Hunted Xtras?

I have no doubt that a lot of thought went into this knife and I can appreciate the intention of all it's features.

I do have to say the quality of the becker is excellent. The saw teeth work and the radiused back allows you to put plenty of force behind the blade with your off-hand thumb.

The added heft of the large belly aids in chopping but the hook interrupts the cutting edge of this knife.

This blade shape also requires specialized sharpeners. I would not want to rely on materials found in the forest to sharpen this knife.

It would be an interesting comparison to weigh the usefullness of the saw back vs. the same knife without the saw back that could be used as a draw knife.

I think this knife is headed in a good direction but when I read that it's design is perfected, I think there's more work to be done!

Cheers,
Collecter
 
As for sharpening, the knife really isn't difficult to maintain.
I've tried using every sort of sharpening tool but have always come back to my hard arkansas stones. For the Tracker knives I've never used anything specialized other than a modified 1-1/2x4-1/2x1/2" hard arkansas. To modify the stone I simply abrade one of the long edges on concrete to create a radius. This I used to sharpen the hook. The hatchet portion is done on the center of the stone while the drawknife is sharpened on the corner portions as they tend to remain flat & not develope a "belly" as the stone will wear in the center. The saw teeth are another story. I have used these hard for years & have rarely needed to dress up the saw teeth. When I did a triangle stone of something similar worked just fine without the need to search the world over for specialized sharpening tools to do the job.
I have also successfully used fine-grained river rocks which work well & can also be abraded in the field to any servicable shape you desire. Not something you'd expect to do in fifteen minutes but for a long term outing where time isn't a factor, they'll work fine.

I believe that the knife has really peaked as far as the design goes. Naturally I remain open-minded & continously search for ways to improve my products & my newest version the WSK demonstrates this.
When I used to make the Tracker knives, they had some shortcommings such as a hollow ground draw knife edge & fully hardened/tempered blade which created a weak point where the knife could break if over stressed. The tang was also overly heavy, adding weight where it was unnecessary. When I came back out with this same pattern but with a new name, these problems were corrected. The draw knife is now flat ground, the blade differentially hardened & tempered & the tang tapered to reduce weight & improve balance making it a very desirable tool.

I guess one hundred people can look at this design & see something different & one hundred different changes which they feel would be an improvement but in my belief, this design has pretty much reached its peak as far as efficiently performing the tasks I intended it to. I am sure that everyone can find faults as their own personal views on wilderness survival differ as greatly as the weather but from my thirty years learning the many wilderness skills which allow me to be pretty self-sufficient, I am pleased with where the knife has evolved. It just works.

I am always open to suggestions though because as has been said, there may very well be areas for improvements. I know knives that I had created twenty years ago I thought were just dandy but to look at them now I say, "Damn! I hope nobody ever finds out that I made that thing!" You learn alot over time as you go as really use a tool & my WSK, although maybe not the prefered knife many would select, certainly has come a long way & has its place amoung those who also have.


David R. Beck, Knifesmith
 
I like the knife. I like the finish, the look, and knowing its well made. Its also given me new ideas. I would buy for the sake of having such a knife to use in the woods here in Maine, assuming I had the money.
 
I had very high hopes for this movie, glad I didn't read this thread before last night. I rented it. What a bomb, for all the reasons mentioned above, especially by Phil. Hand forging the Tracker design in the woods over an open fire, while you're being tracked??? Although I guess it was tough for TLJ to spot smoke from a fire because he was too busy flint knapping his own knife. He could have stopped in a $1 store in the city and got a kitchen knife fer crying out loud. I too would have taken the length of steel and whomped TLJ as opposed to forging a blade. And what's with the slash wounds exploding blood through layers of clothing immediately on the cut?
 
I like the knife design. But that's about it in regard to this film.

It had to be one of the most over-exposed anti-knife statements ever made. I can't dig that. To boot, the acting was sickening, the plot was silly and truly a buzzkill, and it was one of the few movies I've ever seen where I felt angry at the director(s)/producer(s) at its end.

Professor.
 
Originally posted by t1mpani
As far as the military part goes, my buddies and I were laughing out loud at the "tactics" being displayed by the special forces team at the beginning. The plan seems to have been:
Team Leader--"Okay, Benecio will run in there and kill him, so we need to create a diversion. We'll all shoot at the building on the count of three."
Troop--"But sir, aren't we in the middle of a war zone, where they aren't likely to even hear our gunfire, or distinguish it from theirs, or determine its direction even if they do hear it? And how do we know all of them will come out leaving our target alone in a big dark room?"
Team Leader--"Trust me, it'll work..."

The knife fighting was, I'll admit, very gritty and using realistic moves. However, neither of them seems to notice that they're being eviscerated, except by uttering an "OW!" occasionally. With the wounds being inflicted, that fight would have been over in the first five seconds.

So, as far as I can tell, it's neither deep, nor well written, nor even a really good action flick. Like I said, ten days in theaters... ;) :p :D :D

I fully agree that Tom Brown's involvement is the reason for the knife's presence. And, of course, you fight with whatever you have, but why on earth make (oh yeah, I forgot to mention the forging scene above--how did he forge those Micarta grips? ;)) the same knife when you're planning in advance to fight with it? Why not just carry the two foot length of steel, and beat TLJ to death?

This all said, however, I still prefered my time in the theater to working. :)
Click to expand...

Many of your points concerns problems with the script. The Special forces technical advisor was a SEAL with a pretty good reputation.

As per the knife fight- they included lots of reactions when we choreographed the scenes. However, they are not going to say "Ow" in the middle of a knife fight- it is neither good acting, or an effective way to survive a knife fight. Most reactions will be shown by their body mechanics and how they alter their movements to stay alive.

As per the five seconds... if you watch the DVD...EVERYONE is aware of that. The quick kills were shown by the way the other victims were killed. However, the challenge was prolonging the fight and still make it somewhat believable. No Erroll Flynn style swashbuckling, limited "phone booth" space to fight in (they are on the edge of a cliff most of the time)... keep the vital areas from getting nailed right away. There's more subtleties within the brutal moves than meets the eye.

As per the blood spewing forth - that's digital. Many people missed some moves without the CGI blood emphasizing it. Also the water from the falls would wash out any fake blood that they added and continuity would be even worse.

As Mr. Beck pointed out - movies change many realities when it is adapted on film.

Critically the reviews were mixed. The majority of the critics who disliked the script / film praised the fight scenes. So action wise it did okay in the eyes of the critics.

As per someone saying the film was anti-knife... I'd disagree, it shows the deadliness of the knife in a variety of ways. That doesn't make it anti-knife. The psycho carrying the knife isn't representative of all knife guys. That's like saying every film with a bad guy brandishing a gun is anti-gun.

As per the tracker elements that could have shown the knife in a more positive light - that was Tom Brown's dept. We just showed the lethal capabilities of the knife.

--Rafael--
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Technical advisor may well have been a SEAL, but they sure didn't listen to him. SEAL I'm not, but I am in the military and the way the team worked reminded me of watching 14 years olds play soldier with paintball guns.

I'm afraid you're taking me too literally as far as "Ow" goes. I'm well aware that the actors extended themselves into "Ugh" "Aaaiiiieeee" and various other grunts. My point was that while they scream in pain alright, the pain seems to be immediately over. I only saw the movie once, so I don't remember which, but one of them got stabbed through the arm underneath (as far as I could tell) the bicep. He hollered in agony, but had an amazing amount of control of that arm through the rest of the fight.

Yes, I'm totally aware of how Hollywood can take advice/suggestions/reality and twist them around or discard them utterly, but knowing this fact doesn't make a horrible movie watchable.
 
Just to clear some things up, here's the box office returns for "The Hunted" To date- From Entertainment Weekly magazine...

$34.2 million domestic

Video sales to date-

$3.7 million domestic

#2 Video rental in America

#4 video sale in America

Weeks on the chart- 2
 
When I first saw the trailers and heard some advance info here, I went and did research on Mr. Brown and the Tracker design and got really interested. I was hoping the movie would show all the design features of the knife in the storyline - show DelToro making his shelter with the knife, show how he used the knife to make the booby traps, tripwires, etc.
 
Originally posted by extremefishin00
When I was watching the "Cutting edge" segment under the extras, one of the knife fighting consultants closes a rather large folder and puts it in his pocket. Did anyone happen to notice what it was?

Chris
Click to expand...

Hi Chris,

I'm the guy closing the knife, it was a Cold Steel Vaquero.

Tom Kier
 
The Hunted is a miserable film that is qualitatively on par with Hoffman's mega flop Istar.

I like Tom Beck's knife, although the film leaves us completely clueless on how the thing is supposed to be used, it looks very well made and practical. The knife in the movie is Beck's version irrespective of whatever Tom claims.

After this film, I could not care less for Tom Brown and his school. For a "survival/tracking" instructor to lend his name to a film that features not a single element of either tracking, nor survival, is pathetic. I would have asked them to pull my name off the credits. You would think that Tom would have found five minutes to spend with the scriptwriters to include at least 1 realistic scene. What is the going rate for one's integrity these days?

Tom did a great disservice to all of us. He has lent credibility to the anti-knife, anti-gun, anti-hunting, and anti-military messages in latest piece of leftist propaganda. He should be condeming this film instead of promoting it.

If anyone wants to see a knife used for survival, rent either the Edge, or First Blood. Leave The Hunted for the cheap Saturday morning kung-fu matinee.

n2s
 
Originally posted by t1mpani
Technical advisor may well have been a SEAL, but they sure didn't listen to him. SEAL I'm not, but I am in the military and the way the team worked reminded me of watching 14 years olds play soldier with paintball guns.
Click to expand...

The quote you posted earlier about tactics concerns dialogue. The Technical advisor makes sure the guys are holding their weapons correctly. For instance, stuff like - the stunt man doing the australian rappel correctly. The TA stays out of doing the script writer's work and vice versa unless asked.Sometimes we see things that aren't really there, or something seems implied that wasn't. What you quoted earlier was based on script and dialogue.

<<<]I'm afraid you're taking me too literally as far as "Ow" goes. I'm well aware that the actors extended themselves into "Ugh" "Aaaiiiieeee" and various other grunts. My point was that while they scream in pain alright, the pain seems to be immediately over. ......(snipped)

Yes, I'm totally aware of how Hollywood can take advice/suggestions/reality and twist them around or discard them utterly, but knowing this fact doesn't make a horrible movie watchable. >>>>

I've seen guys get slashed in real life and they don't react at all. Adrenaline and training does a lot of things. Lots of the stuff we put in we've actually felt in real life.

As per your opinion on the film, that's your opinion- no sweat. I'm only writing about sections that may shed light on some things that you wrote about ...

<<<<I only saw the movie once, so I don't remember which, but one of them got stabbed through the arm underneath (as far as I could tell) the bicep. He hollered in agony, but had an amazing amount of control of that arm through the rest of the fight.>>>>

Case in point: what you described wasn't in the HUNTED. There was a bicep slash, and Benicio took enough time to get away , climb behind a rock , AND apply a tourniquet that was pre- set. So more than the usual time to react to a wound in a film fight. He even had the presence of mind to bind the bleeding. He gains limited use of that arm.

There's even a part when a previous thigh wound is struck again with a blow just so Benicio can react and the upper hand is gained for a second by TLJ.

The only upper arm that did get stabbed was Tommy Lee Jones' tricep. And the fight ended two seconds later. That arm wasn't used again.


--Rafael--
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The film involves a main character ***NOT*** in the military seeking a person that ***LEFT*** the military and has become mentally unstable.

The military wasn't unstable, the character Benicio plays was. Tommy Lee Jones plays the character working for the military / government and is the good guy.

--Rafael--
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I'm afraid that we just aren't getting each other. The only actual dialogue I was talking about was between the F.B.I. agent (Connie Nielson) and Benicio. My lines in quotes between the Team Leader and other SF guys was simply my sarcastic telling of what the thought process seemed to be behind their attack. There actually wasn't much dialogue---there just didn't seem to be a plan either. They did not look like they knew what they were doing.

I'll admit that I had the time of the arm stab wrong. As I said, I've only seen it once. As to the bicep slash before, I guess we have to take it for granted that it didn't slash very deep, for him to have regained any use of his arm, tourniquet or no. I'm aware of the affects of adrenaline, but they do not overcome physics (tales of mothers lifting trains off of their children, etc.). If a person's bicep (and especially tendon) are severed, they will no longer have the ability to bend their arm. This doesn't have to do with pain, this has to do with the fact that the bicep is no longer connected to the forearm.

Understand, though, I'm not saying that if the knife fight hadn't been jazzed up and longer than reality, this would have been a good movie. In my opinion (which is, of course, meaningful only to me) this was an awful movie on all levels. Good concept that was totally screwed up in execution. The writing was bad, the editing and continuity were bad, and while the technical advising may have been good, they didn't listen to it.

But hey, enjoy the movie if it works for you. There are movies I love that NOBODY else can stand! :)
 
Hi Tom,

Thanks for the info. I just could not get a good look at the knife no matter how many times I stopped the frame.

As far as the movie goes, I went into it with high hopes, and was sorely disappointed. Pretty much the only part I enjoyed was the climax, mainly because I'm tired of all of these "the good guy only gets a scratch" fight scenes, eg. the ones found in Steven Seagal movies.

Chris
 
Originally posted by t1mpani
I'm afraid that we just aren't getting each other. The only actual dialogue I was talking about was between the F.B.I. agent (Connie Nielson) and Benicio. My lines in quotes between the Team Leader and other SF guys was simply my sarcastic telling of what the thought process seemed to be behind their attack. There actually wasn't much dialogue---there just didn't seem to be a plan either. They did not look like they knew what they were doing.

I'll admit that I had the time of the arm stab wrong. As I said, I've only seen it once. As to the bicep slash before, I guess we have to take it for granted that it didn't slash very deep, for him to have regained any use of his arm, tourniquet or no. I'm aware of the affects of adrenaline, but they do not overcome physics (tales of mothers lifting trains off of their children, etc.). If a person's bicep (and especially tendon) are severed, they will no longer have the ability to bend their arm. This doesn't have to do with pain, this has to do with the fact that the bicep is no longer connected to the forearm.
Click to expand...

Problem in the film for you were related to the execution of a concept in various departments of film making (most notably the script writer who puts down not only dialogue but plot). However, your initial post pointed the problems incorrectly at the military technical advisor. I corrected it by saying the problem lies elsewhere and from this current post of yours- it seems we cleared that up.

On the bicep slash - yes not that deep- since if you note the knife hand is being forced by Tommy Lee's hand which allows Benicio to resist the pressure of the slash enough to evade a deep wound and loosen the grip to circle over Tommy Lee's arm. Benicio's attempt at a carotid slash also failed because Tommy Lee takes a partial cut near his ear instead. Much of Tommy Lee's tactics were based on sacrificing less vital targets to avoid the quicker, agile movements of Del Toro. Sometimes we don't have enough time to fully evade or deflect a knife attack but you might have time to take the cut at a less fragile body part. You might end up badly hurt but you won't die if you get medical attention. Benicio played up the moment just a bit so that you can see that he is forcing blood to flow into his palm (mixed with the water from the swim) so that enough of it can be used to blind TL's eyes momentarily, to allow Benicio time to fix any damages in his arm (if he can).

--Rafael--
 
Rafael,
I'm reading and re-reading my posts and I don't see anything where I'm trying to discredit the military advisor...the only place where I see I even mentioned him was:

Originally posted by t1mpani
Technical advisor may well have been a SEAL, but they sure didn't listen to him. SEAL I'm not, but I am in the military and the way the team worked reminded me of watching 14 years olds play soldier with paintball guns.
Click to expand...

Once again, all my discrediting is pointed at the moviemakers. :D They might have been surrounded by a whole SEAL team full of advisors. When it got down to the movie, the military aspect didn't look military. This isn't a reflection on the advisors--people can give insightful, well considered, experience-driven advice, and not have it listened to. Ask any parent of a teenager. :)
Warren
 
Originally posted by t1mpani
Rafael,
I'm reading and re-reading my posts and I don't see anything where I'm trying to discredit the military advisor...(snipped)
Once again, all my discrediting is pointed at the moviemakers. :D They might have been surrounded by a whole SEAL team full of advisors. When it got down to the movie, the military aspect didn't look military. This isn't a reflection on the advisors--people can give insightful, well considered, experience-driven advice, and not have it listened to. Ask any parent of a teenager. :)
Warren
Click to expand...

Granted. Just wanted to make sure the TAs got their due and the responsibility is directed at the appropriate folks. I agree with what you wrote in the first place - sometimes it is tough to see someone else's hard work get "laughed" at by others when you know that they did all they could for what they were given (or left on the cutting room floor). For instance, the rival officer had several sentries taken out by Benicio's character as he went in, so he wasn't entirely left alone, but it got edited in the final cut.

In the long run, I agree with what you wrote there in the end. There's so much stuff that gets filtered out of a film that when you finally see something decent, the audience should realize that LOTS of work/sweat/compromises were put in to get it there.
For example, the knife fight.... In fifty plus years of modern film making and hundreds of knife fights - this was the FIRST one that had realistic CQ taps within the beats of the slashes. It was also the first that SHOWED a disarm NOT working, as well as many other nuances. It was the first without swashbuckling back and forth. A different take from west side story dance knife fights.

So it becomes new to many film audiences, while those of us who train in knife waited to see something like this many many years ago. To capture the many subtleties of the knife fight and somehow include it in one extended sequence.

On a separate note, then we open up the latest BLADE magazine and read a review of the knife choreography and the critic simply dismisses the choreography as "poor" without seemingly understanding template training, nor CQ knife. This from a so called fellow blade enthusiast.... The ONLY reviewer who trashed the knife choreography that just about every critic (even those who disliked the film) praised as innovative.

Working on the HUNTED was challenging and fun - it was a great experience, and maybe there's that perfect knife film still waiting to be made.

In the meantime, there's always the knife fight with Vivica Fox using a frying pan versus Uma's kitchen knife in Kill Bill!

:D

--Rafael--
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Hey Rafael,
I wrote to Blade Magazine after I read the atrocious review that Mr. Reinhart gave the knife fighting sequences, and gave them a piece of my mind. I couldn't believe someone who's "into" knives and swordplay would trash the work you guys did on the film. The editor wrote me back and said that Reinhart is not a real movie critic, but he is "very knowledgeable" in the area of knife and sword fighting. Apparently he's not that knowledgeable or he would have known what he was looking at.
 
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