Hype vs. Honesty

[DngrRuss1]

I know that many of the knuts here are quite particular about their purchases and collections. I understand that many of you are fans of one company or designer over another, and no amount of discussion and debate will make you change your mind- like Ford vs. Chevy.

However, I wonder whether or not your loyalties are blind and unswerving, or do things like honesty and integrity really matter when making your choices and forming opinions?

I ask this rather obtuse question for a particular reason. Some of you may recognize my forum handle from other threads. I have defended Cold Steel rather aggresively against the CS haters and detractors. In my defenses, I have noticed words like Honor and Integrity being bandied about rather liberally by the haters when trying to slam CS, it's staff, and it's practices. I am wondering if other companies, the ones that you sing the praises of and rally behind, were showing less honorable or honest practices than you accuse CS of, would you still step in line with them and spew our venom at CS, or would you acknowledge that isn't the devil of the knife industry.

I have not mentioned other knife manufacturers in any negative fashion in my previous posts. I had not planned to. But I am getting some information that I am verifying (to the best of my ability) that might shed some light on some of these other manufacturers that is not very positive.

Again, this thread is addressed more to the CS Haters, not those that maintain an open mind. Those who have a mean gut reaction to CS and like to either poke fun at the staff or make wildly innacurate blanket statements (like CS are a bunch of ripoff artists, their products don't match the hype, etc.) without any real evidence- other than opinion- have always struck me as being one-sided and yet seem to be the loudest voice.

I wonder if you are willi ng to be just as vicious with other companies when those companies motives and integrity are called into question.

Be patient- I'll have more soon

 

[Blop]

I am not a CS hater but can say that i have not bought any CS because it was said they do no production by themselves.

Yes, other companies let knives produce out of company. Which one is an exepction? Spyderco does, Benchmade does, Emerson does, CRKT does.....

But if one company has an own production line you get a handful of impression how they define a good knife and can look forward what they accept from subcompanies.

I don´t have this feeling considering CS. There was a comparision between a CS Trailmaster vs. a Busse # soundso. The CS has shown the better steel quality. But i don´t know if that is usual or exeption. Is this based on a surprisingly good subcompany or is this on CS demand.

I am a Benchmade guy. But you will found my critics here and in other forums. Wether there was something in question about Benchmade i did asked around for opinions and experience wether it was edge quality or heat treatment or axis lock strength.

I was one of those, who discovered an axis lock failure on the 520 and still i think this model will fail earlier in destruction test than any other axis lock model of comparable sizes.

I hold back on critics of other knives. I regret to say why i am not buying Striders because the Strider guys don´t want to hear this.

But i miss serious discussions about the last hyped models considering real knife manufacturing and design. I am bored to see, how many knives are made based on customers desires against real tool properties.

I stay calm about this and that is my part of not being honest.

 

[Knifeclerk]

Why yes, I am a Cold Steel hater. It's not surprising to hear them talked down upon because they do make themselves out to be more than they are. Saying things like "The trailmaster will outperform every production knife and 90% of all custom knives."
I dislike it when they take other peoples designs. I hate it when United cutlery and Gerber do it, too. I hate it when they use low grade materials for higher costing knives. I hated it when CRKT dumbed down their steels, too. I hate it when Cold Steel bitches and moans about how the industry doesn't treat them fairly and doesn't give them props for being so innovative earlier on. Um, I don't know who else I can compare this to.
I am a Cold Steel hater. I still buy Cold Steel, once in a while. But I still trust other companies far more.

 

[Doug C]

I was quite surprised to learn of a number of soldiers,God bless each and every one of our troops,using Cold Steel.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

I feel it is entirely legitimate to criticize what we see is wrong, whether in advertising or practice. But be sure you know what you're talking about and be specific.

And it's better to speak well of the good than to criticize the bad. Why bother giving the lesser the exposure that the greater deserves?

Cold Steel can be seen as having erratic quality, but I don't think that's the case. I think their quality varies by class of knives, although unfortunately they don't identify these classes as clearly as, say, Benchmade does.

Cold Steel stirs controversy with its overheated advertising. That's the idea of advertising. This ain't the National Honor Society, kids, it's just business. The idea is to provide a decent tool at a decent price, and keep meeting that payroll.

Cold Steel provides so many knives to the military because the price is right and the quality is reasonable. I've also heard they donate a lot, which makes the price even better ...

 

[DaveH]

When you provide some gossip/news, we'll let you know.

Also it only counts if your news has to do with someone that doesn't already have a sullied reputation.

 

[DGG]

As a CS "Master Hunter" owner/user I don't slam any knife maker. My CS knives have been great, no problems whatever. I must admit that I like my Bark River hunting knives better but they should be because they are many times more expensive.

http://www.botac.com/colsteelmash.html

http://www.barkriverknives.com/

I have good knives from many different makers. They are of different styles, qualities, and prices. I dislike the "which one is best" type of question because frankly it is very ignorant. I would not defend any of my purchases to anyone. It was my choice. If its my dog I'll walk it!

I have some knives that just seem to fit me (physically and personality wise). But that's just me, not you or anyone else.

I would like to know what happened to all that meat (ribs, roasts, etc.) that got whacked in that CS dvd used to market their various knife models. I hope that all that testing was photographed the day before the Cold Steel company picnic, hee hee!

You are your boss. Do what you wish to do as long as it doesn't harm others. If someone else doesn't like it tell them to shove off!

I think it is perfectly okay to debate pros and cons as long as it is done in a constructive and objective manner.

 

[Horned Toad]

cons

I don’t think a company can be considered to have much honesty when they put up some large cash to fund a PI to dig up dirt on competitors.

My one experience with a CS product was years ago when a guy on my team bought one, don’t remember the model, but it didn’t even make it through one field problem before it turned into a rusty POS.


pros
if they do give knives to the troops, then great, doent make Lyn any less of a POS though

 

[longbow]

I've owned a lot of CS knives over the years. Mostly the Voyagers and a couple of fixed blades. FB's have been Carbon V. The Master Hunter I have is pretty old and is still the best hunting knife that I have ever used. Bar none. This includes customs too. Mine is made of 01 and is outstanding in every respect. My Recon is an old Carbon V model but it is a beat now. Handle is loose etc. My newer TM and RS are again very good knives. Don't know how you could make them any better for the price point via internet dealers. I also have owned a myriad of the aforementioned voyager folders. For a lock back knife I like them. I have an old school XL I still carry on occasion. Still solid lock up after much use and easy to get razor sharp and stays that way for a good long time. Their advertising is gimmicky at times but seems to work for them. I've also seen other companies do pretty much the same type of advertising and depending on who buys the knives and who doesn't will depend on who's critical and who isn't. Lots of hype out there but my CS knives have lived up to all that has been said about them. keepem sharp

 

[Bob W]

I don't own any of their products and have never badmouthed their quality. But I have viewed their DVD and certain portions are worthy of ridicule. I don't consider myself a "Cold Steel Hater" though.

And yes, if you look closely enough every single company has something to criticize.

-Bob

 

[STR]

I have owned and still own quite a few Cold Steel knives. In truth it doesn't matter in life how many good things or positive things one does. One negative thing shines out above all that and the rest is all but forgotten. Yes Lynn Thompson has done some things that stand out. Yes it appears that the company may have borrowed some ideas. What company hasn't? Thats life. Live with it. It happens everyday.

Cold Steel donates lots of knives to our soldiers. That is a positive thing. Lynn Thompson was one of very few individuals to voluntarily pay a royalty to Sal at Spyderco for the use of the opening hole. (check it out)
I have also read that there is an agreement between CS and the patent holders of the axis lock for the Recon lock. Is that dishonorable? Sounds to me like he went about things the right way if this is true.

Personally some of the very people shouting foul about Cold Steel and Lynn Thompson the loudest and most visibly do some things themselves that seem rather shady IMO. Like making profits on shipping as well as what they sell. Like double dipping which is basically charging $6.95 for shipping and when you ask to have it shipped Priority USPS they add an additional $4.95 but don't take off the $6.95 charge. Sorry but if it costs $4.85 to ship it to me and that is plain as day on the box when it arrives and on the invoice I'm billed $11.90 for shipping that pisses me off. It isn't right and I won't buy from retailers doing this! What is that saying in the bible? Stop telling me about the splinter in my eye when you can't even see the log stuck in your own? Or something to that effect.

 

[Franciscomv]

I try to buy from companies I think are honest and hard working and not from companies that I think are not behaving correctly. I get a warm feeling when I buy from a company like Victorinox that hasn't fired a single employee in 75 years and that will stand behind their product no matter what.

I don't like companies that make crazy advertising very much, in fact Cold Steels advertising has driven me away from them. I much rather give my money to Mike Stewart than CS because I see it as my way of supporting a stand up guy who runs a good bussiness.

The same happens with Chinesse products, I don't like buying stuff from a country that has sweat shops and work practices that would be considered slave labour in most other countries. I don't want to help support their political system either, I know I don't make much of a diference, but I feel better this way.

However, since I don't really know how each and every company runs their bussiness, and how ethical they are, I just buy what I like and try to steer clear of a few companies which I don't really like.

 

[Artfully Martial]

I'm a race car driver on the side, and I can tell you, the rivalries here are nothing like those between car fans. They're rude, disrespectful, and entirely ignorant. That's why they're fans and not race car drivers. Race car drivers realize that whatever wins is the car they run with, not something based on a blind loyalty/hatred because their Ford or Toyota pickup broke down 10 years ago and you perpetually hate the company no matter what changes they make or new vehicles are introduced.

I dare say that, despite loyalties, this is one of the most respectful crowds I've met. But then, these folks are far, far more educated than most hobbyists.

Usually when someone says Spyderco or Benchmade is their favorite, they preface their respect for the other side, and say something like they just like how it looks/feels/cuts more.

Personally, I save my loyalty for human beings. Build me a better product for cheaper and I'll buy it. Period.

 

[gordonk]

I'm one of those ones that's pretty impartial to brands. I have my own criteria for purchasing, I look at reviews, take what I need out of the reviews, and then track down the knife. If I have the money available, I like the knife and/or it suits what I "need" or want at the time, I'll buy it. When it comes to Cold Steel - that's just one of those that I keep looking at, but for me, there's nothing there that I want immediately. I do want to try their Bushman's, at least one of them, but it's not a priority. Maybe, if I got one, my interest would go up, I dunno. I sort of have that same feeling with Sebbies and Striders - it would be nice to get one just to see what the hype is about, but it's not a priority.

- gord

 

[Troll Bait From Hell]

I try to not let the hype affect me one way or another (though I know I'm not that successful).

I have owned three Cold Steel knives (a mini-tac neck knife that I used to use while jogging, though don't anymore, an All Terrain Hunter that I think is one of the true "sleepers" out there that is fantastic for its intended purpose, but nobody ever mentions, and a kitchen knife that I gave away as a wedding gift.) I thought all three were pretty good. I realize that Lynn Thompson may be a BS master, and I wasn't too impressed with him slamming other companies that used 420 "butter steel" (his words) and then turning around and doing the same thing himself (but his is "SUB-ZERO QUENCHED"!!!). Whatever. They still have some good knives, the Master Hunter being one of them that I don't own. Same for the SRK.

Dark Ops makes knives that I don't much care for, but I have to admit that I thought that their advertising was pretty funny and clever, though I understand that it didn't help the public image of knife makers and users. If I wanted one of their knives (which I don't), it wouldn't have stopped me from buying one.

Same with Kevin McClung and Mick Strider. Never owned any of their knives, and never met either one, but from my observations, they seem similar to other people that I've known over the years, some that I considered good friends. Some folks have, shal we say, rather extreme personalities that people either love or hate, and if you're a friend of theirs, then you're a friend for life to the bitter end, but if you're not, then well, you probably never will be. Wouldn't stop me from buying a knife of theirs, though I probably won't because of cost.

 

[USAFSP]

I am wondering if other companies, the ones that you sing the praises of and rally behind, were showing less honorable or honest practices than you accuse CS of, would you still step in line with them and spew our venom at CS, or would you acknowledge that isn't the devil of the knife industry.
Again, this thread is addressed more to the CS Haters, not those that maintain an open mind. Those who have a mean gut reaction to CS and like to either poke fun at the staff or make wildly innacurate blanket statements (like CS are a bunch of ripoff artists, their products don't match the hype, etc.) without any real evidence- other than opinion- have always struck me as being one-sided and yet seem to be the loudest voice.
I wonder if you are willi ng to be just as vicious with other companies when those companies motives and integrity are called into question.

Be patient- I'll have more soon

I dislike Cold Steel because of their trumped up claims. They are good cutting knives, but otherwise are no better than any other run of the mill, middle quality company. Thier owner, the great Lynn Thompson has been the topic of scandal more than once, but he is human, so who cares? You however seem to be a bit more on the obsessive side on how you talk about CS. Do you work for them? Do they give you free knives for getting all worked up and writing these thought out rants? I myself am a devote user of a certain knife company's knives and of a certain maker's knives, but other than talking about thier strength and or cutting ability I don't get all worked up about them. And yes there are people here who don't like them either. Just calm yourself a little man. This is the internet. Someone is always going to disagree with you. Maybe even just to get a rise out of you.

 

[Dirk]

As far as hype in advertising, I let a lot of stuff pass. It is almost to the point where there isn't really an option on this. That is just the nature of thing. As far as other issues that companies and or makers have been involved with that might show them to be less then reputable, I strongly caution everyone, no matter where you may get your information and how trusted the source might be, there is always more to the story. AND, there is always two sides. I speak of this from experience. I once held a view about a company and felt my sources were accurate, I then was shown more information from persons directly involved and discovered that what my sources were saying wasn't even close and due to legal considerations, no information about what actually occurred would be forthcoming. In many cases, when someone holds a strong opinion about something, it is very difficult to get them to change their view.

That being said, there are certainly cases where the companies/persons actions are obvious and speak for themselves.

Cold Steel is a company that has been on both sides. They have done some questionable things in the past and at the same time, have done some very admirable things. One doesn't always out weigh or erase the other.

My opinion on Cold Steel is neutral. They don't have a product that I like, so I pay little attention to them. If a company I favored were accused or actually shown to do something disreputable, I would need to weigh out what was allegedly done, verify as best I could and weight that against what good they have done to come to a final conclusion.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Do you work for them?

He has admitted to having a detailed knowledge of the company and staff and still has a relationship with them. This however doesn't make you necessarily biased. I have known lots of knifemakers who were unbiased about their own knives and would speak about them as if they had nothing to do with them. You have to know the person of course to make this judgement call.

Cold Steel does a lot of things which send up flags such as critizing a material for years then all of a sudden promoting the exact same material (420 stainless) as something worthy of respect. You have to give Lynn credit though in regards to his claims of superiority, it isn't like there were a lot of people who responded and answered his challenge.

-Cliff

 

[USAFSP]

You have to give Lynn credit though in regards to his claims of superiority, it isn't like there were a lot of people who responded and answered his challenge.

-Cliff

Do you think it is because no one cared to? True about the other points you bring to the table. Exept for the tantos, I havn't seen anything superior in thier line of products. The new folders that are in the $300.00 range may be nice, but of course they are made by someone else. Who knows?

 

[Sword and Shield]

You have to give Lynn credit though in regards to his claims of superiority, it isn't like there were a lot of people who responded and answered his challenge.

-Cliff

No, actually, I don't. He may say that anyone else is scared, but there's another way of looking at it.

I lift weights, have for quite a few years. Last week, there was a guy in the gym who legpressed 350, and challenged anyone in the place to beat him. I can press 600. Yet, I didn't take him up on his challenge. Why? He wasn't worth the time.

I don't care for Cold Steel. Never have- the times I've dealt with them to get catalogs have been unpleasant, and their knives simply aren't worth what they ask.

Their biggest test is stabbing into a car hood. Last month, I took a DeWalt reciprocating saw blade, ground it into a drop point, set it in a handle, and did the same. No damage, and this is with a 1/16th piece of flexible steel- basically, a short fillet knife.