.
Don

 

[m woodley]

Well said Sonnydaze.

 

[powernoodle]

As a seller, it is better to under promise and over deliver. One does this by selling a knife that is in better condition than described. That makes a buyer happy, and results in good feedback and no bad GBU threads.

This is not rocket science. Every seller could do it. Some just choose not to. And as a buyer, grief can be avoided by purchasing only from sellers with tons of 100% good feedback, whether here or on eBay.

I have spoken.

 

[JR88FAN]

There has been a lot of discussion about what NIB and LNIB mean.....

It's obvious that people in a large number of cases use those terms incorrectly, so as buyers we really need to just ignore them....

Best thing to do is to look at the pictures provided very carefully.
If they are inadequate, then to ask for more, and also, ask as many questions as you can about what's important to you when it comes to the condition and history of a knife.

 

[JR88FAN]

As a seller, it is better to under promise and over deliver. One does this by selling a knife that is in better condition than described. That makes a buyer happy, and results in good feedback and no bad GBU threads.

This is not rocket science. Every seller could do it. Some just choose not to. And as a buyer, grief can be avoided by purchasing only from sellers with tons of 100% good feedback, whether here or on eBay.

I have spoken.

I wish 100% feedback meant what we all hope it did..

Point is, some of the biggest crooks on eBay have 100% feedback.

You have to ask yourself, how many people are dissatisfied with some aspect of a transaction but say or do nothing?

Not everyone complains if an item is not close to as described, a lot of people just live with it.......

 

[powernoodle]

Point is, some of the biggest crooks on eBay have 100% feedback.

I had trouble with eBay seller Belote, who has good feedback and lots of sales. But on the whole, sellers with tons of sales and excellent feedback tend to be much safer than those without. All we can do with knives, chicks, careers and life generally is just to play the best odds.

As for what constitutes NIB, in my view if the seller has had his nasty little fingers on it for more than 5 seconds (I know where those fingers have been) it is no longer NIB. I don't think that very many sellers would agree, though.

 

[bdmicarta]

I think NIB is pretty easy- it should be NEW in the box. You touch any of the screws and it isn't new anymore. You carry it or play with it more than a tiny bit and it isn't new anymore. You cut anything other than a few pieces of paper and it isn't new anymore.

Now LIKE NEW is harder to define, but if a person describes the condition then the buyer can make the decision. I was in the watch collecting for awhile and of course those guys buy and sell as much as knife guys do. Before selling a watch I would clean it up the best I could, look it over with a magnifier, and describe everything I could see. Then the buyer can decide if it meets their needs. I try to do the same with knives.

Actually I don't buy many knives new, and the ones that I do buy new I intend to use, so I'm typically selling a used knife. I just look it over and describe it, let the buyer decide if they want it in that condition. I will set the price accordingly. Some of the things we are talking about such as moving a clip or a scratch on the blade might not affect the sales price that much, but if the buyer is wanting a knife with no scratches then they would appreciate it if the seller gave an accurate description. As an example I see Spyderco PM2's selling for about $115 when NIB, and usually $95 or more when used. If I'm buying a knife I usually want to use it so I don't mind it if starts out used and I can spend a little less on it.

The pocket clip thing bugs me a lot too. I see a lot of discussion from people that try to work on their knife and strip out a screw, and I see a lot of knives listed for sale where they say that one of the screws is stripped. I did buy a used PM2 and it came with the clip moved. This was not mentioned or shown in the sales ad and I didn't think to ask about it. It bothered me because I wanted to put the clip back and there was too much chance that there would be a problem with it. But it turned out that all of the screws were good. I would not have bought it if I had known that the clip was switched.

 

[bdmicarta]

As for what constitutes NIB, in my view if the seller has had his nasty little fingers on it for more than 5 seconds ... it is no longer NIB.

The thing is, if you go into a store and buy a knife that should be new in box, you don't know how many people have handled the knife before you. If you buy from a reputable online retailer there is much less chance that it has been handled very much.

(I know where those fingers have been)

My daughter and I had a joke for awhile- she was working as a dental assistant. One day we went to lunch at a fast food restaurant and while I was paying she took our cups over to the drink machine. I told her to be careful when touching my cup, saying I didn't know where those hands had been. The joke was that we both knew good and well where her hands had been, in many peoples' mouths. (Of course they wash a lot and they wear gloves and so forth so it isn't really a problem.)