How Tough are the Tri-Ad™ Lock Knives Compared to the Usual Suspects?

[FlaMtnBkr]

Thanks, Ankerson.

As I said, I'm not — for the most part — a folder person (mostly fixed blades), so I haven't kept up with the latest advancements. I'd heard of the Tri-Ad locks, but without a frame of reference — such as comparing them to a known standard such as a lock-back — I have no way of knowing just how much stronger they might be.

I have used a few Buck lock-backs, but I've never had one fail, perhaps because I've never stressed one to that degree.

The reason that I asked is because I designed a folder for a company, and used a lock-back in the design. I figured that their excellent head engineer would have me change it if it were a real problem. I used it because it's an old, proven, easy to produce system. I'm sure they can't license the Tri-Ad system, since it seems to be all locked up (yes, it was a pun), but I was wondering just how much we were giving up in strength and reliability.

Is there any way to quantify just how much stronger a system like the Tri-Ad is than the lock-back? Twice as strong? Ten times as strong?

Curious.

I think that is a hard question to answer. The Triad is basically a modified back lock that adds a stop pin that forces are transfered to instead of the back lock components. It depends on how beefy everything is made in the folder. A Spyderco Manix, a very beefy lock back, might hold half as much weight before failure as the American lawman which is one of the lighter duty Triad lock knives. But one of the big over built Triad folders might be 10, maybe even 20, times as strong as your run of the mill Buck 110. I am basing this on how much weight can probably be hung on the blade before failure. In actual use it would be a little more difficult to put a number on it since there isn't a good way to measure anything for comparison.

 

[dawsonbob]

Thanks, guys. It sounds like the Tri-Ad is substantially stronger than the lock-back.

Not trying to derail the thread, but since the Tri-Ad is out for our purposes, what do you think would be the next (non-proprietary lock) in line for strength?

 

[Ankerson]

Thanks, guys. It sounds like the Tri-Ad is substantially stronger than the lock-back.

Not trying to derail the thread, but since the Tri-Ad is out for our purposes, what do you think would be the next (non-proprietary lock) in line for strength?

I would guess either the Axis Lock (Ultra Lock) then a well designed Frame Lock like Strider/ Hinderer.

That said, Spyderco knows how make a strong lock back and the Older Cold Steel Rocker Locks were excellent (EX.. Voyagers).

 

[hardheart]

I guess people do have a reason to want overbuilt folder

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8354626&postcount=2

or maybe not?

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8357885&postcount=79

But it's ok, we don't need an excuse/reason to buy what we want

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8354546&postcount=12

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

Thanks, guys. It sounds like the Tri-Ad is substantially stronger than the lock-back.

Not trying to derail the thread, but since the Tri-Ad is out for our purposes, what do you think would be the next (non-proprietary lock) in line for strength?

The AXIS, Triad, compression, and ball bearing lock are IMO the strongest locks out there right now, but are all patented. The back lock and frame lock are probably the strongest that don't have a patent. A back lock can be pretty darn strong if made right and with a beefy pivot a pin for the back lock bar. The interface between the blade tang and back lock bar needs to be designed well so that pressure on the blade doesn't cause the bar to try and unlock. If it is done correctly it can actual pull the back lock bar tighter instead of in the unlocked direction. A frame lock is probably easier to do correctly and can also be pretty darn strong as it is used by a lot of the companies known for 'heavy duty'. If the company you designed the knife for is a well known one they can probably do both well. The frame lock uses a stop pin to transfer positive blade forces to the liners and is probably the stronger of the two.

 

[Aku]

Is it me or....is anyone sick of the following....

1. Tri ad lock threads
2. andrew demko threads
3. See the previous 2.

I mean come on ok its a good lock and a few of you own his custom knives...MOVE ON. No matter how good the lock is...it's still a cold steel product, which means it will NEVER be at the TOP of the knife world. Demko customs ok their built "ford tough" now what? Again though there is no need to beat the life out of a folder when fixed blades are available.

Its must just be you sir...yes fixed blades are available but enless someone is a mountain man i dont expect one to be edc'ing a fixed blade, many knife carriers in noraml society carry pocked knifes(folding knives). We all know what a valuable tool a knife can be. So why wouldnt one want the strongest most durable tool one could obtain and carry in one's pocket?

Infact youve inspired me to start a new thread about my own personal Demko custom

 

[dawsonbob]

The AXIS, Triad, compression, and ball bearing lock are IMO the strongest locks out there right now, but are all patented. The back lock and frame lock are probably the strongest that don't have a patent. A back lock can be pretty darn strong if made right and with a beefy pivot a pin for the back lock bar. The interface between the blade tang and back lock bar needs to be designed well so that pressure on the blade doesn't cause the bar to try and unlock. If it is done correctly it can actual pull the back lock bar tighter instead of in the unlocked direction. A frame lock is probably easier to do correctly and can also be pretty darn strong as it is used by a lot of the companies known for 'heavy duty'. If the company you designed the knife for is a well known one they can probably do both well. The frame lock uses a stop pin to transfer positive blade forces to the liners and is probably the stronger of the two.

Thanks for the really good explanation. I've been into fixed blades, but this is my first locking folder and, to tell the truth, I'm kind of counting on them to make the decision on the lock mechanism.

The company is Becker/KA-BAR, so I certainly think they have the necessary expertise in lock design.

The knife in question is a fairly beefy folding version of the BK-2. Here's a pic of the concept rough. Disregard the fact that there's no grind: it's just a rough.

I designed it with a lock-back, but that can be changed if they want.

 

[Ankerson]

Thanks for the really good explanation. I've been into fixed blades, but this is my first locking folder and, to tell the truth, I'm kind of counting on them to make the decision on the lock mechanism.

The company is Becker/KA-BAR, so I certainly think they have the necessary expertise in lock design.

The knife in question is a fairly beefy folding version of the BK-2. Here's a pic of the concept rough. Disregard the fact that there's no grind: it's just a rough.

I designed it with a lock-back, but that can be changed if they want.

Can't wait to see that one. :thumbup:

 

[dawsonbob]

Can't wait to see that one. :thumbup:

Funny, I think you've mentioned that before, and you're not the only one.

We're still waiting on word from Ethan on this one.

 

[GrinderMcgee]

For many of us, a pocket knife may not need to be overbuilt to the level of the Triad to satisy the every day.

I am amazed at the advantages of this mechanism on the larger knives that are so popular with the CS line(Demko designs).

The X2 Voyager was the big boy in the past. It would hold 120 lbs and flex like crazy before giving out. Still, it was an extremely popular lock back and can take some force.

There is nothing that could make me believe a Rajah I or XL Espada could have a liner lock or standard rocker and last for years and hunderds/thousands of openings, let alone the kind of extremities Andrew subjects them to in his R&D.

 

[A.P.F.]

Thanks, guys. It sounds like the Tri-Ad is substantially stronger than the lock-back.

Not trying to derail the thread, but since the Tri-Ad is out for our purposes, what do you think would be the next (non-proprietary lock) in line for strength?

I agree with Ankerson in that the Axis lock would be the next strongest lock that is well proven. I am partial to Buck's lock backs, because they have been doing it for a long time.

Throughout all this discourse, one would do well to remember that the necessary force to bring any well made lock to failure is unlikely to be realized. If you think that such forces are a possibility, a fixed blade would be in order.

 

[A.P.F.]

I would be all over that like white on rice.

 

[OrangeJoe]

I agree with Ankerson in that the Axis lock would be the next strongest lock that is well proven. I am partial to Buck's lock backs, because they have been doing it for a long time.

Throughout all this discourse, one would do well to remember that the necessary force to bring any well made lock to failure is unlikely to be realized. If you think that such forces are a possibility, a fixed blade would be in order.

If you search for frame lock failures you will quickly come up with at least one article by a respected member of the knife community indicating many well regarded framelocks give out at 60-65 pounds.

I do not think that a 65 lb force on the lock under heavy use is an unlikely thing.

BTW, I know:
-we are supposed to treat them all like slipjoints.
-I don't NEED to hang 600lb from my knife (I EDC an Endura)
-framelocks are nice for the simple elegance of design (just ordered the Ti framelock JYDII).

 

[chanwahyaoh]

all I know is that if I needed to use 100+ lbs of force - it's probably something I shouldn't be cutting with a knife. Maybe a torch/plasma cutter.

 

[Cotherion]

Thanks, Ankerson.

As I said, I'm not — for the most part — a folder person (mostly fixed blades), so I haven't kept up with the latest advancements. I'd heard of the Tri-Ad locks, but without a frame of reference — such as comparing them to a known standard such as a lock-back — I have no way of knowing just how much stronger they might be.

I have used a few Buck lock-backs, but I've never had one fail, perhaps because I've never stressed one to that degree.

The reason that I asked is because I designed a folder for a company, and used a lock-back in the design. I figured that their excellent head engineer would have me change it if it were a real problem. I used it because it's an old, proven, easy to produce system. I'm sure they can't license the Tri-Ad system, since it seems to be all locked up (yes, it was a pun), but I was wondering just how much we were giving up in strength and reliability.

Is there any way to quantify just how much stronger a system like the Tri-Ad is than the lock-back? Twice as strong? Ten times as strong?

Curious.

I always though it is possible to quantify. If I find out the material properties of what is being used then can breakdown the bending moment. Got to do with shear resistance also.

Old conventional design lockbacks can be made much stronger by using larger pivot pins for the lockbar and beef up the lockbar's notch and blade's catch...

 

[Cotherion]

Thanks, guys. It sounds like the Tri-Ad is substantially stronger than the lock-back.

Not trying to derail the thread, but since the Tri-Ad is out for our purposes, what do you think would be the next (non-proprietary lock) in line for strength?

Well other's say Axis (which is strong) but I have always a soft spot for Spyderco's compression lock. Easy to construct and no omega springs to worry about.

Maybe some of you guys can patent a spring which pushes a bar wedging the blade into open position. The bar is spring pushed and it wedges between the blade "notch" and a super thick stop pin. Unlocking is by a tab which is connected to the bar and is exposed. Think Cold Steel's ram lock meets Axis.

 

[Cotherion]

Well other's say Axis (which is strong) but I have always a soft spot for Spyderco's compression lock. Easy to construct and no omega springs to worry about.

Ram lock is very strong and is not too difficult design. Maybe can get permission to use a good lock's design from maker?

 

[hardheart]

here's some posts on the matter, some probably more helpful than others.

Sal from '06 - unable to get liner & frame locks into VHD/MBC territory
http://spyderco.com/forums/showpost.php?p=299272&postcount=4

Military possibly hitting 4-500 pounds (in line with heavy duty rating for this blade length)
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7967409&postcount=23

200 pound negative load on axis lock. Not very useful without a distance from the pivot
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7963898&postcount=1

LCT claiming that CRKT LAWKS knives can fail at 45-75 pounds
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6478197&postcount=1

Yojimbo (compression lock) achieving MBC rating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2788694&postcount=7

frame locks with thin cutouts failing at 65-68 pounds, liner locks making it to 100-130 pounds (distance not given)
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8289049&postcount=18

possible 2000 lbs on axis, 1000+ on manix
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4234759&postcount=77

500 newtons (112 pounds) applied to different knives, distance and axis of applied force not given
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4192211&postcount=63

Chinook again claimed 700 pounds
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2211048&postcount=44

400 pounds for the Sebenza, distance from pivot not given
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4578366&postcount=4

 

[dawsonbob]

I agree with Ankerson in that the Axis lock would be the next strongest lock that is well proven. I am partial to Buck's lock backs, because they have been doing it for a long time.

Throughout all this discourse, one would do well to remember that the necessary force to bring any well made lock to failure is unlikely to be realized. If you think that such forces are a possibility, a fixed blade would be in order.

You've hit on something really important in my consideration of various locks, A.P.F.. I of course want something super strong, but there comes a point of absurdity in what's expected of a folder, a point where one should be using a fixed blade, period.

I want the knife to be exceedingly sturdy/robust/reliable, but in what I expect (hope) to be a sub $100 knife, manufacturing costs have to weigh heavily in my design. Licensing a lock that would add enormously to the retail price probably wouldn't fly with the manufacturer if there's a less costly — but almost as strong — proven design available.

This thing is supposed to be a rough, tough, reliable knife that people can afford.

 

[dawsonbob]

I would be all over that like white on rice.

Thanks, A.P.F.. It's gotten very positive reactions so far.