"Hunting" with a Snub Nose .38

[Revolvergeek]

I once read a few articles one was called Making a "silk purse from a sows ear" it was all about 38 special loads and the one they talked about the most was a cast 200gr lead round nose. The bad part you cant get that anymore. Would be interesting to try it at least. Doug

I have that article. If anybody wants the data PM me. The bullet used was cast from a Lyman #358430 mold. They were getting ~700 FPS from a 3 inch barrel at was was supposed to be standard pressure levels.

 

[Scott Free]

I think that the point being made is that the difference in weight between your chosen gun and a .357 or, heck, a .44 mag is at most a few ounces.

The 642 weighs 15 oz. and fits in my front pocket. No .44 mag is gonna do that. A few .357 do, but you don't gain much out of the short barrel. I'm not carrying the 642 for bear. I'm carrying more for bad guys or a pack of dogs. I don't even think about black bears. This being a Wilderness and Survival Skills forums, though, I thought I'd ask.

 

[reconranger]

Why do you have to compromise?

Nothing personal, but I swear, everytime I hear comments about weight, etc, I have two thoughts: That person probably could lose 10-20 lbs and get stronger to handle that extra ounce or two...

And I've never, ever understood compromising on a piece of gear that could easily make the difference between coming back or not. Especially when the person admits a lack of confidence in their choice.

In the meantime, while working on getting stronger, compromise somewhere else.

Again, nothing personal.

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It's just personal preference....not a lack of strength (I am a weight trainer and trail runner!)! I travel light and fast, and prefer not to be loaded down with iron.

WTF do you think I am giving up???? Less than 1 inch of barrel, 1 less round, a lighter but still adequate load, and it hurts your hand like hell to shoot the gun. I don't really see that I am giving up that much......

 

[David E]

I think that the point being made is that the difference in weight between your chosen gun and a .357 or, heck, a .44 mag is at most a few ounces. If you could lose a pound of body fat, or pick up 0.5% in total strength; you could carry a gun that you could be confident in- in the off chance of an encounter with a bear.

The difference between a marginal round from a marginal platform and an effective round from an adequate platform is a BIG compromise for insignificant gain.

I couldnt' have stated it better. This is 90% of my previous point. Add to that the poster himself has little confidence in his ultra-lightweight choice. If you don't have confidence in a piece of gear, a gun in this case, choose one you DO have confidence in!

The other 10% I really didn't address: Realistically assessing your needs and risks. Where I live, bear attacks are unheard of. People attacks, on the other hand are a different story. I choose my hiking/camping guns with that in mind.

It's a bad idea to pick a gun that "carries easily" but is hard to shoot, has minimal power and little accuracy.......and then expect it to readily perform the tasks that require those things!

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[Andrew Colglazier]

Assuming the handgun you listed IS YOUR CHOSEN WEAPON, then rather than throwing out a lot of suggestions for alternatives, perhaps the space would be better used discussing the question the OP actually asked?

So.

The snubby can be used as a game getter, it just takes practice to know its limitations. Inherently, it can be as accurate as a handgun with a longer barrel and better sights. You just have to pick a load that will do what you want, and shoot it enough to know you can hit with it.

I have hunted small game many times using the .38 Special cartridge with good results. I have always used wadcutters or semi-wadcutters. You don't need expansion, just accuracy, to take a rabbit or squirrel with a bullet that diameter. You also don't need a great deal of velocity, just a mild load.

For humans, the load you already have listed is quite adequate.

For larger game, you'd be lucky to ever get close enough to use this handgun, but... a heavier bullet will likely give better penetration. I would not use a hollowpoint, as penetration is what you want. So I would explore the accuracy of some of the loadings available in a jacketed or lead solidpoint. There are lots of bullet weights available, from 110 grains on up to 158 grains, generally. I would experiment with those loadings and see which is most accurate.

The handgun you have chosen is not perfect, but it is the one you have chosen, so you must learn to live within its limitations, or buy another handgun.

Andy

 

[David E]

WTF do you think I am giving up???? Less than 1 inch of barrel, 1 less round, a lighter but still adequate load, and it hurts your hand like hell to shoot the gun. I don't really see that I am giving up that much......

According to your own words, you're giving up a fair amount of confidence, which is no small thing.

Further, since the gun "hurts your hand like hell," I suspect you don't practice with it very much with those loads. This, in turn, lessens your ability to hit a target....with that gun.

It was your wording that caught my attention: "I have to compromise..." Well, to be blunt, no, you don't. You choose to compromise.

That gun may work well enough for trail defense, but carrying it in a pocket holster (which others have stated they do.) is a bad idea. Can you access it while wearing your pack? Can you access it while seated? Kneeling?

reconranger, do you carry any more ammo for it? Or just the 5 rounds in the gun?

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[Scott Free]

It was your wording that caught my attention: "I have to compromise..." Well, to be blunt, no, you don't. You choose to compromise.

As I said early, we ALL choose to compromise. Otherwise we'd be carrying slugged shotguns. A handgun, by it's very nature is a compromise. That a trail runner is carrying any gun at all is amazing to me. I have a few friends that regularly run 50-100 miles through the woods. They'd laugh at the suggestion of a gun.

 

[Kismet]

Assuming the handgun you listed IS YOUR CHOSEN WEAPON, then rather than throwing out a lot of suggestions for alternatives, perhaps the space would be better used discussing the question the OP actually asked?

So.

The snubby can be used as a game getter, it just takes practice to know its limitations. Inherently, it can be as accurate as a handgun with a longer barrel and better sights. You just have to pick a load that will do what you want, and shoot it enough to know you can hit with it.

I have hunted small game many times using the .38 Special cartridge with good results. I have always used wadcutters or semi-wadcutters. You don't need expansion, just accuracy, to take a rabbit or squirrel with a bullet that diameter. You also don't need a great deal of velocity, just a mild load.

For humans, the load you already have listed is quite adequate.

For larger game, you'd be lucky to ever get close enough to use this handgun, but... a heavier bullet will likely give better penetration. I would not use a hollowpoint, as penetration is what you want. So I would explore the accuracy of some of the loadings available in a jacketed or lead solidpoint. There are lots of bullet weights available, from 110 grains on up to 158 grains, generally. I would experiment with those loadings and see which is most accurate.

The handgun you have chosen is not perfect, but it is the one you have chosen, so you must learn to live within its limitations, or buy another handgun.

Andy

What he said.





Kis

 

[Fieldtestornothing]

It's just personal preference....not a lack of strength (I am a weight trainer and trail runner!)! I travel light and fast, and prefer not to be loaded down with iron.

WTF do you think I am giving up???? Less than 1 inch of barrel, 1 less round, a lighter but still adequate load, and it hurts your hand like hell to shoot the gun. I don't really see that I am giving up that much......

:thumbup: I'm with you brother! Like my dad used to say "Anything other than a BAR is a compromise"

Training is the key here in my opinion. In my experience most of the guys who blab for hours about the best gun for this and that should put less time talking and more time on the range.

 

[nemoaz]

Target practice load-- and you'll need to shoot ALOT with to have any hope of "hunting" with that-- lead wadcutters. They are usually 148 gr. These would also be a decent bunny round. I can't imagine you being able to hit a bunny with one of those 1 1/8 inch barrels though. Second choice would be the lead round nose loads that the military and police forced our boys to use. They are famous for doing very little damage.

People/dogs- 158 gr lead semiwadcutter hollow point (LSWHP) in +P is the acknowledged best round. Some of the lighter hollowpoints (110-130 gr) would be my second choice.

Shotshells might work for snakes or birds at very, very close range.

I understand that this may be THE gun you have. However, I wouldn't choose it either. If I were picking a J frame style gun, I'd try to get one with a hammer to allow for single action shots, one with a longer barrel (2.5 - 3" used to be common), and would look for a 357.

I'm also a bit skeptical of you carrying it in the front pocket. I can't imagine that. If I stick a minimag flashlight in my cargo pocket, it rubs a blister on my leg in no time. A pistol in my front pocket would give me blisters in an even worse place. Have you actually tried hiking like this? The reason I ask is because once you determine that you REALLY need a holster, fanny pack, or pouch to carry your handgun in, you are no longer limited to a snub-nose revolver.

I consider the snubby a last ditch gun to be used at distances not much farther than across the room. I can hit with it, but my qualifying scores go up a great deal with a subcompact auto, and go much, much higher with a full-sized auto or revolver. I assume I'm not the only one who doesn't do well with that 1 inch barrel and tiny sights.

 

[Scott Free]

I'm also a bit skeptical of you carrying it in the front pocket. I can't imagine that. If I stick a minimag flashlight in my cargo pocket, it rubs a blister on my leg in no time. A pistol in my front pocket would give me blisters in an even worse place. Have you actually tried hiking like this?

A 15 oz. gun in a pocket holster doesn't rub, bounce, or jostle. It's easy to forget you even have it with you. If you carry a pack with a load-bearing waist belt, then a belt holster is impossible. If the holster is somehow attached to the waist belt, then the gun is no longer with you when you take off the pack. If you do have a possible encounter with someone, your hand can be in your pocket and on the grip without taking the situation to a place it probably doesn't need to go. And if you do need the gun in a hurry, the draw is quick and natural. Is pocket carry perfect for every situation? Nope. Nothing is.

 

[Andrew Colglazier]

A 15 oz. gun in a pocket holster doesn't rub, bounce, or jostle. It's easy to forget you even have it with you. If you carry a pack with a load-bearing waist belt, then a belt holster is impossible. If the holster is somehow attached to the waist belt, then the gun is no longer with you when you take off the pack. If you do have a possible encounter with someone, your hand can be in your pocket and on the grip without taking the situation to a place it probably doesn't need to go. And if you do need the gun in a hurry, the draw is quick and natural. Is pocket carry perfect for every situation? Nope. Nothing is.

I agree with all this.

I usually carry my Keltec P32 in my left front pocket while hiking or backpacking. No rubbing, no problems, handy.

Andy

 

[David E]

Since this thread has strayed severely, I think I'll start another thread...

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[BlackHills]

Since your primary use seems to be self-defense the DPX should be fine. I'd probably change that to Glasers but that's just my preference in a smaller caliber. I'm a big fan of Corbons and that's what I load the .45 with but my 442 has Glasers.

 

[David E]

Target practice load-- and you'll need to shoot ALOT with to have any hope of "hunting" with that-- lead wadcutters. They are usually 148 gr. These would also be a decent bunny round. I can't imagine you being able to hit a bunny with one of those 1 1/8 inch barrels though. If I were picking a J frame style gun, I'd try to get one with a hammer to allow for single action shots, one with a longer barrel (2.5 - 3" used to be common), and would look for a 357.

I consider the snubby a last ditch gun to be used at distances not much farther than across the room. I can hit with it, but my qualifying scores go up a great deal with a subcompact auto, and go much, much higher with a full-sized auto or revolver. I assume I'm not the only one who doesn't do well with that 1 inch barrel and tiny sights.

A .38 snub might be the most misunderstood handgun there is. Many people think that it's only good for defense situations inside elevators. Others think that hunting deer isn't a problem as long as the "proper ammo" is selected....

As is often the case, the truth is somewhere in between.

A snubby doesn't lend itself to being shot accurately, but it can, indeed, be shot accurately. Like, hitting a man-size target at 50 yds and beyond is very possible and doable. Yes, it takes practice, but the GUN can do it from the get-go. The trick is getting YOU to the point where you can do it with the gun.

I have a 642 which has a totally concealed hammer. I daresay that I can shoot it just as accurately, if not more so, than the other guy shooting his Model 36 single action only. It's a matter of properly executed technique and, once again, practice.

It shouldn't take the average handgunner too long before he can hit a popcan @ 15yds with his chosen snubby. Once he can do this, then rabbits and such are a definite possibility for the camp stew pot.

But that level of skill requires practice, no getting around that. So, WILL you practice enough? That's the real question.

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[Stainz]

Just a follow-up re my 296. It's exposed hammer sibling - the 396 - is once again available - in S&W's 'Night Guard' line. The Ti cylinder is gone, with SS in it's place, so it's up to 24 oz, but the 2.5" barrel now sports a Tritium night sight. Again - it's a .44 Special 5-shot in an L-frame. The 200gr max and no-lead stipulations of the older 296/396 are gone - and it has a SS shield in the topstrap over the b/c gap, to limit flame/lead cutting of the Al/Sc alloy frame. They are proud of it, too - $980 MSRP. Still - it will fit the pocket, just use care to not snag that hammer.

The 4" 329PD was a better choice, if size wasn't a big issue (It's not in the '08 catalog - some reports circled last year concerning the violent recoil setting the internal lock to on in an example or two. My two friends with that model, like me, have never experienced any 'lock' problems.). It's the same size as a standard 4" 629, just weighs 26.5 oz vs the SS versions 41.5 oz. Both are 6-shot N-frame .44 Magnums. My 4" 629, even with the X-frame backstrap-padding grips, is a handful with 'real' .44 Magnums - that wood gripped lite weight would be miserable. I guess if you really count ounces, it would be important. Of course, if weight is no issue, you could always have a porter tote your S&W .500 Magnum 'Bear Protection Kit' for you. S&W couldn't keep up with yuppee demand for them!

Stainz

 

[powernoodle]

The 642 weighs 15 oz. and fits in my front pocket.

Same reason I carry a 442. Fed on +P Gold Dots, just because thats what I have available. Whatever one carries is a compromise, whether too much weight or too little caliber.

 

[Quirt]

Interesting no one has mentioned that this piece of hardware requires some significant programming of the human software!

I quote this from a very credible and knowledgeable source - "J Frames are Experts Guns" ~ Clint Smith

I, being one who doesn't know much about shooting, fighting, self defense, or hunting, concur.
If I was going to carry a J frame (and I do as a back up) I'd be training and practicing a lot with it...and I do and that is how I met Mr. Smith and that is where I've heard him say this quote on numerious occasions. A J Frame is a great piece of hardware but it does require commitment on the part of the person to be truly competent with it. I would vehimently suggest if you're going to pack this thing, espeically for self defense, you seek out a very competent defensive small arms school who can help you become both competent and confident with it.

But what the heck do I know?

 

[Revolvergeek]

I did!

It can be done, but requires lots of practice. I can shoot roughly 2.5 inch groups with my 642 at 25 yards, but I have shot it (and other much like it) a LOT.

By 'a LOT' I have probably fired 9-10K rounds though my .38 / .357 snubbies in the last 10 years or so. This was hard on my hands and ears. After I had to have my 640-1 rebuilt the second time (at roughly 3700 rounds of full power magnum ammo through it) I bought a S&W 34 22lr kit gun with 2 inch barrel as a practice gun. Best investment that I ever made. That little gun has taught more people to shoot than I can even count off the top of my head, and has done miracles to convince people of the accuracy potential of snubbies. Regarding accuracy potential, I used to have a 2 inch S&W 15 that would shoot 1 inch all day long at 25 yards with target wadcutters. I foolishly traded it off years ago for a 49 Bodyguard and have regretted it ever since.... :foot:

A properly fitting set of grips will do wonders to make these little guns more comfortable to shoot. They don't have to be large, or rubber, just fit your hand. I put a pair of checkered ebony Eagle Secret Service grips on my 640-1 and they made a HUGE improvement over the stock Uncle Mikes grips and were actually smaller to 'boot' (sorry, couldn't resist the pun).

As for the Crimson Trace laser grips - I run the LG405 on my 642 and really like them. They DO NOT replace proper sights nor proper technique. They are of very limited value in daylight. The are IMHO considerably slower than iron sights because many shooters end up looking for the dot on the target because they haven't practiced with their pistol enough to know where it is already going to be pointing. I like them because they give more options for shooting from odd positions when you can't get to a conventional aimed or point shooting position, i.e. sitting at a desk or in a car, knocked down on the ground, etc. Mine are set so the dot seems to float on the top of the front site blade at about 30 feet. No, this isn't a perfect zero, but it is fast and precise enough for the realistic uses that I will put this combination to.

 

[David E]

So, what accuracy standards do you guys have for using a snubby for defense or small game?

I suggested all shots on a popcan at 15 yds.

Anyone else ?

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