Hype vs. Honesty

USAFSP said:
Yeah they used it in the Tri-folders before switching back to AUS-8, and there may have been another.
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I know they used to use 440C in some stuff, but not in their current lineup. Like I think they used to use it in their push dagger, which is now only 420.
 
Rat Finkenstein said:
I know they used to use 440C in some stuff, but not in their current lineup. Like I think they used to use it in their push dagger, which is now only 420.
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True, the AUS-10 Tri Folder I had, I bought in 2001, so that was a while back. Who knows what the heck they are using. See, they keep us confused so we don't know what to say!!:p
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Much of what they do is relevant to discriminating buyers, the lock strength tests, rope cutting, wood chopping/digging, heavy shock impact on some of the larger knives, etc. . the only problem is the performance isn't guaranteed so it is hype. Much of the commentary is biased because of opinions about Thompson, watch how a well liked maker gets reacted to when they do similar work. Thus the thread does have a point, but ignores that Thompson isn't innocent of causing the bias against him.

-Cliff
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Sorry folks- didn't mean to start this thread and then abandon it.

Cliff, we have had this debate before. I know that I am not going to change your mind on this issue, but again, I feel like I have to address it to present the another interpretation to the DVD and not repeating the tests.

As others have also stated on this forum- watch any car commercial with the car doing cool and amazing performance. At the bottom of the screen is it's disclaimer- Closed course. Professional driver. Do not attempt. Are the car makers saying that their cars won't do what you see? Of course not. This is something any company does to protect itself against Yahoos.

Imagine that, instead of LT saying that "some of these tests constitute gross abuse and can void your warranty" (note that he said "some" not "all", and "can" not "will"), but instead said, "Try our tests yourselves. We are so confident in our product that we know that it will stand up to those tests." If that were to happen, 2 things would occur: destroyed knives and lawsuits.

Imagine that you bought the one knife that had a interior stress fracture. Under normal use, the fracture would probably show itself as a crack, or might even break under pressure. Return it to the company for warranty, it is replaced, no problem. But instead, the first thing you do is put it in a vise, flex it toward your face, and you just can't be bothered to wear face/eye protection. Now not only is the knife broken, but chunks of shrapnel have put your eye out. Since LT said it was OK to do those tests, what do you do? Sue the crap out of LT and the company.

If we want to be intellectually honest, we can see the same results easily happening with spine-whacks, doing pull-ups against locks, weight testing, etc. Even something as simple as rope-cutting. Some skinny Yahoo watches all the rope-cutting, does not take the time to learn how to do it correctly, buys a Kukhri, swings it as hard as he can, overswings and buries the knife in his leg. Then cries foul saying, "Lynn said it was ok- I'm gonna sue."

You have chosen to take this standard that many companies use to protect themselves as an indictment of CS, it's warranty, and it's products. This simply is not true. You are well respected and have a big voice here on the forum, but, imho, you're wrong on this one and need to be called on it.
 
USAFSP said:
I dislike Cold Steel because of their trumped up claims. They are good cutting knives, but otherwise are no better than any other run of the mill, middle quality company. Thier owner, the great Lynn Thompson has been the topic of scandal more than once, but he is human, so who cares? You however seem to be a bit more on the obsessive side on how you talk about CS. Do you work for them? Do they give you free knives for getting all worked up and writing these thought out rants? I myself am a devote user of a certain knife company's knives and of a certain maker's knives, but other than talking about thier strength and or cutting ability I don't get all worked up about them. And yes there are people here who don't like them either. Just calm yourself a little man. This is the internet. Someone is always going to disagree with you. Maybe even just to get a rise out of you.
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Rant? Yes
Worked up? Not really. You and I have different definitions of "worked up".

I would like to know, however, how you qualify your statement that the claims are "trumped up" and they are no better than "run of the mill, middle quality company." I, and other CS fans and users, find that statement to not be true.

To answer your question-and I have answered this on other threads- I do not work for the company. I am not a CS Shill. I have friends who work for the comapny and am very framiliar with CS and its practices. The company and staff do not know about my defenses of them in this forum. This is is something I have chosen to do on my own.

I did so because I have not seen the venom directed toward other comapnies when criticisms are made. I know that CS make bold, controversial statements and actions. They also don't make statements they can't back-up. In all my posts, I have not ranted against other companies and their practices at all. There are things that I like and seriously don't like about other companies, thier products, and thier practices. I have not spewed bile at them like the CS haters do here. I try to be better than that, though sometimes I would like to make statements that are also bold and controversial- though I feel like I have to measure out my statements very carefully and make sure all my facts are straight. I understand the difference between fact and opinion. I want to make sue that my opinions are not presented as fact and vice-versa.

There- another rant :D
 
While reading this last post the 'Special Projects Christmas Sale' flyer came in the mail.

There are several pretty good looking knives in LTs line up. One I've always been tempted by is the Ti-Lites just to see if that little wing actually functions like I expect it would. (looks a Wave to me). I notice it is never pictured so you can see the knife closed for some reason. They have them priced at $44.99 for the sale. (Zytel) Not sure if that is good or not but I may just have to try one out to see. Guess I better shop around first and see how that price stands up though.

I tell you that buy five Ready Edge for $40 is a great deal. Those things are great users and super stocking stuffers.
 
The Camillus made knives are pretty good, as one would expect from Camillus, and at an affordable price point. Fortunately, most of the CS knives that appear in the various PX's I've seen were the Camillus ones.

Their DVD was somewhere between painfully boring and mildly Dadaist.
If I wanted to watch a fat man cut up meat, I could go to the local butcher. And the butcher wouldn't babble on about how hardcore he was.
 
DngrRuss1 said:
CS are a bunch of ripoff artists, their products don't match the hype, etc
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2 excellent examples.. thanks. both of these things are facts. also... a few others to add to the list:

-they don't have any designs that i find the least bit interesting (opinion)
-most of their items are overpriced for what you get (opinion)
-lynn thompson has been exposed as being invloved in some EXTREMELY unscrupulous behavior that causes me to not only dislike him but anything he is involved with (fact)
-the are many other companies make just as good or better knives and are owned and operated by people with better character (fact)

buy whatever you want but don't expect to convice people that CS isn't that bad. it's a waste of time because they are.
 
STR said:
One I've always been tempted by is the Ti-Lites just to see if that little wing actually functions like I expect it would. (looks a Wave to me).
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It does! :) I had gotten one of the original titanium models and I removed the thumb stud for a while because it opened so easily by using the guard as a Wave.
 
It does! I had gotten one of the original titanium models and I removed the thumb stud for a while because it opened so easily by using the guard as a Wave.
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Oh boy. I couldn't resist and ordered one just a bit ago only I got the 4" Zytel handled one in 440A. But hey, its sub zero quenched. ;)

I also grabbed up 10 of those Ready Edge knives for Christmas stocking stuffers. Those things are great for that and everyone I got one for before has raved about them. My wife uses her Mini Pal all the time.

I've had real good luck with a lot of the CS products. The Voyager and Vaqueros I have in my collection have held up just as well as anything else I own and in my opinion have locks just as strong as anything else out there. Granted not everything CS sells is the same quality but neither is anyone elses. I personally feel like they offer some of the best users you can find for the money.
 
DngrRuss1 said:
Some skinny Yahoo watches all the rope-cutting, does not take the time to learn how to do it correctly, buys a Kukhri, swings it as hard as he can, overswings and buries the knife in his leg. Then cries foul saying, "Lynn said it was ok- I'm gonna sue."
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By the same logic :

Someone phones up CS asks "Yeah I am working on the docks and need an aggressive rope cutter, does your serration pattern work well on thick hemp and poly ropes?" They answer "Sure.". So the guy buys the knife, attempts a cut at work and for any number of a multitude of reasons cuts himself badly. By your logic then Cold Steel is legally responsible because they said he could do it with the knife.

What Cold Steel does with their products isn't inherently more dangerous than the normal expected use, which is the main point you would need to argue, and thus replicating their testing would have a lower incidence of harm than actually using the products for a lot of "normal work". Consider for example using the tomahawks for felling, or the knives in martial situations.

As for any singling out of Cold Steel, that is completely false, I have said the same thing on many occasions when makers/manufactures have tried to use work done with their knives to promote them but not actually stand behind the claims made.

-Cliff
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C'mon Cliff, you are being disingenous here and you know it.

The reality is that anyone can sue anytime for any reason. I own a business and have to be very careful and make sure that all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed. Taking all the logical and some of the extreme precautions does not eliminate all of the possibilities of suit.

But, those precautions do reduce the number of problems dramatically. For a company to endorse some of the extreme behavior used to demonstrate their products as being ok for the general public to do is irresponsible.

CS is well aware that their knives are going to be used hard and tough. They are designed to do just that. But, I'm sorry, If some Yahoo decides to do pull-ups off his folder, it is not mounted in the same manner that CS mounted theirs for the dvd, and he falls and either cuts himself or breaks a leg, CS should have been responsible enough to at least say, basically, "don't try this at home".

Your leap in logic and asserts that CS should either not do any testing for public consumption, or give their customers the endorsement to act like a bunch of cutting-bending-breaking-maniacs, like the CS crew during a test or a video shoot. That seems a lot less responsible than the company performing these tests with professionals, and advising the public to do the same.
 
benchmademan said:
2 excellent examples.. thanks. both of these things are facts. also... a few others to add to the list:

-they don't have any designs that i find the least bit interesting (opinion)
-most of their items are overpriced for what you get (opinion)
-lynn thompson has been exposed as being invloved in some EXTREMELY unscrupulous behavior that causes me to not only dislike him but anything he is involved with (fact)
-the are many other companies make just as good or better knives and are owned and operated by people with better character (fact)

buy whatever you want but don't expect to convice people that CS isn't that bad. it's a waste of time because they are.
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Your first 2 points are opinion, and not open for contradiction since they are opinion.

The 3rd point- dont throw down that gauntlet and not be specific. If I were to say something like that about the crew at Benchmade, you would demand specifics and evidence- not opinion- and you would be right to do so.

Your 4th point, however, falls into opinion. "Character" is a matter of perspective and opinion. Certainly a couple example of which would be politics, or religon. People fo one side of the aisle, or of one faith are more inclined to think of those outside of of their own perspective as not having good character. To my knowledge, LT, although abrasive, tries to be honest. One might think that honesty and a willingness to stand up for one's beliefs, as well as the courage to withstand the slings and arrows of the opposition would be admirable qualities of character.

Again, I knew that I was not going to change the minds of the haters. That was never my goal. I am offering a differing opinion from the haters and have tried to be respectful of those on this board. I don't want to stoop to the name calling and mislabling that is rampant on this forum with regard to CS.

It is obvious by your handle that where your loyalties lie. Not even going to try to change that. But telling me to give up my goals here because it's a waste of time and CS isn't worth it tells me I must be doing something right.

You don't like what I have to say so I should just shut up... hmmm... not likely to happen. I don't surrender so easily in the face of opposition.

I'll try to keep this friendly and respectful. I hope you do the same.
 
Maybe they could have a disclaimer that some of the tests done can be dangerous, and result in injury. What does that have to do with the Fact that Cold Steel will not cover such acts with the warranty? Someone could sue just because they dropped a knife on their bare foot, because there was no warning label saying "wear shoes, dont drop on feet".

The idea that having a decent warranty opens them up to lawsuits is utterly ridiculous. There are companies that will warranty all that the cold Steel dvd shows, and more.

They use the videos to promote the toughness of their products, then turn around and say "dont do this stuff, our warranty wont cover it". That is just plain BS, no matter how you spin it. It is false advertising and shows a lack of confidence in their own products. (not that they actually make the products)
 
Cold Steel knows how to cover the bases. I have their catalogs and their DVD and tapes for "Proof" and "More Proof". Each one says on it plainly in black and white:

"Most of the tests shown in "More Proof" and "Sword Proof" are dangerous and should not be duplicated. These destructive tests constitute GROSS ABUSE of a blade. Duplicating these tests or altering the knife or sword will void the warranty. The warranty covers defects in materials and/or workmanship. It does not cover abuse or the effects of normal wear and tear."

The tests are simply to show that his products have nothing to hide and that unlike other companies they are not grossly exaggerating what the knives can handle or will handle before defeating or breaking. It is simply to prove their worth and anyone that reads their catalogs or watches their videos knows that these horrendous torture tests are just for demonstration. They are not saying you can buy their product and do this to it and that they'll cover it. In fact they make it very clear that they will not. I see nothing false in their advertisement.
 
Dngr Russ1-

Save your breath.Save our bandwith.

We will not buy from a maker who spends time & money attacking

other companies that he is jealous of. Period.
 
One of the things that bugs me A LOT is that CS uses what are basically liner locks, and lock backs, and says they perfected these locks that have completely different names. Maybe they have changed things on these locks a little, but there is NO description of how these locks work on their website. I won't buy a knife with a lock that I know nothing about.
 
From my understanding WalkingMan, Linerlock and Lockback are registered names, though the mechanisms are available for use by other companies. I may not be entirely accurate on this point, so I will research and find out.

I can tell you that in the Rockerlocks CS uses, they make sure that all the surfaces on the male and female ends of the lock meet at right angles to insure lock strength and integrity. Some manufactured knives not only tumble the blade steel, but also the lock parts which rounds off the edges and they do not grip each other with as much strength.

But as far as the names go, I'll try to get back on that after the weekend.
 
I know we've butted heads before, but I appreciate the info. Thanks. AFAIK, Lockback isn't a registered trademark, I've seen almost every company that uses it call it that. Since I think you know CS personel, please let them know that I, and probably many others, would like to see more detailed lock info on their website. Also, I've seen companies say that their knives have a locking liner, which doesn't infringe on the linerlock name. When I see a knife and a lock that's new, I don't like to guess or take the companies word that it is a good lock. I need to understand how it works too.
 
I just wanted to chime in here that having a CS representative (and forum) that listens would go a long way to establish credibility.
 
I would like to see a Cold Steel forum here as well. I even brought that up with them on the phone when I placed my order the other day.

One thing I always look at for judging what is good or bad at least in 'desireability' is how well the knives move on the used market.

Spyderco is probably one of the best here if not the best. You can have a Spydie and use it and carry it a long time and if the wife gives you too much grief you can list it or several others for sale and they move very fast and pretty much effortlessly. (I know I've had to do it many times as many other husbands have) Same goes for many of the Cold Steel knives. I've never had to sit on the ones I've listed for sale used for very long before they were bought up and it isn't like I gave them away either.

Based on the used market sales potential and my experiences in selling the knives I've owned from Cold Steel they hold their own IMO with Spyderco and exceed BenchMade. Without a doubt Cold Steel knives sell better and far exceeds Buck, Kershaw, Kab-Bar CRKT, and Gerber in moving them on the used market here on this forum or the KF. Not all are like this obviously but the good ones do move and move faster in my experience than any of the above with the exception of Spyderco. I don't see this as a bad or negative sign. In fact it speaks volumes as to the public opinion of the knives to me.
 
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