How tough is Talonite?

Rob, I realize that the geometries are different but there are lots of aspects that are universal. The Talonite blade and the BM could be compared in terms of ease of sharpening, edge retention, edge toughness, slicing ability, tip durability and so on. Now of course when comparing them, the different geometries would have to be noted, for example, if the BM has a thicker edge than the Talonite blade then the edge should be that much more durable. But since the durability is roughly linear in cross sectional area of the edge, it would not be difficult to make a judgement on how the results would be with similar edge geometries.

Collin, thanks for the info.

-Cliff
 
Whoops, didn't think this first one went through
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[This message has been edited by Stompy (edited 09 May 1999).]
 
Is talonite a logical (to heck with price
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) choice for the blade steel of a folder? Thanx
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Stompy,

Absolutely! Kit Carson has been making folders with Stellite for years. Rob Simonich along with Pat Crawford are working with Bob Taylor of REKAT to produce a small run of Talonite bladed Carnivore folders.

Rob,

I'm surprised to learn that the Kanji has only a 4" blade length. It's just a hair longer than my Wambli. I'd figured from the pictures that it had a blade of around 5.5" or so. Mmmmmmmm interesting!



------------------
-=[Bob]=-

I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!

 
Kit Carson has made two Talonite folders, both #18's, and I have some more on order. They are absolutely wonderful. Walt
 
Just my two cents in here on the 3V issue. I've been working with a couple of pieces here, and just did some testing today on the first finished blade I made from it. No, not torture tested, per se, since its a customer's blade, but he wanted me to get some idea of the performance of the steel before making a finished knife out of it for him.

The piece I was testing was a 13" blade camp knife made out of .175" thick stock. At the widest the blade was 1 1/2" and it was flat ground to within 1/4" of the spine at the narrowest spot near the hilt, and full flat ground at the front and tapered. Edge thickness was about .07" half way up the blade before a convex final bevel was cut on it, with the bevel being finer and more tapered also at the tip. With the high grind and taper the heft and balance was more like a short machete or a parang than a heavy duty camp knife....slightly blade heavy, and with a fairly thin profile.

The 'test' medium was green and blown down dry alder trees, from 1" diameter up to 4" or a bit more. Over a half hour or so I progressed from clipping small limbs and trees, to cutting a half a dozen sections from one 4" trunk, including chopping through several seasoned knots in the wood.
At the end of that time the blade would still slice free hanging newspaper and showed now signs of chipping, burrs, dullness or any kind of bending. During a previous impromptu 'test', I dropped the blade point first on an old sheet tile floor from about four feet, digging a divot in the flooring, but otherwise not harming the tip in the least.

Again, this was not a scientific test, but the 3V performed at least as well as 5160 in the toughness it showed during chopping, and did hold and edge better than the 5160 test blade I have here. As Ed observed, once it is heat treated, is takes a lot of effort to flex 3V at Rc 60, and that stiffness showed in chopping too. It did not vibrate and bounce like a more spring tempered blade. Otherwise, it grinds fairly easy, and after heat treating cleans up easier than D-2 or ATS-34. That I found surprising, since it did take a lot longer to work up an edge on it than a similar thickness 5160 blade at RC 57.

madpoet

mel sorg
madpoet custom knives
http://www.angelfire.com/mn/madpoet
melsorg@wcta.net
 
Mel, thanks for the info. That sure looks promising. Since you are experienced with D2 would you care to make a guess how the edge would have held up if you made that knife from D2 instead of CPM-3V? CPM claims a very high abrasion resistance as well as toughness on 3V. Any signs of getting thicker stock?

-Cliff
 
Cliff,
My view is that in a head to head, the D-2 would still come out slightly ahead in edge holding. From working it hardened, and putting an edge on it, the 3V is more abrasion resistant, and holds an edge longer than a comparably tough steel, like 5160, but, it doesn't quite nudge out D-2.
Where the 3V does edge out the D-2 is in toughness. I've been having real good luck with D-2 in larger blades, but if I was really intending to do heavy chopping work, I would go thre route of 3V or A-2 or 5160. As of right now the 3V shows promise, but I'm not going to say on the basis of one blade and some tests by someone else that its a miracle steel.
It should be interesting to see as more thicknesses become available how it works in a heavy camp knife or camp axe style application.

madpoet
So far I haven't
 
Mel, that is interesting considering the numbers that CPM quote :
www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/images/3vpg2.JPG

According to the above sheet, CPM-3V at 60 RC should have a higher charpy value and abrasion resistance than D2 at 62, which is what I recall you leave your D2 at. I look at those numbers by CPM a little wary of course as I wonder if they are really doing their best to get the optimal performance out of the other non-CPM steels. Drop me a line if you are able to get thick stock in 3V, about 1/4" or so.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 11 May 1999).]
 
In Chris Reeve's forum on BF he has commented on Talonite saying its lateral strength is too low for general purpose utility even in very small blades (his Sebenza to be specific) :

http://www.knifeforums.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/000222.html

This really surprised me as I have been looking at Talonite for a big blade and never assumed there was even a question about it being able to be used for a small one. Any comments from those who have used it?

-Cliff
 
Yes Cliff, me
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! I'm very curious as to what figures Chris is basing his opinion on. I certainly can't see any limitation in the two knives I have. I'm willing to bet that Chris has been given erroneous specs.

Just read his post... interesting. In addition to commenting that he felt Talonite didn't have sufficient toughness or lateral strength, he lumped Talonite in with Boye dendretic cobalt, two very different beasts albiet both cobalt alloys. He then stated that his manufacturing process couldn't use non-magnetic alloys and maintain strict 0.001 tolerances. Mmmm, cobalt alloys are not non-magnetic either. Me thinks Chris is definately missing some facts.

-=[Bob]=-
 
1. Fact is Talonite/Stellite can't be hold in place by a magnet, Chris is right on this one.

2. Even though Talonite/Stellite is tough, its lateral strength is less than that of steel. The unique properties result from hard particles which are embedded in a softer base. I could imagine that with a blade like the one on the current Sebenzas, the very thin bottom part would be weaker than steel and Chris might be concerned about bend edges.
 
Ralph :

Even though Talonite/Stellite is tough, its lateral strength is less than that of steel.
Click to expand...

Cobalt :

The charpy values for both 3V, and Talonite are close so overall impact strength should be similar.
Click to expand...

There seems to be some disagreement here. The only bit of information I could find was that Talonite is quoted as having a yeild strength of 195 000

http://www.carbideprocessors.com/tknives.htp

as compared to 225 000 for Mission's Ti which claims to be near unbreakable. The Talonite value is lower, but not by much. While lateral strength of more a factor of the Shear Modulus (I think, correct me here if I am off Cobalt) I would assume they are again similar.

One thing that I don't understand is that Missions A2 tensile strength is much higher than the Ti value and yet they are promoting the Ti as being much tougher. I am lost on this one.

-Cliff
 
I think the difference is between bending and breaking. Talonite might be easier to bend, but can withstand impact better and is therefore "tougher" than steel. Steel keeps its form longer, but will break easier than Talonite. Imagine Talonite as diamonds in soft clay. The clay takes the impact, the diamonds do the cutting. Steel is more like wood. Up to a certain point it's more elastic than Talonite, but will break easier than clay. (Well that shows you what I know about alloys...)

One thing I noticed on your source is it mentiones that Talonite is much harder than steel but then gives the RC with 42-48. Strange!

And regarding grinding they say
The material is nonmagnetic. Surface grinding will work well with this alloy in a jig that is magnetic if the jig holds the Talonite
Click to expand...
How do I understand that?
 
TAADAADAA, Cobalt to the rescue! not really.

Ok, Charpy value at room temperature is 72 ft-lbs(Stellite-talonite should be right up there). Funny thing is that at 1000 deg F charpy goes up to 81 and at 1500 deg F it's at 126 ft-lb's(wierd stuff).

Average Ksi at room temperature is 176.5 ksi (for stellite-assume talonite is right there also). This number is about the same as a 1095 steel.

Rockwell C hardness is 47 to 49.

Since it has 3% Iron in it, it does not qualify for completely non-magnetic, but it's close. Put a magnet to it and it won't stick.

Wear resistance is of course way beyond any steel and it will never rust or corrode.

Of course paper data sometimes does not give the whole story as you can see in the Blade magazine Carson/Swharzer article concerning a talonite knife being made. The lateral strength appeared to be more than an average steel.

Cliff, if you have not seen the article, I think that I scanned it in and can email it to you.
 
Cliff, concerning the Ti being tougher than the A-2, is because it is. Even though A-2 may have a higher yield, the Ti is an alloy that has memory and will return to true when most steels have failed, either by plastic deformation or fracture. This is probably why they state that it's tougher.
 
Cobalt that charpy value is extremely high I would not have expected that. Things are looking up for big blades in Talonite.

What is Ksi? Assuming that is a standard unit I am guessing the si is square inch, but what is the K. In metric that would be Kelvin but Temperature per square inch is an odd quantity.

Concerning the A2 / Ti toughness, could A2 have a lower lower elastic limit than Ti even though its tensile strength is higher ? That would explain what you described. Since Mission measured the tensile strength they can obviously obtain the elastic limits as well - I would be very curious as to how A2 and Ti compare in this regard.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, Ksi is just 1000 x psi. sorry for the confusion. I forgot that you foreigners(hehe) work in the more logical metric system in factors of 10.

I would also be interested in seeing the comparison in the two, since I don't have any charpy values for Beta Ti. All I know is that it has incredible memory, but this may not be necesarily better.
 
Jeez; every time I leave for a couple of days you guys and gals get into trouble.

Is Talonite (r) tough? You bet your sweet tush it is. So there.

Actually, this has been one of my concerns from the beginning; however, Kit Carson said that he has never had a Stellite (r)U-2 dive knife returned due to breakage, and they are subject to severe duty as prybars. Whether or not Talonite (r) will fare as well remains to be seen, but personally, from looking at the data, I think it will.

Further, is Cobalt or Talonite (r) magnetic? Yep, it is. It will generate eddy currents very well indeed, if you pass it through a magnetic field. It will not become 'permanently' magnetized as does iron, however. Some alloys of cobalt utilizing rare earths, such as samarium, WILL become permanent magnets.

As Tom Walz has pointed out, though, the magnetic qualities are not terribly important unless you are defusing mines.

To me, the important qualities of Talonite (r) are: corrosion resistance to the point of being corrosion proof, and the ability to hold an edge for a long time, even if you do a lot of cutting.

But enough of this theoretical stuff. Nick Blinoff and Michael Gettier are going to put the knife to the food; they are both professional chefs of high repute, and run very busy restaurants. Nick and Mike came up with slightly different designs for a chef's knife, based on personal preference. Each should have a Talonite chef's knife in their hand for extensive trial very soon. As soon as 'bent rod' stops fooling around with the billets and starts grinding them <g>.

Actually, the Blinoff design knife was featured in a photo shoot with a number of other knives, and was truly stunning. So get busy, Rob, and turn out another few knives so that we can get some real world experience. Have fun and keep sharp. Walt
 
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