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How tough are Emerson knives in reality ?
- Thread starter beluga
- Start date
I HAVE A MACH 1 PLAIN EDGE BLACK AND A CQC7B PLAIN EDGE BLACK. THE MACH 1 HAS SOME BLADE PLAY AND THE LINER DOESN'T LOCK UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BLADE WHEN OPENED. THE CQC7 LOCKS UP TIGHT AND IN THE MIDDLE. I HAVE NOT USED THEM TO CHOP DOWN ANY TREES OR OPEN 55 GALLON DRUMS OR ANYTHING OF THAT NATURE, BUT HAVE USED THE MACH 1 TO CUT UP LINOLIUM (SP) AND ROPE AND CARPET , 550 CORD AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE WITH NO PROBLEM. TO ME THE BLADE TENDS TO LOSE ITS EDGE FAIRLY QUICKLY, DON'T KNOW IF IT IS THE CHISLE GRIND OR NOT. NOW I DON'T WANT TO START WWIII COMMENTING ON THE CHISLE GRIND SO I WILL NOT COMMENT FURTHER. IMHO THEY ARE AS TOUGH AS MOST OTHER FOLDERS IN ITS PRICE RANGE.
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- Jul 1, 2002
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I used to have a Commander that if I applied some pressure on the spine, the lock would slide over to the left (this was on a right handed model, so the lock was actually disengaging). There was some vertical and horizontal blade play as well. Maybe it was a lemon, maybe it wasn't, but as far as I'm concerned, they're not the number one hard use knives in the world...
However, I must say that some of their designs look pretty good and the ergonomics on the Commander models are superb.
However, I must say that some of their designs look pretty good and the ergonomics on the Commander models are superb.
I AGREE, GREAT ERGONOMICS. THEY FIT MY HAND LIKE A GLOVE. DEFINITELY NOT THE NUBMER ONE HARD USE KNIFE. I GOT CAUGHT UP IN THE HYPE OF EKI AND FEEL I HAVE WASTED MY MONEY. I HAVE GONE THROUGH WHO KNOWS HOW MANY FOLDERS WHILE ALWAYS HAVING MY SAK EXPLORER AND NOW CLIMBER IN MY POCKET JUST IN CASE THE FOLDER SUCKS.
spyken
Gold Member
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I had a CQC7 which didn't lock up so great, so I sent it in to the factory. When it got back, the lock-up was excellent - so really, it's a question of EKI controlling the QC a bit better.
However, if you compare with spyderco, EKI's liners are thicker and no one ever complains about spyderco's liners failing. (btw, I love spyderco). I also found that the 154CM EKI uses sharpens and takes a razor edge quite easily, and really responds to stropping.
A lot of EKI stuff is marketing though, and I think most people see and acknowledge that. I suppose it sort of commercialises/trivialises the high-end knife industry a little, which is why the "#1 hard-use knives, special ops etc etc" irks people a little.
BTW CJ1999, typing in caps generally denotes EMPHASIS or SHOUTING, neither of which you're intending. plus it's a mite harder to read.
cheers,
spyken
However, if you compare with spyderco, EKI's liners are thicker and no one ever complains about spyderco's liners failing. (btw, I love spyderco). I also found that the 154CM EKI uses sharpens and takes a razor edge quite easily, and really responds to stropping.
A lot of EKI stuff is marketing though, and I think most people see and acknowledge that. I suppose it sort of commercialises/trivialises the high-end knife industry a little, which is why the "#1 hard-use knives, special ops etc etc" irks people a little.
BTW CJ1999, typing in caps generally denotes EMPHASIS or SHOUTING, neither of which you're intending. plus it's a mite harder to read.
cheers,
spyken
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I only have one Emerson left in my rotation an old 2000 CQC7A sold off my others Commander,MACH1,SpecWar, and Raven
Just did not like the thin liners and the chisel grind is a bear to sharpen IMO.
Although the CQC7A has been through hell and back, and it has taken all the cutting chores I have given it in style and without fail.
I am carefull of how I use the Emerson though. Light cutting is ok but I HATE to have to sharpen it. It takes me twice as long and I cannot use a Spyderco sharpemaker on it to save my life. All my other knives, AL Mars, Striders, Bucks sharpen super easy and fast.
I would say if your looking for heavy duty folders try Buck/Striders or Al Mars I have had a great history of use with both of them.
This is only My Opine.
Just did not like the thin liners and the chisel grind is a bear to sharpen IMO.
Although the CQC7A has been through hell and back, and it has taken all the cutting chores I have given it in style and without fail.
I am carefull of how I use the Emerson though. Light cutting is ok but I HATE to have to sharpen it. It takes me twice as long and I cannot use a Spyderco sharpemaker on it to save my life. All my other knives, AL Mars, Striders, Bucks sharpen super easy and fast.
I would say if your looking for heavy duty folders try Buck/Striders or Al Mars I have had a great history of use with both of them.
This is only My Opine.
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Ernie is a very good designer, IMO. Not all, but numerous of his knives have great lines, great eye appeal. But not at the expense of ergonomics! That's good design. (I won't name any designer's names (clue), but there are some really wild designs out there that look crazy wicked futuristic, but you can hardly carry or use them for all the sharp edges and corners on the handles).
IMO, the Mach-I, CQC8, Commander, Specwar, and a couple others have well thought out handles, and I like the Mach-I, CQC8, and Specwar blade shapes and tip stoutness. However, don't get me started on chisel grinds, or V-ground with a single bevel final edge, for utility edges. Actually, fulloflead did recently, use search engine for another ear-full if you can stand it.
If someone truly wanted a hard use folder, there are many other folders that are quite a bit more overbuilt. But it begs the question of "folder" and extreme use. Just doesn't make sense, except in emergency situation. I.e, why not a small fixed blade, flat ground with convex final edge, out of 3V or a simpler, tough carbon steel with a protective coating (O1, A2, or even 1084 or L6)? If Ernie's PUK was made out of 3V, or even A2 (inexpensive, good performing, easy-to-heat-treat, air hardening steel) that would be a pretty good, small, hard use fixed blade, for example.
154CM is a good premium stainless steel, but it's been surpassed uniformly in measurable ways by BG-42 and certainly by S30V now. It's a bit brittle when run at it's ~optimum edge holding hardness of about Rc60-61 (it's a slicer stainless steel, not a beater hard-use steel). So Emerson runs it soft enough to improve toughness (Rc57-59), which of course knocks the potential edge retention and resistance to edge rolling and impaction by around 20%-25%. Still an ok range, but just a compromise. If EKI was serious about hard use stainless blades, they'd be all over S30V already.
I've had problems with past Emerson liner locks also. For a hard use knife, much rather have a frame lock, a very stout lockback (e.g. Spyderco Chinook, SOG Tomcat, except they aren't so easy to one-hand on the close stroke), or an Axis lock, or Spydie Compression lock.
Ernie is a very good marketer. Tends to appeals to armchair commando's. Those who know knives see right through it.
His customs are WAY overpriced, just like Steve Ryan's, lot's of hype has heated up demand to unreasonable levels. I wouldn't touch either, not for value, and I figure the market will collapse at some point (or at least I'm not willing to bet on the other direction).
Even some of those who pretty much get it as to the hype can't help themselves and just have to own an Emerson custom. Sometimes personal pride of ownership, but usually involves bragging rights with others. YMMV. Flame away.
On the topic of sharpening: buy diamond stones, and never have to worry about ease of sharpening, even with 420V or 10V.
OH-kay... end of rant. :yawn:
Hey, just noticed... EKI renamed the Mach-I the "Max-I". I wonder if Gillete went after him?
IMO, the Mach-I, CQC8, Commander, Specwar, and a couple others have well thought out handles, and I like the Mach-I, CQC8, and Specwar blade shapes and tip stoutness. However, don't get me started on chisel grinds, or V-ground with a single bevel final edge, for utility edges. Actually, fulloflead did recently, use search engine for another ear-full if you can stand it.
If someone truly wanted a hard use folder, there are many other folders that are quite a bit more overbuilt. But it begs the question of "folder" and extreme use. Just doesn't make sense, except in emergency situation. I.e, why not a small fixed blade, flat ground with convex final edge, out of 3V or a simpler, tough carbon steel with a protective coating (O1, A2, or even 1084 or L6)? If Ernie's PUK was made out of 3V, or even A2 (inexpensive, good performing, easy-to-heat-treat, air hardening steel) that would be a pretty good, small, hard use fixed blade, for example.
154CM is a good premium stainless steel, but it's been surpassed uniformly in measurable ways by BG-42 and certainly by S30V now. It's a bit brittle when run at it's ~optimum edge holding hardness of about Rc60-61 (it's a slicer stainless steel, not a beater hard-use steel). So Emerson runs it soft enough to improve toughness (Rc57-59), which of course knocks the potential edge retention and resistance to edge rolling and impaction by around 20%-25%. Still an ok range, but just a compromise. If EKI was serious about hard use stainless blades, they'd be all over S30V already.
I've had problems with past Emerson liner locks also. For a hard use knife, much rather have a frame lock, a very stout lockback (e.g. Spyderco Chinook, SOG Tomcat, except they aren't so easy to one-hand on the close stroke), or an Axis lock, or Spydie Compression lock.
Ernie is a very good marketer. Tends to appeals to armchair commando's. Those who know knives see right through it.
His customs are WAY overpriced, just like Steve Ryan's, lot's of hype has heated up demand to unreasonable levels. I wouldn't touch either, not for value, and I figure the market will collapse at some point (or at least I'm not willing to bet on the other direction).
Even some of those who pretty much get it as to the hype can't help themselves and just have to own an Emerson custom. Sometimes personal pride of ownership, but usually involves bragging rights with others. YMMV. Flame away.
On the topic of sharpening: buy diamond stones, and never have to worry about ease of sharpening, even with 420V or 10V.
OH-kay... end of rant. :yawn:
Hey, just noticed... EKI renamed the Mach-I the "Max-I". I wonder if Gillete went after him?
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I've never handled a karambit but I carry a cqc8 daily while at work. I switch to a Super Commander when I get home. I carried a cqc7 for years and still keep one around for when I travel out of the country. I've found all of the Emersons to be of excellent quality as far as using knives go. The ergonomics are superb, the lock up on all of mine has been nothing but tight with no unintentional disengagement, the edge holding at least as good as many customs I've had, and when I do need to sharpen them they sharpen quick and easy. (To tell the truth only the cqc7 has needed to be sharpened from completely dull. The others I usually tune up with a fine ceramic and strop). I've heard others complain about the liners and quality but it just has not been my experience...never ruined any pockets waving either, which is another complaint I often read about. I'll continue to use Emersons and use them hard.
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In my case, it is not the grind that I'm having doubt with. I agree with those who say that chisel grind is a pain to sharpen, but it's still doable. You just have to use diffeent grits to get the optimal edge. I use blue diamond, Norton India fine girt, sharpening steel, ceramic rod (fine grit, not extra) AND strop when I sharpen my old CQC7 Benchmade/Emerson. 
I'm a little worried about the Kerambit liner lock. When I clip it inside my pocket, and pull it out, the blade opens automatically. When I pull it out too hardly, the liner lock tends to 'move' further inside. I only encounter it in lower-end knives, but I wouldn't even imagine that merson is like this. My Benchmade, Microtech, MOD, don't have this problem at all.
My BM450 (Terzuola design) is way smaller than the Kerambit, and it employs almost the same thickness of liner lock. And the liner on the 450 never moves even when I flick the knife open on purpose.
Is it because of the construction, material, QC ?
I have to agree that Emerson customs are way too expensive. For the same price, I can get a damascus blade Fisk or even a Pronghorn that will work 100x better. I am a sucker for forged blades, so I am very biased when making the last statement
I'm not using any of Emerson knives as my heavy duty workers. I always use a fixed blade for that purpose. My newest work horse is a stout (almost 1/4" thick) little fixed blade from David Dempsey (he calls it 'The Coyote'). This thing is almost impossible to break. Did a little tests stabbing yellow book, and it never went through less than 320 pages without any damages to the finish, tip or edge.
El Coyote : http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=268781
I'm a little worried about the Kerambit liner lock. When I clip it inside my pocket, and pull it out, the blade opens automatically. When I pull it out too hardly, the liner lock tends to 'move' further inside. I only encounter it in lower-end knives, but I wouldn't even imagine that merson is like this. My Benchmade, Microtech, MOD, don't have this problem at all.
My BM450 (Terzuola design) is way smaller than the Kerambit, and it employs almost the same thickness of liner lock. And the liner on the 450 never moves even when I flick the knife open on purpose.
Is it because of the construction, material, QC ?
I have to agree that Emerson customs are way too expensive. For the same price, I can get a damascus blade Fisk or even a Pronghorn that will work 100x better. I am a sucker for forged blades, so I am very biased when making the last statement
I'm not using any of Emerson knives as my heavy duty workers. I always use a fixed blade for that purpose. My newest work horse is a stout (almost 1/4" thick) little fixed blade from David Dempsey (he calls it 'The Coyote'). This thing is almost impossible to break. Did a little tests stabbing yellow book, and it never went through less than 320 pages without any damages to the finish, tip or edge.
El Coyote : http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=268781
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- Nov 17, 2001
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Now there's someone claiming that Emerson to be hard core knives
Pehaps the QC is not as good because customers end up getting the same model with different quality level ?
BTW, I hope I'm not being a troll here. I'm just curious with what people claim about Emerson. I was curious about the SNG Strider, but after inspecting it at the Bladeshow, I could see why people calim them as hard core knives. I'm expecting mine tomorrow.
Pehaps the QC is not as good because customers end up getting the same model with different quality level ?
BTW, I hope I'm not being a troll here. I'm just curious with what people claim about Emerson. I was curious about the SNG Strider, but after inspecting it at the Bladeshow, I could see why people calim them as hard core knives. I'm expecting mine tomorrow.
spyken
Gold Member
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- Apr 29, 2002
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Originally posted by beluga
I was curious about the SNG Strider, but after inspecting it at the Bladeshow, I could see why people calim them as hard core knives. I'm expecting mine tomorrow.
Beluga, could you pls bring that SNG with you when you come down to Singapore? - I'd really love to handle and see that SNG in person, seeing as I can never afford one!!!
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I stopped selling EK linerlocks last year. I had several [ 4 out of maybe 7 ] that would fail the spinewhack test right out of the box.
Besides the cost of reshipping it back to the distributor, the ill will of the customers was not something I needed to deal with.
Not bad mouthing them, everyone has screwups and QC probelms. I just have not seen the same problems from other makers in the quantity like the EK's.
Good designs, gimmicky wave feature that many like, the good chance of a QC issue when you get it all conspire to put me on the path of least resistance [ no more Emersons from my distributor to customers ].
Brownie
Besides the cost of reshipping it back to the distributor, the ill will of the customers was not something I needed to deal with.
Not bad mouthing them, everyone has screwups and QC probelms. I just have not seen the same problems from other makers in the quantity like the EK's.
Good designs, gimmicky wave feature that many like, the good chance of a QC issue when you get it all conspire to put me on the path of least resistance [ no more Emersons from my distributor to customers ].
Brownie
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Pretty revealing post... thanks Brownie.
That is a good summary it would seem... any given person won't have a complaint about liners, but a whole POPULATION of people? There are indeed too many complaints to ignore. Poor control of tolerances and very liberal or inattentive QA/QC conspire to end up with experiences from dealers like Brownie.
(I've owned 5 folders from Emerson, and 2 other fixed blades ... 2 of them had liner lock problems. The data does indeed stack up. The devotees tend to either ignore the population of complaints, or keep searching, e.g. handling in person before buying, trading around, to find a good example they can live with).
Sidebar: the definition of Hard Use needs to be defined as well. Hard to one person is a moderate day's use to another.
My "hard use" folder: a BM 710 in M2. I'd say I give it a moderate workout at times, but well within what I think are reasonable limits for a folder like this.
Here is what I consider "moderate workout" from a couple of my prior posts:
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Good thread guys. I have to agree with most of what you said. I also got caught up in the hype about being the #1 hard use knife etc. I bought a commander and I love the wave feature and the shape and feel of the handle. However I think the liner lock is very weak and wimpy. Overall I think they are way overpriced and over hyped. I doubt I will ever buy another EKI folder. I like my knives big and solid, I was hoping to get that with the commander. Unfortunately I didn't. On a side note I am expecting a Strider AR at my door in a couple of days!
Klesk
Gold Member
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I'm glad someone started this thread; I was planning to do it myself, but I was worried about getting flamed. 
I kept away from Emersons mainly because I prefer tip-down carry. Recently, I decided to give them a shot, because of the good reviews and innovative designs. I had a Commander, PSARK, Mach I, Surefire CQC-8 and Karambit. Currently, only the CQC-8 remains in my collection (and that one is getting $120 worth of work from Ron "sc_rebel" to make it useable). I found the build quality and materials not consistent with the price charged.
The bottom line for me is that my $175 (or so) CQC-8 does not begin to compare with similarly priced knives from other makers, like my MOD CQD I or MT LCC. In fact, I'm not sure the CQC-8 is any better than my $90 Spyderco Military; at least the Millie offers S30V blade steel.
I will carry the 8 when Ron gets through with it, but I won't be buying any more Emersons.
I kept away from Emersons mainly because I prefer tip-down carry. Recently, I decided to give them a shot, because of the good reviews and innovative designs. I had a Commander, PSARK, Mach I, Surefire CQC-8 and Karambit. Currently, only the CQC-8 remains in my collection (and that one is getting $120 worth of work from Ron "sc_rebel" to make it useable). I found the build quality and materials not consistent with the price charged.
The bottom line for me is that my $175 (or so) CQC-8 does not begin to compare with similarly priced knives from other makers, like my MOD CQD I or MT LCC. In fact, I'm not sure the CQC-8 is any better than my $90 Spyderco Military; at least the Millie offers S30V blade steel.
I will carry the 8 when Ron gets through with it, but I won't be buying any more Emersons.
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I've owned 2 CQC7s and never had any problems with them except for the difficulty in sharpening them. I really dislike chisel grinds. I can freehand sharpen any symmetrical or convex edge to shave sharp with no problem, but I could never get my Emersons to shave.
I sold both of them, and while I was interested in a Commander, the tales of liner lock woe have been so many that I gave up. I was looking at Super Commanders and got a Sebenza instead. No wave, but this is a hard use knife. Wicked sharp and easy to sharpen, and the frame lock is hard to beat.
I sold both of them, and while I was interested in a Commander, the tales of liner lock woe have been so many that I gave up. I was looking at Super Commanders and got a Sebenza instead. No wave, but this is a hard use knife. Wicked sharp and easy to sharpen, and the frame lock is hard to beat.