How tough are these traditional folders?

I read some time back that the slip joint knife design was the strongest of all pocket knife designs. It seems to make sense if your cutting and the force is on the tempered spring vs a stop bar of other designs. Locks were not all that common in my day other than Bucks, Pumas, Case made a few. I always considered lock blades more of a fighting knife or a unnecessary luxury. A lot of guys carried Buck Lock-backs over in Vietnam Then came along BenchMade, Spyderco etc.
All things prove themselves over time.

Thanks,
 
These old slippies will work just fine as tools. If you want it to be an axe or a pry bar it won't happen. Make no mistake (and Jacknife will tell you) these knives are designed to cut and are cutting tools. Treat them as such. The older generations knew what a knife was and what it was not. These "hard use" folders around today are just a marketing tool to sell what should be an axe or pry bar, not a knife. Slip-joints are great at what they do. Sorry if I sound like some ranting maniac, but I've recently viewed some Youtube videos with all kinds of wrong being done to otherwise fine cutting tools. I have even seen the destruction of a perfectly good tree. The guy broke the knife and wondered why. I wish the tree had fallen on him.
 
Regarding lateral and vertical play, a little play will not affect the function of the knife whatsoever. I bought a used Victorinox classic for $3. The blade was pretty loose, but I only noticed it when I was looking for play, not when I was using the knife. The thing sliced though cardboard, cut open clamshell packs, and destroyed zip ties as well as a new knife. Even if the blade develops play, it's still got lots of life in it.
 
To clarify, when I speak of hard use i don't mean abuse. Not prying for example, but perhaps if while carving my blade gets stuck and I have to twist it a bit to get it loose will a traditionally pinned blade loosen up and develop play any faster than a modern screwed pivot?
 
With a screwed pivot you can tighten it should the need arise. Not the same with pinned pivots. Will it develop play faster or more severe? In my humble experience it has been no better and no worse. My SAK keeps going with no signs of blade play. I have tacticals that have loosened up from getting stuck, but my SAKs have not. It could be that I put more leverage into a tactical without thinking about it. My older Spyderco knives didn't develop any play for a very long time and they are all pinned and not adjustable. You should be fine with a quality slip joint.
 
This is an interesting conversation for me. I been bringing a few different folders with me to work (accompanying my GEC 85). Of note is my case mini-trapper with yellow handles and cv blades. I been using it hard, specifically. cutting into wooden crates and forcing the blade..not prying but definitely twisting and leveraging it out when it gets stuck. And lo and behold it has developed some blade play. I suspect that if i was handier around the workshop i could probably tighten the knife and undo the wobble that i caused.

is this the fault of the knife or the user? Both probably, i started doing this very thing with my GEC and it has not developed any issues, but and upon thinking about this, i have stopped doing it, i was trying to subject the mini-trapper to the same amount of stress to compare. I have to say the gec held up better and the steel seems to be a bit harder since i've not noticed any real deterioration in the edge where i definitely have noticed it in the case cv.

just for the record i have done the very same with my one handed folder, which doesn't cut as deep or as well (thicker blade) and i've had to tighten the screw a bit, but i doubt that surprises anyone.

now, what did i learn...well i learned both knives would do all i asked and more (surprisingly so, which seems to be the theme of this thread) while asking this much of a knife is perhaps a bit silly on my part. Also, many people think GEC's are overbuilt, but that's perhaps a good thing. I also learned that GEC's 1095 seems to hold a slightly, but noticeably better edge than case's cv, but the cv is more than serviceable at least for my needs.
 
I find that traditional-style knives just require a small adjustment to how you think about them. It's simply a different way of thinking. If it gets loose, just tap it tight again, instead of reaching for a little tiny precision torx driver.
 
This is an interesting conversation for me. I been bringing a few different folders with me to work (accompanying my GEC 85). Of note is my case mini-trapper with yellow handles and cv blades. I been using it hard, specifically. cutting into wooden crates and forcing the blade..not prying but definitely twisting and leveraging it out when it gets stuck. And lo and behold it has developed some blade play. I suspect that if i was handier around the workshop i could probably tighten the knife and undo the wobble that i caused.

Somebody is going to say you were abusing the knife.

I don't think so.

Knives get used for twisting and prying all the time. The only question is, to my mind, is the knife designed to handle it or not. The famous KaBar fixed blade (aka the Mark 2 fighting knife) won out over its predecessors in large measure to the design being better at being used to pry open crates and rations, among other things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KA-BAR

Unfortunately, one can't easily walk around town with a beefy 5" fixed blade. But, among the folders I've used, the only one that could take this sort of "abuse" is the Opinel.
 
Disclaimer: little joke intended to change perspective on the subject. :rolleyes:

Last night, out of my door, I heard a conversation between my resolza and my Case Swayback jack.
"so, how's the neighbour's slipjoint? his name's Barlow, isn't it?"
"yes, that's his name...he's not too happy. He says his owner does not cut with an effective movement, and gets tired of cutting pretty soon. Also, apparently, the man doesn't have much to cut in his life, and is not good at sharpening, so Barlow gets more scratches and bites than he thinks he should get"
"weird that the slipjoint mentioned that...I think I saw his owner browse the internet for one of those locking folders with 1/6 stock blade, and saying that he needs a stronger knife"
"mmmmm...please don't tell it to Barlow...it will either get angry, or disappointed. He keeps saying that, 50 years ago, knives like him used to cut all day long, and got owners who cared for them, sharpened them just fine, and were loyal to them...I will pretend I heard nothing of what you just told me"
"yes, we're lucky on our own...Fausto doesn't have much to cut either, but at least he uses us with respect (you more outside the house, myself more indoors) and doesn't complain at all about our job. Yes, he's not good at sharpening either, but he's trying to learn..."

I don't know what each of us means by "tough". I think that knives (as many other tools) can take much more work than we think, and the problem usually lies in improper use, or insecurity of the owner.
For a short time, I was hit by the same bug, then I learned better. :)
I don't whittle myself, but as for cutting, don't worry about the toughness of traditionals. Chances are, they're tougher than you and me :rolleyes:

Fausto
:cool:
 
I must be a freak of nature. Been carrying a pocketknife for probably 35 years, and I've never had one develope blade play. To read these forums, few and far between are the production knives without it! But for all the Schrade, Gerber, Buck, Case, Victorinox, Spyderco and so forth that I've toted -- no blade play. Must be one of those new-fangled maladies like ADD.

-- Mark
 
I must be a freak of nature. Been carrying a pocketknife for probably 35 years, and I've never had one develope blade play. To read these forums, few and far between are the production knives without it! But for all the Schrade, Gerber, Buck, Case, Victorinox, Spyderco and so forth that I've toted -- no blade play. Must be one of those new-fangled maladies like ADD.

-- Mark

Good point Mark, same here. I was just reading your post, thinking we'd been using knives about the same length of time. Then I did the maths in my head and realised I'd have to add another 10 years! :eek: At least I've not forgotten my name yet! :D
 
I must be a freak of nature. Been carrying a pocketknife for probably 35 years, and I've never had one develope blade play. To read these forums, few and far between are the production knives without it! But for all the Schrade, Gerber, Buck, Case, Victorinox, Spyderco and so forth that I've toted -- no blade play. Must be one of those new-fangled maladies like ADD.

-- Mark

I'm with you, been carrying since the age of 6, 1978- today everyday with a slipjoint in the pocket none of mine have developed any play, and I still have my very first knife still in excellent working order.
 
Alright, alright... keep the jokes family oriented... But I'm open to the possibility that I'm doing it wrong...

I've owned a bunch of Ulster BSA knives since I was 8. They use the Swinden key construction and are prone to developing play. A lot written on that.

When I was in high school, I got a Buck 110 and bought the "hype" that it was designed to be used like a fixed blade. I've not shied away from pushing hard on a knife like that. Cutting brush is one place where I'll definitely put a lot of steady hard pressure on a blade of a locking folder, just like I would with a fixed blade. Not pounding. Not batonning. But steady hard pressure.

One used Buck that I own came to me with vertical play. It was diagnosed by Buck as having worn lock intends on the blade.

3 other newer Bucks I've owned developed various amounts of vertical play (and a bit of lateral play) doing yard work. One got real loose after only a year. Somewhere along the line, Buck changed the materials of their blade bushings from steel to bronze and there's some speculation and discussion that this could be a contributing factor. I'm not alone in seeing more modern Buck's develop some vertical play it would seem.

I'm envious (seriously) of people who have the skill and patience to use a traditionally peened folder without causing play to develop. Judging from discussions I've seen on this and other forums, I suspect I'm not alone in causing my knives to loosen up. Abusive? <shrug> Hard on knives certainly.

FWIW, I'm hard on skis but very easy on bikes and I've worked on enough to know the difference. I'm hard on boots but easy on packs.

It would be interesting to learn how common fixed blades were 50 or 100 years ago among working men. I suspect they were much more common, which would have taken a lot of the pressure off of slip joints. Hard jobs could be done with the fixed blade. That's just not my reality. If I'm out working in the yard, it's just not reasonable (socially) for me to be toting a fixed blade on my knife. Just isn't. So I carry a folder and push it hard.
 
...
I'm envious (seriously) of people who have the skill and patience to use a traditionally peened folder without causing play to develop. Judging from discussions I've seen on this and other forums, I suspect I'm not alone in causing my knives to loosen up. ...
It would be interesting to learn how common fixed blades were 50 or 100 years ago among working men. I suspect they were much more common, which would have taken a lot of the pressure off of slip joints. Hard jobs could be done with the fixed blade. That's just not my reality. If I'm out working in the yard, it's just not reasonable (socially) for me to be toting a fixed blade on my knife. Just isn't. So I carry a folder and push it hard.

i do this from time to time also, cut brush or woody vines with a folding knife. usually because its a situation where its only one or two things to cut and its too far to walk back to the vehicle for a machete. so far the #7 opinel has not gotten wobbly. but most of the time i use a machete with a two-foot blade for this sort of thing. much easier to cut brush with a machete.
 
Pinnah, I think fixed blades where used much more decades ago. I wonder why they are not used as much now? Perhaps a social stigma? I have caught myself not carrying one because I dont deam it appropriete for my surroundings, but why should it matter? Who really cares? I am truelly interested in answers, not trying to be a jerk.
 
And with a single brush stroke, Jack nails it perfectly. :thumbup:

In our grandpa's time, these knives were used as pocket pocket knives. Cutting open a burlap grain sack of feed, cutting a piece of rope, cutting a 'chaw' off a thick plug of Kentucky twist, cutting a nice firm piece of chicken liver to go on a hook while cat fish hunting, cutting..., well you get the idea, it was a cutting tool. It was carried around in a pocket a lot, and used now and then for things that needed to be separated but was too strong to be ripped or torn apart. It was a dedicated cutting tool that was carried a lot, but used now and then. This is why handles were smooth curves that didn't wear holes on pockets of work overalls, or uniforms. These men took very great care of their tools, no matter if it was a set of wrenches, a hammer, screw driver, or wood plane. They didn't use a wrench as a hammer, nor a screw driver as a pry bar if there was a real pry bar in the tool chest. Oh yes, there were some of what the young guys call a 'hard use' knife around. Lots of servicemen came home with a Camillus TL-29 in a pocket, or an issue MKL, or what was called a demo knife. In the 50's and 60's I saw a lot of well worn old TL-29's that were still in use by the soldier who 'liberated' it from the army. My Uncle Charlie used his for decades, after he came home from a long walk from a beach in France to Germany. He only retired it when I came home on leave with a new 'libertated' Camillus TL-29 from our supply room. He was a bit disdainful of the new one's plastic handle though.

When grandpa went hunting, he took his 'hunting knife'. Sometimes it may have been a Case little finn with the stacked leather washer handle like I saw a great deal of growing up, or maybe one of those German stag handled Edge Pro's that were popular in the 50's. The hunting knife was made for the 'huntin' so it was used for such. Right tool for the job kind of thing. That was a popular mindset in those days, the right tool for the job. If you had something to do, and the pocket knife was small for the job, then you used a bigger took. A sheath knife, a machete, hatchet, was used.

My own dad was a perfect example of this. Before he left for school a few years before WW2, being the very first one in his family to do so, his mother gave him a nice little pocket knife that was more appropriate in her mind for a suit wearing academic of that era. The gift meant a lot to him because of the sentiment, so he used the knife gently as a cutting tool only. That knife went everywhere with him for the next 40 years, and he only retired it not long before his death from leukemia in 1981. It was a cutting tool. I grew up seeing him use that knife for all his cutting jobs that a pocket knife can be asked to do. But if it got too heavy duty, he had a cut down English machete he kept in his car that he called his bushwhacker. That was his 'heavy duty' knife. It had a 9 inch sheepfoot blade and a canvas sheath, and was the beater knife. Around the house he had a beat up Stanley utility knife for things he knew would mess up his mothers Case Peanut.

The old pocket knives that grandpa used ere marketed as fine cutting tools. They were not marketed as end of the world disaster tools, combat knives, survival knives, automobile crash rescue tools, or any other tool that could used for things an over active imagination could dream up. They were carried by delivery truck drivers, farm hands, tradesmen, warehouse clerks, paperboys, church deacons, and everyone who had a pair of pants on. And in those day, if a man had his pants on, you could make a good bet that a pocket knife was in there someplace. Probably the most common of all pocket knives I saw growing up, was the typical serpentine jack about 3 1/4 inches closed, with two blades. Somehow, with that kind of life, most men in the years before and after WW2 managed to live a good life, survive a war, and raise a family in the knew phenomenon of the American suburban landscape.

A good pocket knife will last you most of the rest of your life if treated like a knife.

Carl.

Carl,

I can (and do) read your posts for hours at a time. I feel like it lets me live a little bit of what you've seen. Thanks for another great post my friend. I love reading them so much.

-David
 
Knife knuts (I include myself here)are in serious danger of developing a condition common to wood carvers. This affliction is known as "the worship of tools." It has already been referred to as a "cult" in these forums. I know of carvers who having labored long to sharpen their gouges, after spending a fair bit to get good ones, are apprehensive about using them, lest they get dull and need re sharpening and in the repeated process be worn away.

I really think that there is a significant difference between taking care of tools by not abusing them, and starting to worship them. They are not sacred objects guys! (Do I hear someone or a group of someones gasp and mutter "heresy, the man speaks heresy?!")

My opinion is that they are tools that are meant to be used - at least the good ones are. If they can't be used without falling apart, then they are junk. When I first became aware of Swinden key construction, about 25 years ago, because my Schrade knives were loosening up, (Schrade replaced them with letters of apology), I quit buying knives made that way. I am a firm believer in the truth of the statement that says - "A knife is the least effective and most expensive pry bar that you will ever own." I do not pry with knives and do not baton much and never with folding knives. Axes and machetes were invented for a reason. I do cut with knives pretty aggressively (I am not called Mr. Chips for nothing), and they have loosened a bit sometimes. A tap or two fixes that, but the Swinden key system baffles the tapper. Think what you want about the current crop of "Schrades" made offshore but they have given up on that wretched system, and are in my opinion anyway, better than anything made with that name in the last 40 years and stand up to the way I work. Older Schrades are pretty awesome though.

Often I modify non collectible knives to make them better for my purposes. This involves belt sanders etc., which absolutely horrifies some people. I encounter all kinds of people in the course of my activities as a carving/sharpening instructor who are afraid that they will ruin their knife by sharpening it on a stone.

Fear not! Verily, if thou do wreck the knife (very unlikely) and learn to sharpen in the process, you have gained much, and the tool will have given its life to teach you. Be thankful and go on to be fruitful in the world in a way that a person who doesn't have a knife, or has a dull one, or verily is terrified of hurting the one he does have will never be.

Your knife is a tool. Use it!
 
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