Husqvarna Multipurpose

Induction. That seems a fairly blunt and ignorant method of heat treatment. I mean to my understanding there is no carbon, or oxygen element involved in this process, for a couple of things, which are not unimportant in the metal treatment. You plug the object into an electric source, this creates molecular kineticism, friction ensues and heat is generated internally. I don't want no axe that is induction tempered. This is what Gransfors does? Really? They don't show that in the movie.

E.DB.
 
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Ernest DuBois said:
Induction. That seems a fairly blunt and ignorant method of heat treatment. I mean to my understanding there is no carbon, or oxygen element involved in this process, for a couple of things, which are not unimportant in the metal treatment. You plug the object into an electric source, this creates molecular kineticism, friction ensues and heat is generated internally. I don't want no axe that is induction tempered. This is what Gransfors does? Really? They don't show that in the movie.
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You might want to look deeper in how heat treatment works.
Carbon or oxygen generally are not involved, or to be clearer their involvement is generally a non-desirable side effect (although not dramatic, at least compared to what some people do). Many (most) blades are heated in electric oven, propane oven... Some top makers like Kevin Cashen use salt bath for REDUCING interaction with atmosphere. Others use inert gases oven for heat treatment. Induction is less common in custom makers because requiring specific tooling and a large power source so it's mostly limited to factory settings.
Induction is economically sound for large series and from the tech point of view gets to temperature quicker with a more homogeneous distribution.
Now how precisely does it nail target temperature, is there any particular effect for blades I'm not sure but I've never heard of it as a problem.
I'm quite sure Fiskars use it. They have some problems for time to time but those are mostly likely related to sharpening issues (edge burning). I have no idea who else does that.
 
As far as I understand - yes, I could look deeper into it, admittedly what I know is superficial, I've not made a pointed study of it at all - these two elements and their interplay among many elements including fire, seem significant for at least many Japanese tool smiths using pine charcoal fired forging and also the most highly regarded smith of Sweden who once preferred English coal but in the end made due with Polish coal. In these two examples it is the carbon that is determinate in forging as well as the heat treatment. It is the carbon that largely defines the cutting ability which the steel has.

It seems you are telling that temperature and temperature alone is the concern. In my ignorance, I cannot believe it.

E.DB.
 
Ernest DuBois said:
As far as I understand - yes, I could look deeper into it, admittedly what I know is superficial, I've not made a pointed study of it at all - these two elements and their interplay among many elements including fire, seem significant for at least many Japanese tool smiths using pine charcoal fired forging and also the most highly regarded smith of Sweden who once preferred English coal but in the end made due with Polish coal. In these two examples it is the carbon that is determinate in forging as well as the heat treatment. It is the carbon that largely defines the cutting ability which the steel has.

It seems you are telling that temperature and temperature alone is the concern. In my ignorance, I cannot believe it.

E.DB.
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The carbon content in the steel exists prior to the heat treat. It is not added at heat treat. In fact carbon loss is a common factor that bladesmiths are concerned about with their heat treatments. That is the very reason bladesmiths try to control the atmosphere within the heat treat apparatus. The oxygen in atmosphere combines with the carbon and forms a gas and it escapes the steel at the very surface. The loss is usually small, and it is called de-carb. Those who seek to scientifically perfect their heat treat attempt to minimize de-carb as an important part of their goals.

From a master, Stacey Apelt:

bladsmth said:
The flakes coming off are iron oxide. The Japanese save the flakes, grind them into a fine powder, and use it to polish their blades.

The amout of carbon in blade steel is .60 to 1.00% so a 8oz. blade has about 2 grams of carbon. The drop in total carbon content is probably less than a point or two in a normally forged blade.

The carbon loss in forging is very minute and restricted to within a few ten thousandths of an inch of the surface. This area is exposed to the free oxygen in the atmosphere of the forge. Any carbon that combines in this zone becomes gaseous carbon mon/di-oxide. The thin carbon depleted layer is called the "skin", or de-carb. The rest of the carbon in the steel is still locked up in the matrix of the molecular structure.

Controlling the forge atmosphere is how to limit carbon loss to almost nothing. Balancing the gas/air mix to be slightly reducing or neutral is how that is done.
Click to expand...

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/983744-How-much-carbon-is-lost-during-forging?highlight=carbon+loss
 
M3mphis said:
The carbon content in the steel exists prior to the heat treat. It is not added at heat treat. In fact carbon loss is a common factor that bladesmiths are concerned about with their heat treatments. That is the very reason bladesmiths try to control the atmosphere within the heat treat apparatus. The oxygen in atmosphere combines with the carbon and forms a gas and it escapes the steel at the very surface. The loss is usually small, and it is called de-carb. Those who seek to scientifically perfect their heat treat attempt to minimize de-carb as an important part of their goals.

From a master, Stacey Apelt:



http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-is-lost-during-forging?highlight=carbon+loss
Click to expand...

You tell 'em Memphis ;)
 
M3mphis said:
The carbon content in the steel exists prior to the heat treat. It is not added at heat treat. In fact carbon loss is a common factor that bladesmiths are concerned about with their heat treatments. That is the very reason bladesmiths try to control the atmosphere within the heat treat apparatus. The oxygen in atmosphere combines with the carbon and forms a gas and it escapes the steel at the very surface. The loss is usually small, and it is called de-carb. Those who seek to scientifically perfect their heat treat attempt to minimize de-carb as an important part of their goals.

From a master, Stacey Apelt:



http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/983744-How-much-carbon-is-lost-during-forging?highlight=carbon+loss
Click to expand...

No insight on how induction compares to more traditional methods?
 
Ernest DuBois said:
Induction. That seems a fairly blunt and ignorant method of heat treatment. I mean to my understanding there is no carbon, or oxygen element involved in this process, for a couple of things, which are not unimportant in the metal treatment. You plug the object into an electric source, this creates molecular kineticism, friction ensues and heat is generated internally. I don't want no axe that is induction tempered. This is what Gransfors does? Really? They don't show that in the movie.

E.DB.
Click to expand...

As far as I know, both Gransfors and Hultafors use the traditional oil-quench heat treat method. Wetterlings uses the induction method.

Cheers,

Jason
 
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KingKoma said:
No insight on how induction compares to more traditional methods?
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I don't know much about induction. I do know that some smiths are using induction very successfully for forging knives, but (as far as I know) most makers using induction machines are still using other methods for the heat treat. Induction heating can be insanely fast, and the variables are massively exacerbated. It would be super easy to overheat using induction. Induction HT is used successfully on products that are highly uniform in nature, like machine produced tools. Once the heat treat is dialed in, it is done exactly the same every time - usually done via an automated system. For a hand made product like a Wetterlings axe, I think it would be very difficult to dial in an induction HT due to the variances in thickness etc. It would make sense if Fiskars uses an induction HT because of the high uniformity, automated nature. These are just my musings based on the tiny bit I do happen to know. There are some geniuses that hang out in the knifemaker subforum that could probably render your brain numb with all sorts of information about it.
 
cegga said:
Hey!
The husky axes are forge in the same way as Hultafors, Wetterling. Gränsfors. Hults bruk and with the same Steel so they are as hand forge as them can be in press forging all swedish axe company use almost the same type of press to do the axes in
cegga
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Do the Huscqvarna have the same high RockWell as Hultafors,Wetterling. Gränsfors.?
 
Nice axe. If I had clued into the Huskies a few weeks earlier I could have grabbed their hatchet and forest axe, for what my Wetterlings Scandianavian cost me. I ordered the hatchet anyway and I guess that the dealership has it. I'll grab it when I have time next week. I pre paid and I hope that it isn't a scruff that I have to send back.
 
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