How tough CPM-3V really is?

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Natlek said:
When people watch clip like this most time they focuses on the wrong things. Look carefully at the geometry of the blade, bevels and edge bevels. And if you know thickness of blade on spine you can get very useful information for that knife.
It is all about geometry .Same steel , same heat treat , same hardness and you can make many different knives. One will cut nail as they are from sponge without any damage , other one will chip if just looks in that nail . Many abuse that geometry to show that their magic heat treat formula for a certain steel works miracles . And only children believe in miracles and Santa Claus!
One more thing , it is not just edge bevel angle that define blade ,thickness behind edge is also very important .EDGE on blade with 0.4mm BTE will be four time stronger then EDGE on blade with 0.2mm BTE .Both same edge angle ! Even that is not end. You can make two knives , both 0.4mm BTE and same edge angle and one can be much much stronger on edge . HOW thick is just above that BTE thickness ? It is game that some knife maker play to .................you know right ?

Which geometry will better preform on nail ? Same steel , same hardness ,same edge angle same BTE thickness ?
Blue one or red one ?

DGdTZtn.png
Click to expand...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those completely different edge angles?
 
Synov said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those completely different edge angles?
Click to expand...
There are not edge angles , they are bevels .Cutting edge was not drawn .I add one more drawn , other knife with SAME thickness behind edge with blue and red one to get better picture what I am talking about .
green line should be edge

gXS2MaG.png
 
Natlek said:
There are not edge angles , they are bevels .Cutting edge was not drawn .I add one more drawn , other knife with SAME thickness behind edge with blue and red one to get better picture what I am talking about .
green line should be edge

gXS2MaG.png
Click to expand...
Blue will be stronger, while red will be better at slicing.

But still, whatever they did to make that 1095 cut that frying pan the way it did and take no damage - props to them. They know their HT.
 
A little science for the masses. Why is 1095 crap.
1095 has plate martensite. To avoid it one has to quench to target hardness. So not to max and temper it down. That way there is no plate martensite but there is a remainder of carbides which will kill toughness. Steels bellow 1060 and including will never get plate martensite. 1095 peaks in toughness around 55-57HRC and is in D2 category. One way to avoid plate martensite and get a harder blade is going for bainite. Still 59HRC is still in the non tough zone. Little is achieved because those same carbides kills toughness.
Alloy steels have no plate martensite because of correct alloying to avoid it and make carbides for cutability. There is no stainless nor high alloy steel with plate martensite.
1095 is marketing as seen here people still believes it rocks. Science debunks that. Larrin debunked it.
Geometry! Thicker makes stronger. Thicker blade, lower grind, thicker behind the edge, higher edge dps. All this enhances strength. Purpose of correct steel is to achieve balance of weight and purpose.
Testing is done incorrectly. A butter knife can cut thru nails. Those are compression tests and majority of steels can do it without suffering. If it doesn't cut nails, it's bad HT. My M398 skinner did it. So what is the reason for steel picking? Edge retention and vibration. Massive choppers vibrate more. Hand damage is now ignored but there are YT stuff that relates and shows difference in comfort of using TOPS heavy stuff vs thinner with better geometry. All materials fatigue. More mass equals more vibration. More carbides, stress in steel is higher per vibration. Softer steels with carbides suffer faster from it. That's why spring steel dominates in elastic deformation. Even they have limits, otherwise old springs would be good for knifemaking. That's' why 420HC when HT'ed to max hardness will have almost no carbides and prove tougher than 1095 3x and because of large amounts of Cr will have a better edge retention. And it's stainless. And it's cheap. And there are makers who prove it superior in budget blades.
Sharp corners, small sharpening choils, small and sharp jimpings and overall sharp edges all over are a visible recognition of more work, ergo more value, makers give. But are all weak points. Stress riser and crack propagation sites. Nathan's knives are more than just Delta 3V. He has taken care of small things to achieve a better product.
So why do people use a costlier steel, work more with it and for less working results ( 1095 vs 1055) is purely marketing. As seen here 1095 is like something everything else is compared to. That should remain 100 years ago. 1095 is a myth. 3V is so much more that 1095 should never be compared to it.
As some simpletons decided to adhominem, and for those who like to think with the correct head (anything is for debate with data), here is a
disclaimer:
Using correct choices of steel I have achieved the following in my HT:
- a method to achieve 2x min up to 3.5x max strength and toughness per steel, so low toughness steels are pushed into more reasonable category. This year going for 5x (it's way tougher than achieved).
- a method to bring down ductile to brittle transition almost to 0K, which makes the steel tougher at room temp and reasonably lower, ergo wherever people go
- a method to bring Ms 100°C up, so no cold treatment is used. This year goal is to bring it 200°C up to avoid cryo treatment
- a method to achieve more stainlessness, so for example MagnaCut can achieve LC2000 stainlessness
- a method to anneal steel in less than 1h from achieving correct temp
- soon start of testing a method for in situ alloying, so makers can make there own alloys

As seen, I like knives and want to make them a lot better at their purpose. 1095 is never a choice for those who want more. We have kilns, so why use coal!?
And I will give a big THANK YOU to @Larrin and @Nathan the Machinist for their respected work as they gave me motivation to do things differently.
Back to subject.
3V IS tough and one should be careful with what it compares it to. It's almost as a category for itself.
 
JoeBusic said:
1095 is marketing as seen here people still believes it rocks. Science debunks that. Larrin debunked it.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to get into this further with you Joe, except for the following...

I can afford any knife I want, in any steel I want. I have hundreds of knives in all shapes, sizes and flavors.

So tell my why after 40 years, I still continue to grab a quality 1095 knife (even though I own knives in every steel produced to date, and could choose any one of them) when I am out in the woods with potential for some hard-use cutting to be done?

I'll tell you why. Because it works. And my 40 years of real-world usage and experience trumps your "science" and "marketing" claims every single time I use a 1095 blade.

And I am not directly comparing 1095 to 3V, or any other steel. 3V is amazing in its own right as I stated in a previous post, and I use it a lot. But dollar for dollar, pound for pound, edge geometry to edge geometry, my 1095 knives can do 99% of things I need done, and do them just as efficiently and effectively as any other steel. I don't mind having to touch up my edge more frequently, even though that is a perceived drawback of simple carbon steel to many.
 
Last edited:
JoeBusic said:
A little science for the masses. Why is 1095 crap.
1095 has plate martensite. To avoid it one has to quench to target hardness. So not to max and temper it down. That way there is no plate martensite but there is a remainder of carbides which will kill toughness. Steels bellow 1060 and including will never get plate martensite. 1095 peaks in toughness around 55-57HRC and is in D2 category. One way to avoid plate martensite and get a harder blade is going for bainite. Still 59HRC is still in the non tough zone. Little is achieved because those same carbides kills toughness.
Alloy steels have no plate martensite because of correct alloying to avoid it and make carbides for cutability. There is no stainless nor high alloy steel with plate martensite.
1095 is marketing as seen here people still believes it rocks. Science debunks that. Larrin debunked it.
Geometry! Thicker makes stronger. Thicker blade, lower grind, thicker behind the edge, higher edge dps. All this enhances strength. Purpose of correct steel is to achieve balance of weight and purpose.
Testing is done incorrectly. A butter knife can cut thru nails. Those are compression tests and majority of steels can do it without suffering. If it doesn't cut nails, it's bad HT. My M398 skinner did it. So what is the reason for steel picking? Edge retention and vibration. Massive choppers vibrate more. Hand damage is now ignored but there are YT stuff that relates and shows difference in comfort of using TOPS heavy stuff vs thinner with better geometry. All materials fatigue. More mass equals more vibration. More carbides, stress in steel is higher per vibration. Softer steels with carbides suffer faster from it. That's why spring steel dominates in elastic deformation. Even they have limits, otherwise old springs would be good for knifemaking. That's' why 420HC when HT'ed to max hardness will have almost no carbides and prove tougher than 1095 3x and because of large amounts of Cr will have a better edge retention. And it's stainless. And it's cheap. And there are makers who prove it superior in budget blades.
Sharp corners, small sharpening choils, small and sharp jimpings and overall sharp edges all over are a visible recognition of more work, ergo more value, makers give. But are all weak points. Stress riser and crack propagation sites. Nathan's knives are more than just Delta 3V. He has taken care of small things to achieve a better product.
So why do people use a costlier steel, work more with it and for less working results ( 1095 vs 1055) is purely marketing. As seen here 1095 is like something everything else is compared to. That should remain 100 years ago. 1095 is a myth. 3V is so much more that 1095 should never be compared to it.
As some simpletons decided to adhominem, and for those who like to think with the correct head (anything is for debate with data), here is a
disclaimer:
Using correct choices of steel I have achieved the following in my HT:
- a method to achieve 2x min up to 3.5x max strength and toughness per steel, so low toughness steels are pushed into more reasonable category. This year going for 5x (it's way tougher than achieved).
- a method to bring down ductile to brittle transition almost to 0K, which makes the steel tougher at room temp and reasonably lower, ergo wherever people go
- a method to bring Ms 100°C up, so no cold treatment is used. This year goal is to bring it 200°C up to avoid cryo treatment
- a method to achieve more stainlessness, so for example MagnaCut can achieve LC2000 stainlessness
- a method to anneal steel in less than 1h from achieving correct temp
- soon start of testing a method for in situ alloying, so makers can make there own alloys

As seen, I like knives and want to make them a lot better at their purpose. 1095 is never a choice for those who want more. We have kilns, so why use coal!?
And I will give a big THANK YOU to @Larrin and @Nathan the Machinist for their respected work as they gave me motivation to do things differently.
Back to subject.
3V IS tough and one should be careful with what it compares it to. It's almost as a category for itself.
Click to expand...
All that aside, give me simple answer to my question.

If these steels are so much better than 1095 and it's all in geometry, then why their knife makers don't give them the geometry needed to withstand the same or even more than what 1095 does?
 
JoeBusic said:
A little science for the masses. Why is 1095 crap.
1095 has plate martensite. To avoid it one has to quench to target hardness. So not to max and temper it down. That way there is no plate martensite but there is a remainder of carbides which will kill toughness. Steels bellow 1060 and including will never get plate martensite. 1095 peaks in toughness around 55-57HRC and is in D2 category. One way to avoid plate martensite and get a harder blade is going for bainite. Still 59HRC is still in the non tough zone. Little is achieved because those same carbides kills toughness.
Alloy steels have no plate martensite because of correct alloying to avoid it and make carbides for cutability. There is no stainless nor high alloy steel with plate martensite.
1095 is marketing as seen here people still believes it rocks. Science debunks that. Larrin debunked it.
Geometry! Thicker makes stronger. Thicker blade, lower grind, thicker behind the edge, higher edge dps. All this enhances strength. Purpose of correct steel is to achieve balance of weight and purpose.
Testing is done incorrectly. A butter knife can cut thru nails. Those are compression tests and majority of steels can do it without suffering. If it doesn't cut nails, it's bad HT. My M398 skinner did it. So what is the reason for steel picking? Edge retention and vibration. Massive choppers vibrate more. Hand damage is now ignored but there are YT stuff that relates and shows difference in comfort of using TOPS heavy stuff vs thinner with better geometry. All materials fatigue. More mass equals more vibration. More carbides, stress in steel is higher per vibration. Softer steels with carbides suffer faster from it. That's why spring steel dominates in elastic deformation. Even they have limits, otherwise old springs would be good for knifemaking. That's' why 420HC when HT'ed to max hardness will have almost no carbides and prove tougher than 1095 3x and because of large amounts of Cr will have a better edge retention. And it's stainless. And it's cheap. And there are makers who prove it superior in budget blades.
Sharp corners, small sharpening choils, small and sharp jimpings and overall sharp edges all over are a visible recognition of more work, ergo more value, makers give. But are all weak points. Stress riser and crack propagation sites. Nathan's knives are more than just Delta 3V. He has taken care of small things to achieve a better product.
So why do people use a costlier steel, work more with it and for less working results ( 1095 vs 1055) is purely marketing. As seen here 1095 is like something everything else is compared to. That should remain 100 years ago. 1095 is a myth. 3V is so much more that 1095 should never be compared to it.
As some simpletons decided to adhominem, and for those who like to think with the correct head (anything is for debate with data), here is a
disclaimer:
Using correct choices of steel I have achieved the following in my HT:
- a method to achieve 2x min up to 3.5x max strength and toughness per steel, so low toughness steels are pushed into more reasonable category. This year going for 5x (it's way tougher than achieved).
- a method to bring down ductile to brittle transition almost to 0K, which makes the steel tougher at room temp and reasonably lower, ergo wherever people go
- a method to bring Ms 100°C up, so no cold treatment is used. This year goal is to bring it 200°C up to avoid cryo treatment
- a method to achieve more stainlessness, so for example MagnaCut can achieve LC2000 stainlessness
- a method to anneal steel in less than 1h from achieving correct temp
- soon start of testing a method for in situ alloying, so makers can make there own alloys

As seen, I like knives and want to make them a lot better at their purpose. 1095 is never a choice for those who want more. We have kilns, so why use coal!?
And I will give a big THANK YOU to @Larrin and @Nathan the Machinist for their respected work as they gave me motivation to do things differently.
Back to subject.
3V IS tough and one should be careful with what it compares it to. It's almost as a category for itself.
Click to expand...
View attachment 2075975
 
shane45-1911 said:
I'm not going to get into this further with you Joe, except for the following...

I can afford any knife I want, in any steel I want. I have hundreds of knives in all shapes, sizes and flavors.

So tell my why after 40 years, I still continue to grab a quality 1095 knife (even though I own knives in every steel produced to date, and could choose any one of them) when I am out in the woods with potential for some hard-use cutting to be done?

I'll tell you why. Because it works. And my 40 years of real-world usage and experience trumps your "science" and "marketing" claims every single time I use a 1095 blade.

And I am not directly comparing 1095 to 3V, or any other steel. 3V is amazing in its own right as I stated in a previous post, and I use it a lot. But dollar for dollar, pound for pound, edge geometry to edge geometry, my 1095 knives can do 99% of things I need done, and do them just as efficiently and effectively as any other steel. I don't mind having to touch up my edge more frequently, even though that is a perceived drawback of simple carbon steel to many.
Click to expand...
So your use is really not harsh and have no need for better steels. That means your opinion on other steels is void.
 
LostCause said:
All that aside, give me simple answer to my question.

If these steels are so much better than 1095 and it's all in geometry, then why their knife makers don't give them the geometry needed to withstand the same or even more than what 1095 does?
Click to expand...
Lack of knowledge.
 
shane45-1911 said:
So tell my why after 40 years, I still continue to grab a quality 1095 knife (even though I own knives in every steel produced to date, and could choose any one of them) when I am out in the woods with potential for some hard-use cutting to be done?

I'll tell you why. Because it works. And my 40 years of real-world usage and experience trumps your "science" and "marketing" claims every single time I use a 1095 blade.
Click to expand...
I would like to see pictures of those quality 1095 knives you use when you are out in the woods .............
 
J. Doyle said:
I think we all would.

Anyone with all that "knowledge" should be able to demonstrate that they know how to put it to use.
Click to expand...

This is all I found here on BladeForums:

Bush Ulite, O2, new and interesting approach to knifemaking

My first here. ULTIBLADE, where life starts @60 HRC, a new approach to knives. Ergo handles, ultimate heat treatment and new materials. Small, big and in between. From heavy to ultralites. Model: Bush Ulite Size: L: 4.7", 120mm; thickness 6mm Steel - O2, case and handle scales - PCTG (vs Kydex...
www.bladeforums.com www.bladeforums.com

Skeleton multipurpose 6"

No art, made for hard use from -100°C to over 150°C. From polar to max heat a human can handle this one will acompany you. 6mm O2, 62HRC, Cerakote Tungsten coating Skeleton lite design but with enough strength for tough tasks. Ergo handle angled for max power transfer from hand to blade Holster...
www.bladeforums.com www.bladeforums.com
 
J. Doyle said:
I think we all would.

Anyone with all that "knowledge" should be able to demonstrate that they know how to put it to use.
Click to expand...
I agree with that .Every knife maker must demonstrate how knives he make can cut nail !! Every one !
And most likely after that market would will be flooded with chisels 🤣
 
Natlek said:
I would like to see pictures of those quality 1095 knives you use when you are out in the woods .............
Click to expand...

I have posted pics of many of my knives (Tops, Becker, Esee, etc.) I'm not about to dig them all out again to snap pics just to appease you, and that aren't relevant to this thread. :)
 
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