How tough are these traditional folders?

These traditional folders have a couple of things going for them in the toughness department. First, they cut with much less effort than a "tougher" tactical folder. I've made cuts with a Schrade Peanut that my Benchmade TSEK just could not make. I didn't have the leverage to push it through the cut, but the Peanut made it and a few more like it. This lower effort means they won't get leaned on as hard as other knives.

Another thing is, for the life of me, I can't think of anything that needs prying that can be pryed with a 1/16" blade, which is in the range of the slipjoint folders I've used. About the best I can see is using a blade like this to remove staples at the office. It's like my RADA Cutlery kitchen knives. The blades are about 0.03" thick, thus eliminating the failure mode for most broken tips; prying. They just can't do it.

That said, I abused the hell out of some slipjoints in my youth, throwing them and such. They held up, and would have been usable had I not broken the tips on most of them.

The steels are wide open, so edge holding and blade toughness can equal any other knife, geometry limits aside. If one goes the custom route, they can have any steel you want, though I prefer a select few for reasons of tradition. I'd actually like to see a trapper or stockman with differnt steels for different blades. Say D2 for the spey blade, and some high hardness 52100 or Hitachi White for the clip blade.
 
rockgolfer said:
Pinnah, I think fixed blades where used much more decades ago. I wonder why they are not used as much now? Perhaps a social stigma? I have caught myself not carrying one because I dont deam it appropriete for my surroundings, but why should it matter? Who really cares? I am truelly interested in answers, not trying to be a jerk.
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Fixed blade knives, (how I hate that designation) or sheath knives as they were called when I was growing up, were indeed more common. It was not at all unusual for working men to have a small sheath knife on their belt. It was almost universally a stacked leather handle with a birds beak pommel, and made by Case, Western, or Kabar. Blades were about 3 inches to 3 1/2 inches, and were used for the hard or dirty jobs. Even a 3 inch bladed little finn can take a lot more hard use than any folder.

I felt blessed when I got to spend time down at the family place on Marylands eastern shore. It was a total blue collar area, with working watermen, farmers, and hunters, not all of them legal. The local store where a group of them hung out had a bunch that included a professional trapper, a outlaw poacher, a couple of handymen, and a sometimes employed marine mechanic. Going about ones business in town in those days, it was so common to see a leather handle sheath knife on a belt, that nobody blinked an eye. This was the late 1940's to 1950's. Everyone had a small two blade jack in a pocket, and it was used for small everyday cutting jobs. But the sheath knife was there for the heavy duty stuff on a construction site, boat deck, or farm.

Times changed, and in the 1960's the Buck 110 made folding knives a more universal item. The heavy duty folder was born in that era of change. Buck, Gerber folding sportsmen, and Buck clones all were the granddaddy's of todays folders. I'm not at all sure it was for the better. To me, the pocket knife is still a city or town knife. I'll still belt on a sheath knife if I go woods walking, canoeing, or have some heavier or dirty cutting to do. Simpler tool and I don't have to worry about the blade wobbling or folding, or dirt in a mechanism.

Carl.
 
I used to use sheath knives a lot more when I was in my teens. I had a couple of dangerous moments with them though, that convinced me that when in circumstances where there was a good chance of falling, like working among fallen timber, or riding a horse, that a folder was a lot safer.

Lately, I've been using Moras again, and after many years, being a little less adventuresome in my scrambling. Aboard a horse though, its still a folder.
 
I find it interesting that the idea of prying as hard use has popped up here a few times. I don't look at prying as hard use at all, I look at it as pure abuse! I would never do that with any of my knives. Most of them are far too high priced. I have a widgy and an EOD breacher in my car with a kit I put together both for that purpose and to save my blades. When I think hard use, I think cutting tougher materials, primarily wood and carving.
 
IMightBeWrong said:
I find it interesting that the idea of prying as hard use has popped up here a few times. I don't look at prying as hard use at all, I look at it as pure abuse! I would never do that with any of my knives. Most of them are far too high priced. I have a widgy and an EOD breacher in my car with a kit I put together both for that purpose and to save my blades. When I think hard use, I think cutting tougher materials, primarily wood and carving.
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Couldn't agree more a knife is a cutting tool not a pry bar. Traditionals have been around along time and continue to sale just as well as they always have. There must be a reason for that. Durability and toughness not to mention the incredible cutting ability of a thin blade. Which continues to out perform the latest and greatest. Nuf said
 
Hmmm.....

Sometimes I feel like South Texas is on the other side of the Sun. I just don't have the same experiences or history with knives that almost all have here.

My grandfather couldn't sharpen a knife well, so he touched up his knives with whatever gritty substance (a puck, a stone, sand paper, etc.) between professional sharpenings. He had his sharpened ( twenty five cents a blade in the late 40s) when he started his fishing season in the spring, and then again before hunting season in the Fall. He couldn't see why a man would need more than a knife or two, so he only had a knife or two. His folders were never carefully cleaned, respected, and kept razor sharp on a routine basis. Only during hunting season. Otherwise they were utility tools that did cutting, scraping, light prying, cleaned fish and game, cut tinder for the fire at the hunting camp, *gasp* opened a can or two or motor oil (remember the tin lids?) when there was no spout, worked on his boat motor, stripped wire, and any other task he felt a knife should do. He cleaned rusty blades with steel wool or sandpaper, then oiled them with 3 in 1, and put the knife back in his pocket. As tight fisted as they come, a good knife was one of the few things he would let go of money to get. He bought only CASE brand as he could sharpen them to the nub without them wearing out. The blades were a bit wobbly and had some play, but as long as the knife stayed shut in his pocket, he was happy with it. He felt that some signs of wear and tear were just the result of using a knife or any other tool.

A knife was a utility tool, the original multitool that he used in work and play, from hunting sheep in Colorado to replacing the hoses and wiring on his old '56 Apache truck. When he got a new knife, the old one was almost completely done for, or he received it as a gift.

And so it has gone with most of the old timer I have met in the trades over the last 40 years. I have done work on ranches, on farms, and been in the blue collar end of things for that long. Never, ever, have I seen any rancher, farmer or construction guy use an EDC folding knife for anything other than a utility tool. (Not talking favorite custom hunting knife, here...) Blade wobble, an occasional broken tip, loose or broken scales, pins working out of the bolsters.... that's what gives a knife character. Never have I seen any of my blue collar brethren clean and oil their knives every single day, sharpen to atom splitting sharpness, nor have I seen them only use a knife as solely as a cutting tool. Ever see an old school farmer that wouldn't use his knife to pop off the latches on the distributor cap of his tractor? Or scrape up an old seal before installing a new water pump on the truck or tractor? Ever seen a rancher that wouldn't try to pry up a fence staple, scrape mud off their boots or equipment or clean a hoof with a knife? Ever seen a construction worker that didn't use his knife to pry trim into place, strip wire, scrape old caulk, etc.?

Traditionals carried the day for decades without a hitch doing all those things. The good news is that with the guys I was raised around and grew up with did all those things and much more for years to the same knife, and never had problems. I rarely saw one fail, and never saw one fail unless it was pushed to the boundaries of plain stupid. They used the knives as knives, but as mentioned, for anything else they saw fit.

Never saw a bit of reverence for the knife itself, but certainly did see a lot of respect for a knife that made it for a couple of years in the field without a hitch. It became a favorite, a knife that had earned several more years of pocket time based on its ability to perform.

Maybe it's my location, where I was raised. I love my old traditionally styled knives (oldest personal knife given to me in '61) and mostly use them as cutters. But I also use my work knives to do as I see fit too, like all my father and my grandfather, and all the folks I have worked with in the trades over the last 4 decades. They are tools, and if they are the closest thing I have to what I need handy, they will have to do as needed to save time, money and effort. I haven't ever seen the total reverence for knives as cutting tools that folks describe here from their grandfathers and great grandfathers, nor have I seen any of the old timers I am around now (70s and 80s now) shy away from using a knife for any task they deem is a knife's job, which in many cases may not have a thing to do with cutting.

Like I said, maybe it's just where we are down here...

Robert
 
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midnight flyer said:
He cleaned rusty blades with steel wool or sandpaper, then oiled them with 3 in 1, and put the knife back in his pocket.
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This is how I learned as a little kid. Light rust got some spit and a rub-down with my tee-shirt or the cuff of my jeans. :) And anything more would get hit with some steel wool and my dad's 3-in-1 oil. If I somehow let the knife get really rust, then it was time for a little Naval Jelly. I don't even know what that stuff is, but I can still remember the nasty smell. :barf:

By the way: Great post, Robert!

-- Mark
 
Use my slip joints to pry with and I always ended up getting a screw driver or a pry bar. So anymore I don't even pry with em just go get the right tool from the start. I believe people just gets it in their heads that a 4lb 6 inch long closed knife will do anything. They are still knives used to cut with. I guess any knife Knut on this forum was in a life or death situation if be see some peanuts prying doors open or custom knives cutting through sheet metal. Because in a pinch we would do what we have to do to survive like our fore fathers did. Now my knives are kept oiled and sharp but I will strip a wire, scrape, and cut about anything. I haven't broke any back springs or have a knife fall apart using one. But I have some well known tatical knives let me down. Their handles separated, that stupid tension screw fall out, clips getting caught ripping my pocket off and then losing the knife. For CUTTING a slip joint will take it. Plus who wants to carry around a pocket sword that weighs more than a pistol in plain site. They're I's nothing that screams knife like a 4 inch pocket clip hanging from ur pocket. After 9-11, dad went all the way to the Bahamas with a full size case trapper in his pocket. The customs guy said that it didn look like weapon that he liked the bone on it.
 
Some of these hillbilly guys around here I know went into the military and most of them said that they carried their case and old timers the whole time they was deployed. They used them for utility purposes. They said instead of a tatical folder they just got a fixed blade for hard core use or for defense purposes. So for me I guess it's whatever someone wants to carry. If u like and feel comfortable with a case peanut then carry one and don't second guess it. If u like a tatical, carry it. A slip joint cuts things. That's what they do. I just don't understand why someone would chose a knife based on how many car hoods they could cut or pry open a safe. Jesse James didn use a zero tolerance to pry open a safe; he used dynamite. The right tool for the job.
 
midnight flyer said:
And so it has gone with most of the old timer I have met in the trades over the last 40 years. I have done work on ranches, on farms, and been in the blue collar end of things for that long. Never, ever, have I seen any rancher, farmer or construction guy use an EDC folding knife for anything other than a utility tool. (Not talking favorite custom hunting knife, here...) Blade wobble, an occasional broken tip, loose or broken scales, pins working out of the bolsters.... that's what gives a knife character. Never have I seen any of my blue collar brethren clean and oil their knives every single day, sharpen to atom splitting sharpness, nor have I seen them only use a knife as solely as a cutting tool. Ever see an old school farmer that wouldn't use his knife to pop off the latches on the distributor cap of his tractor? Or scrape up an old seal before installing a new water pump on the truck or tractor? Ever seen a rancher that wouldn't try to pry up a fence staple, scrape mud off their boots or equipment or clean a hoof with a knife? Ever seen a construction worker that didn't use his knife to pry trim into place, strip wire, scrape old caulk, etc.?
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+1

This is pretty much the ideal I was taught and grew up with.


As I've been reflecting on this thread, I'm reminded that this difference of opinion exists among skiers and cyclists. There are skiers who maintain their skis meticulously, keeping the edges razor sharp and the bases perfectly structured and waxed in "race ready" condition. Other skiers follow the "all skis are rock skis" approach, thinking nothing of skiing when the snow is thin and sparks fly off the edges as they ski over rocks (no kidding). Among cyclists, there are those who keep their bikes perfectly tuned and the bike clean enough to keep in the living room (no kidding). Others ride in all conditions and follow the "ridden hard and put away wet" approach.

No judgment. The right approach is which ever makes the most sense to the owner.
 
I haven't input anything into this thread because I didn't feel the need to do so. I did feel the need to read every post by the folks that have contributed. There is nothing I can add, but it was a VERY good read. Thanks to you folks that put this info up.

Ed J
 
midnight flyer said:
Hmmm.....

Sometimes I feel like South Texas is on the other side of the Sun. I just don't have the same experiences or history with knives that almost all have here.

-snipsnipsnip-

Robert
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I don't really think you have an unusual experience, Robert, but I do believe that we have self-selected into a group of slip joint users who are incredibly particular about our knives and maintaining them, at least compared to the average person. I grew up on a ranch outside Austin, and my grandfather was much like yours - he was no good at sharpening knives (or anything else, really) and he used them for scraping, boring holes, marking lines on boards to be cut, and on and on. My father was more like most of us in that he enjoyed collecting knives and he only used them for cutting. He would also spend a couple of hours getting the edges on his knives just the way he liked them. I took after him in that respect, but my sister took after our grandfather. I think that there are both kinds of folks out there, but the first are easier to find.
 
midnight flyer said:
Hmmm.....

Sometimes I feel like South Texas is on the other side of the Sun. I just don't have the same experiences or history with knives that almost all have here.
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JAlexander said:
I don't really think you have an unusual experience, Robert, but I do believe that we have self-selected into a group of slip joint users who are incredibly particular about our knives and maintaining them, at least compared to the average person. I grew up on a ranch outside Austin, and my grandfather was much like yours - he was no good at sharpening knives (or anything else, really) and he used them for scraping, boring holes, marking lines on boards to be cut, and on and on. My father was more like most of us in that he enjoyed collecting knives and he only used them for cutting. He would also spend a couple of hours getting the edges on his knives just the way he liked them. I took after him in that respect, but my sister took after our grandfather. I think that there are both kinds of folks out there, but the first are easier to find.
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I agree with both you guys. Here's a post I wrote in another thread, but I think it applies to the discussion here.

kamagong said:
Although a pocketknife was more treasured 100 years ago than they usually are today, then as now, people had different levels of sharpening ability. We tend to look at the past with rose colored glasses, where every man had a fine knife in his pocket, kept it scalpel sharp, and knew how to use it for tasks both mundane and extraordinary. That wasn't the case. I've seen plenty of old knives with broken and chipped blades that looked like they were sharpened by a drunk monkey on a sidewalk. I don't know how they got that way and I'm not judging their owners, but I know for a fact that they didn't take care of them as well as I do my own knives.

Truth be told, even if a man from 100 years ago knew how to take care of his knife, I seriously doubt that he lavished the care on his knife that a lot of the people here do with theirs. Think about it, we've seen dozens of threads on how to keep knives polished, how to patina a blade, even how to clean a knife. People have debates on how to best sharpen a blade -- I myself have several Arkansas stones, an Indian stone, sandpaper, strop, and even a Spyderco Sharpmaker to choose from. With these tools and the knowledge I've gleaned from this forum I think any quality knife will easily outlast me to be passed down to my children and grandchildren. I'm more concerned with losing a knife than wearing one out.
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kamagong, your post reminds me that a great many of the vintage knives we hunt and revere were sold at relatively low prices originally. I'm thinking particularly of the US made knives in the range of the 1910s to 1970s as mass-production capabilities matured in the face of 2 world wars, ultimately leading consolidation in the cutlery market (see the histories of Schrade for example). My sense is that "jack knives" were closer to disposable items than family heirlooms, although I note that for those of use in a post-Bic world, disposable means something much more awful than it would have in the 1960s.

In any event, your post reminded me of a great article I found a few years ago on the "Word Detective" web site. Here is an excerpt.

The definition of “jackleg” as an adjective to be found in the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) definitely deserves a round of applause: “Incompetent, unskilled; unscrupulous, dishonest. Frequently used of lawyers and preachers.” The OED pegs the term as a US invention, dates its first appearance in print to 1850 (“A party of some twenty of the most notorious rode up, headed by what is there [i.e. in Texas] known as a ‘jack-leg’ lawyer”), and gives roughly the same period for its use as a noun to mean “An incompetent or unskilled or unprincipled person.” The Historical Dictionary of American Slang gives slightly earlier examples of the adjective, and notes that it has also been used to mean “hastily thrown together, ragtag, shoddy,” often referring to work done by a “jackleg” (untrained) carpenter or builder.

The OED doesn’t suggest an etymology for “jackleg” apart from pointing out that it’s a combination of “leg” and “jack” (short for “John” and often used as a generic name for “the common man”). Pointing to the similar “blackleg” as a colloquial term for a dishonest gambler, the OED notes simply that “As in other slang expressions, the origin of the name is lost,” apparently including “jackleg” in that “lost” group.

Fortunately, back in 2001 the American Dialect Society mailing list rode to our rescue with an interesting discussion of “jackleg.” The British etymologist Jonathon Green suggested that “jackleg” might be related to the 18th century British term “jack-a-legs,” meaning a simple folding knife with a broad, square blade of the sort used by unskilled carpenters who lacked sophisticated tools. In extended use, “jack-a-legs” appeared in the US as the adjective “jack-legged” or “jakeleg,” meaning “unskilled.”

Of course, that just shifts the mystery one step back, leaving us wondering where “jack-a-legs” came from. On the ADS list, Grant Barrett then helpfully pointed to the OED entry for “jockteleg,” a Scots word (with related forms “jacklag,” “jack-o-legs,” “jockeylegs” and others) that means “folding knife” (and thus is almost certainly the same word as “jackleg”). A note in the OED quotes a glossary of Scots compiled by Lord Hailes around 1776: “The etymology of this word remained unknown till not many years ago an old knife was found having this inscription Jacques de Liege, the name of the cutler [knife-maker].” The OED then quotes two other sources attesting to the existence of this Jacques de Liege. So it seems that this knife-maker, by inscribing his name on his knives, gave us the American slang term “jackleg.” The OED expresses some skepticism about this story, but they do say that “On the face of it this account is plausible.”
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Full article here: http://www.word-detective.com/2012/01/jackleg/
 
Very interesting post Pinnah, the word 'jack' has been used in a variety of ways in the English language. The word 'blackleg' is very old, but it is not, so far as I know, a term for a 'dishonest gambler', but rather an older (and still current) term for a 'scab', someone who crosses picket lines in an industrial dispute, and in the case of coal-mining has black legs from working while those on strike do not.

Edit - Just re-reading this, I realise this statement may POSSIBLY put me into conflict with the Oxford English Dictionary! :D However, the term 'blackleg', in the way I've used it (and the way it's still commonly used) goes back, at least to the middle of the 19th Century.
 
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To the OP's question of toughness a friend of mine gave me a slip joint a couple of years ago and asked me to use it hard. Well I did , and this post in another thread might give you some insight as to toughness. Granted some of what I did was borderline abusive but you will get the idea. This is not intended to be a pitch for any certain make as I am sure that most any decent slip joint would have been up to the tasks.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-amp-Related-Slipjoints?p=9118409#post9118409
 
My two proverbial cents on this matter:
It's all about fears and what-ifs.
(And possibly a lack of understanding of simple principles.)

I read often about how people don't like folding knives without a lock, because they're afraid of it closing over their fingers.
Use the knife the right way, and it'll never close over your fingers! (If it does, you're trying to cut with the blunt side.)

I read often about how people want a folding knife that can cut them out of a car-wreck.
Drive more safely! (And get one of those automobile-glass hammers and put it in your car.)

I read often about how people want a folding knife they can carry all the time, that will also slay zombies and aliens.
Yeah... No.

Thing is, use a folding knife for the light-medium duty cutting it's meant to handle, and all will be fine, lock or no-lock.
They wouldn't still be around, the old folding knives of yesteryear, if they weren't strong enough to take the use they saw way back when.

The fact that many are still around, 50-60 even 100 years on from their manufacture, attests to two things:
1. They're plenty strong for their intended use.
2. If a folding knife is made well, and used and taken care of properly, it will outlive you by yonks and yonks.
(Taking care of something properly might also be a factor, since i see plenty of people nowadays that don't take care of their tools, cars, houses or anything. But that's for a different rant some other time.)

As always, your mileage may vary, and probably does. This is just the ramblings of a tired Norwegian, so take everything with a big pinch of salt.
 
midnight flyer said:
My grandfather... His folders were never carefully cleaned, respected, and kept razor sharp on a routine basis. Only during hunting season. Otherwise they were utility tools that did cutting, scraping, light prying, cleaned fish and game, cut tinder for the fire at the hunting camp, *gasp* opened a can or two or motor oil (remember the tin lids?) when there was no spout, worked on his boat motor, stripped wire, and any other task he felt a knife should do. He cleaned rusty blades with steel wool or sandpaper, then oiled them with 3 in 1, and put the knife back in his pocket. As tight fisted as they come, a good knife was one of the few things he would let go of money to get. He bought only CASE brand as he could sharpen them to the nub without them wearing out. The blades were a bit wobbly and had some play, but as long as the knife stayed shut in his pocket, he was happy with it. He felt that some signs of wear and tear were just the result of using a knife or any other tool.

Robert
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Ha! Your grandfather and my dad sound a lot alike. I've posted almost exactly the same thing about my dad. MOF he won't even carry a knife that has bone or ebony or any kind of fancy handle material. His knives are going to see diesel fuel and mud and motor oil and fertilizer and heaven knows what over the period of time he owns them.

I've completely given up on ever buying him one he will actually use.

He has all of his usable ones (and a couple that aren't) lined up on the little stand by his recliner. A dozen or so old soldiers with their nicks and dings and dents and scratches scattered about under his lamp. They are all small little things with delrin handles and well worn blades with a nice edge put on his ancient and hollowed out Arkansas whetstone. It is funny to me that a man who appreciates a fine shotgun or rifle or automobile is so unaffected by beauty in a knife.

I can still remember from my early childhood when he would use his knives to open up those old oil cans with their steel lids. I smile and cringe at the same time. :)

Will
 
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