How tough are Randall knives?

[Seriousbladeno1]

My guess is that the O-1 Randalls are less expensive than the stainless ones because O-1 is easier to forge and finish than stainless steel is.

That is very possible what you say,I questioned this just because stainless steels are usually cheaper than carbon steels (of course,depend of maker and so on,as we can see stainless on PUMA,SOLINGEN, HIBBEN,and those ain't cheap knives at all....),but generally stainless comes cheaper.... not within Randalls,maybe really due to forging process...

Someone else have info on this?

 

[marcinek]

That is very possible what you say,I questioned this just because stainless steels are usually cheaper than carbon steels (of course,depend of maker and so on,as we can see stainless on PUMA,SOLINGEN, HIBBEN,and those ain't cheap knives at all....),but generally stainless comes cheaper.... not within Randalls,maybe really due to forging process...

Someone else have info on this?

More info? Indeed.

1) SOLINGEN is not a knife manufacturer. It is a place.
2) The United Cutlery Hibben stainless knives are cheap.
3) Where did you get this "stainless steels are usually cheaper than carbon steels" theory from? I'd love to hear something backing that one up.

 

[Seriousbladeno1]

More info? Indeed.

1) SOLINGEN is not a knife manufacturer. It is a place.
2) The United Cutlery Hibben stainless knives are cheap.
3) Where did you get this "stainless steels are usually cheaper than carbon steels" theory from? I'd love to hear something backing that one up.

1.) [Again, listing link to knief sellers is not alowed unless they are supporting members. Try reading the rules.]

2.) [Yay, Gil HIbbens website, and....? ]

3.) [Links to Amazon are not allowed, sorry]

You are right. Solingen is a place- a home to most famous and high quality European knife manufacturers dating back centuries....

 

[lobo9er]

Randalls are best in carbon steel, but to satisfy their customers, they sell stainless as well.

Right but Randall carbon (O1) will not on this earth out perform premium carbon steels of today... so if I am buying a knife to use why would I buy a Randall if I am going for best performance on the dollar? Now if I stumbled on a Randall at a garage sale for lets say $100 or $200 bucks I'd buy it in a heart beat because that would be a ridiculous investment.

For one I never brought up BUSSE which means you went to my profile looking my post looking for ammo to use against me... kinda weird, I have brought up southfork S90v and bark river 3v, both will out perform a either Randall steels. I also brought BUCK 420hc which I believe is great value steel which would not out perform a Randall stainless or carbon. As for BUSSE I have few and love them also. I am lucky to have tried many knives selling off and buying more and keeping ones I really enjoy. But I am not unrealistic I understand that INFI will be surpassed someday, in fact 3V is pretty awesome stuff too.

This thread was about how tough Randalls are not fit and finish. So anybody want to push a few knives to some comfortable limits and see how Randalls stack up against other knives with "tough" reputations? Or we could be boring and post some charts and see where 400B and O1 look on paper compared to modern steels. Look I love old and new. One of my favorite is a West-Cut Carbon skinner knife of mine takes a wicked thin edge, slice you right to the bone if you aren't careful, but its not gonna hold an edge like 3v, INFI, and don't bother asking about S90v or M4...

 

[Seriousbladeno1]

Right but Randall carbon (O1) will not on this earth out perform premium carbon steels of today... so if I am buying a knife to use why would I buy a Randall if I am going for best performance on the dollar? Now if I stumbled on a Randall at a garage sale for lets say $100 or $200 bucks I'd buy it in a heart beat because that would be a ridiculous investment. For one I never brought up BUSSE, I have brought up southfork S90v and bark river 3v, both will out perform a either Randall steels. I also brought BUCK 420hc which I believe is great value steel. As for BUSSE I have few also. But I am not unrealistic I understand that INFI will be surpassed someday in fact 3V is pretty awesome stuff too. And to the OP Randalls are of course durable but there are far more bomb proof knives made today.

I completely get your point of view lobo9er and allready explained it here for other guys.I do not try in any way to force my opinion on Randalls and steels on you and fully accept it,by understanding your issue you explained...From your point of view you are completely right,for the price tag,you will get knife made out of modern and superior steel to those offered by Randall....there is no doubt.When it comes to craftsmanship - that's a whole another level,but possible? Yes,it is possible-maybe you can get equal or even superior craftsmanship along too,but maybe not....

 

[lobo9er]

I can agree with that for sure, now we're talking fit and finish. Randalls are purty for sure and well made. They were cutting edge stuff. I never called them out for being shotty and would never, they are a solid knife and I would own and use one if I found one at price I was comfortable with. 440B is high carbon stainless and with a good heat treat it is going to hold a good edge same as O1. Same as lots of steel old and new. Lots of beautiful custom knives being made with O1. I apologize if I sounded as if I was calling the material garbage, I'm not at all. I like knives a lot of all sorts and enjoy the debate and conversation.

As for Randalls being "not for me", thats not the case I'm just not going to pay 400-500+ for that blade material. Now if I found one for a spectacular price, received one as a gift or got one in some sorta trade scenario than I would wear it proud, as any of my knives from the fancy ones to an Ozark trail I have had for many many years, made of chinese mystery stainless.

 

[brownshoe]

Please don't generalize about busse fans. I am a busse fan and have always liked and owned Randal knives. And yes there is more to a knife than just the steel.

Sorry it was a joke

Lobo9er sure I glanced at your profile and saw that your second highest forum was the Busse. That's kind of normal in the 21st century I made a joke but it was not to "use against you".

 

[Gaston444]

Always changing steels for the next best thing is NOT what I am talking about. If their stainless steel 440 series knife didn't say Randall theres no way on gods green earth it would sell for what they sell for. They would sell for what well made knives made out of equal material sell for. Their knives do not defy science. They have the edge holding capability of 440B and O1 with a great heat treat. Do you guys think that hasn't been out done in the past 20 years? They have been proven but their performance best has been bested at this point, I guess would be my point.

Your point in my experience is wrong: I have a large custom knife made by RJ Martin in S30V, and Randall's 440B has proved better than that particular S30V. More testing is certainly needed, but the S30V is certainly not superior in any way, because my initial impression (probably much exaggerated) is Randall's 440B blows it away by some margin...

I also think Randall's 440B is better than their 0-1, and many others have said so, although the difference in cutting performance is not huge. Randall is the only maker offering forged stainless, which almost no custom maker offers: Why not enjoy this exclusivity, when forged 0-1 makers are all over the place?

As far as the steel is concerned, the performance of their 440B, and the edge thinness, are the two main reasons to buy Randalls in my opinion, and they are both related to performance: I couldn't care less about their history...: Their performance alone, and their tall edge wear reserve, makes them bargains on the basis of performance, and nothing else.

Gaston

 

[lobo9er]

A knife is more than just steel, as a Busse fan, you may not be capable of understanding that concept.

... sure

Lets not let this drift... OP was talking about Randall "toughness" so lets keep it about just that. We've fleshed out the materials being used, toughness, edge retention of just about every blade material out there is pretty well documented but it would be cool if someone would wanna do some testing. It would be nice to see some more Randalls being used, most reviews are unboxing and fondling on YT.

http://www.simplytoolsteel.com/cold-work-tool-steel-comparison-chart.html
http://www.simplytoolsteel.com/knife-steel-comparison-chart.html

 

[lobo9er]

Randall's 440B has proved better than that particular S30V.

I would like to see the test, that sounds interesting. In which way was the S30V bested? I have no doubt Randall has eek'd out all the performance possible from 440B.

 

[DavLafayette]

I just don't have the same experience than you. For me, 440B is just a very low quality steel, with poor edge retention. It is a pity, at this price.
I have owned few randalls : model 1, model 5, model 12 and the Bushcraft model.
I sold model 14 because its very light weight was not suitable for me. I waited for my model 5 (with 8" blade, 440B) for years. I broke it cutting some wood (the tang just snapped). My first model 12 lost a big chunk of steel just cutting....kindling (O1). They replaced it (their customer service is excellent) and today it seems tough (I tested on hard woods from here and no problem whatsoever), but I don't take it with me when I go hunting because I am afraid to break such a beautiful blades. I live in French Guiana and conditions are really tough here. I supposed I was not lucky with those Randalls, it is a pity because this brand is a myth.

 

[Cobalt]

Sorry it was a joke

Lobo9er sure I glanced at your profile and saw that your second highest forum was the Busse. That's kind of normal in the 21st century I made a joke but it was not to "use against you".

No problem. I am a Busse forum member and think they put out a level of blade that is incredible. But I have also purchased many other fine custom knives and many Randal knives.

 

[bdmicarta]

Randall's 440B blows it away by some margin...

We are talking about "tough" knives but people are bringing up steels that have better edge retention but are not as tough. If tough is what you want, you have to understand that ultimate edge retention will not be as good. A more mundane steel can be tougher than a high end steel that is known for its edgeholding.

Most of us propbably remember the hockey-mask destructive testing of various knives. I remember a low priced stainless steel knife sold by a store that cost less than dirt, the manufacturers were so ashamed of the steel that they would not identify what it was on the knife, but the knife did very well in the destruction test. This told me that a modest steel with a modest hardness could be very tough.

 

[Gaston444]

I sharpen all my knives to around 12 degrees per side, 24 inclusive, and use this for chopping maple: Randall's thin 0.020" edges will withstand, without any damage, an infinite amount of chopping maple, even at this angle and thinness: The RJ Martin in S30V had a much thicker 0.040" edge, more open to 15 degrees per side or more, and it immediately showed some tendency to wire edge in the wood...

There are mitigating factors that require further testing: Thicker edges decelerate harder and may yaw more while chopping, which raises the stress on the apex: Ironically, thinner edges at sharper angles may be more stable in the wood when they hit, decelerating more gently, and thus overall looking "tougher" and more "damage proof"...

Also the S30V knife's combination of sabre grind hollow grind and thick edge showed some tendency to "glance" in the V, which may have caused the rapid edge damage.

There is also the fact the S30V knife was heavier by 50% than the 440B Randall Model 12, so there was more energy available to cause edge damage: The bigger knife did out-chop the Model 12...

But this can be put in the following perspective: The Model 12 has had thousands of chops into it, and never exhibited any edge damage other than slight dulling, while in just a few dozen chops, with a thicker edge and a more open angle, things went south immediately for the S30V knife...: Not an absolute proof of the inferiority of S30V, but definitely not an indication of superiority to say the least...

I did have a similar 440C knife (to the S30V RJ Martin) by top quality maker V. Neeley, and that 440C was the worst 440C I ever experienced: Even with an edge 3 times thicker than the Randall, its edge immediately crumbled in several different ways, just on chopping wood, and despite over 15 per side angles...

440C is very difficult to heat treat properly, and it is known to be unforgiving. Plus it is made in a large variety of places, so unless you are careful about the source, it can be all over the place in "cleanness"...

The idea that 440C is inherently a second-rate material is just laughable: It still has many industrial applications for which there are no substitutes, is know to be among the most shape-stable of all steels, and in at least one edge-holding test I saw sixteen years ago -the most comprehensive I ever saw in terms of methods: all purpose-built blades- it put the new generation of powder steels to shame, including CPM-3V. The only steel that even came close was D-2, and coincidentally that steel is also for me the only one to match Randall's 440B "unkillability" at thin edge angles on wood...

I have long lost all interest in "super steels" since... As was abundantly demonstrated, almost none of them offer anything that can reliably be perceived by a knife user. I won't go and outright say they are not close, or even the odd one very slightly better, but I would always choose 440C over all of them if any choice is available...

Gaston

 

[Seriousbladeno1]

I sharpen all my knives to around 12 degrees per side, 24 inclusive, and use this for chopping maple: Randall's thin 0.020" edges will withstand, without any damage, an infinite amount of chopping maple, even at this angle and thinness: The RJ Martin in S30V had a much thicker 0.040" edge, more open to 15 degrees per side or more, and it immediately showed some tendency to wire edge in the wood...

There are mitigating factors that require further testing: Thicker edges decelerate harder and may yaw more while chopping, which raises the stress on the apex: Ironically, thinner edges at sharper angles may be more stable in the wood when they hit, decelerating more gently, and thus overall looking "tougher" and more "damage proof"...

Also the S30V knife's combination of sabre grind hollow grind and thick edge showed some tendency to "glance" in the V, which may have caused the rapid edge damage.

There is also the fact the S30V knife was heavier by 50% than the 440B Randall Model 12, so there was more energy available to cause edge damage: The bigger knife did out-chop the Model 12...

But this can be put in the following perspective: The Model 12 has had thousands of chops into it, and never exhibited any edge damage other than slight dulling, while in just a few dozen chops, with a thicker edge and a more open angle, things when south immediately for the S30V knife...: Not an absolute proof of the inferiority of S30V, but definitely not an indication of superiority to say the least...

I did have a similar 440C knife (to the S30V RJ Martin) by top quality maker V. Neeley, and that 440C was the worst 440C I ever experienced: Even with an edge 3 times thicker than the Randall, its edge immediately crumbled in several different ways, just on chopping wood, and despite over 15 per side angles...

440C is very difficult to heat treat properly, and it is known to be unforgiving. Plus it is made in a large variety of places, so unless you are careful about the source, it can be all over the place in "cleanness"...

The idea that 440C is inherently a second-rate material is just laughable: It still has many industrial applications for which there are no substitutes, is know to be among the most shape-stable of all steels, and in at least one edge-holding test I saw sixteen years ago -the most comprehensive I ever saw in terms of methods: all purpose-built blades- it put the new generation of powder steels to shame, including CPM-3V. The only steel that even came close was D-2, and coincidentally that steel is also for me the only one to match Randall's 440B "unkillability" at thin edge angles on wood...

I have long lost all interest in "super steels" since... As was abundantly demonstrated, almost none of them offer anything that can reliably be perceived by a knife user. I won't go and outright say they are not close, or even the odd one very slightly better, but I would always choose 440C over all of them if any choice is available...

Gaston

Thank you very much, this is for me so far, one of the most interesting and I think reliable posts regarding steel comparisons - related to Randalls and 440B's and C's..very, very great input here! Keep your posts coming please

 

[NGC80]

I bought my first Randall- a model 18- prior to going o-seas in the early 70s. I used it throughout 17 years of military service, and continue to use it doing search and rescue. I just turned 59, and so my model 18 has been in use 40 years. I believe that I meet your "beat the hell out of it" criteria, although I never used it as a pry bar or anything else a knife isn't made for. Edge retention is excellent. I kept it cleaned and lubed, but it spent a lot of time in the water without appreciable rust or corrosion. I have since acquired several more Randalls, and been happy with their performance as well.

 

[marcinek]

I believe that I meet your "beat the hell out of it" criteria, ....

What exactly that criteria is has never been established by the OP. It seems he doesn't baton, but does expect a knife to stab through a can of beans. And that the long history of use of Randalls on the battlefield does not meet the criterion.

I asked in the second post of this thread a couple weeks ago, and it has yet to be answered. (still)

 

[lobo9er]

And that the long history of use of Randalls on the battlefield does not meet the criterion.

Randalls long history does not trump the off the chart toughness of steels like 3v, INFI, or Z-wear or Ztuff. 01 and 440b are fantastic and work great but metallurgy has progressed. Its doesn't lessen their effectiveness, there are just tougher more effective steels in 2015. Its not insulting.

 

[marcinek]

Its not insulting.

Who said it was?

 

[The cow]

Ask yourself what you plan on doing with it. Randall makes a very good KNIFE given their long history with outdoorsmen and military.
Things will get a bit hairy when you get in the realm of the youtube survivalist which use their knives in a very different capacity like heavy duty chopping/batoning/prying.