I dont like little survival kits.

shipwreck said:
Well Gadgetgeek, I have to object to this, shelter is what will save you from exposure. You need to go back to school on this. Shelter is even more primary than fire. You need to shelter from wind, rain, snow and in certain locals, sun. If you dont you'll die.
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agreed shelter is one of the most important and smash the compass yikes you sound like your taking everone hostiage. but it's great that im not the only one to over pack good planing on that. i like that you said it help keep the others calmer hadn't thought of that.
 
And Gadgetgeek, maybe if you are in a survival situation, you should just pretend to smash the compass, you know? like how tom cruise palmed the floppy disk in the first mission impossible movie? So the double agent Krueger couldnt' steal the noc list and betray all the undercover agents?
 
Shipwreck, I know what you mean, and by all means, if I had the time, I'd build as much shelter as possible, but I know from experience that my metabolism doesn't slow down much, until the tank is empty, then hypothermia hits very fast, even with good insulation, the fire just goes out. while some people may be able to handle cold, (one of my buddies doesn't think its winter until its -30 for a week, then the hoodies come out), I don't, I know that. this summer I had to pull the plug on a cave crawl after only an hour at -4c because I'd burned so much just crawling though the cave that i started shivering almost uncontrollably, while working very hard. I had to get out then and find calories before my core temp started to drop. If it was dark, I have the choice between a fast shelter and a fast fire, I'm going to go with fire. Would I recommend that kind of thinking to others, no, I'm not very close to what most people call normal anyway. I do relate my thinking in hopes that it will cause people to look at what THEY need, not the author of a survival book says that they SHOULD need.
and do what with the compass after that??
 
gadgetgeek said:
Shipwreck, I know what you mean, and by all means, if I had the time, I'd build as much shelter as possible, but I know from experience that my metabolism doesn't slow down much, until the tank is empty, then hypothermia hits very fast, even with good insulation, the fire just goes out. while some people may be able to handle cold, (one of my buddies doesn't think its winter until its -30 for a week, then the hoodies come out), I don't, I know that. this summer I had to pull the plug on a cave crawl after only an hour at -4c because I'd burned so much just crawling though the cave that i started shivering almost uncontrollably, while working very hard. I had to get out then and find calories before my core temp started to drop. If it was dark, I have the choice between a fast shelter and a fast fire, I'm going to go with fire. Would I recommend that kind of thinking to others, no, I'm not very close to what most people call normal anyway. I do relate my thinking in hopes that it will cause people to look at what THEY need, not the author of a survival book says that they SHOULD need.
and do what with the compass after that??
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Listen brother all Im going to say here is that I really recomend you give some serious thought to getting yourself a mylar space blanket for about 1 dollar and an emergency tube tent for 5 bucks, and carry them with you along with your bic and your knife. It doesnt have to be either or. Wrapping yourself in a space blanket takes less than a second, rigging a tube tent takes what? two seconds?
 
eastr, I had a very simple sleep out go very wrong because the leader forgot a few basic things. luckly it did not get to life threatening, but I did learn that not everyone plans like I would hope. I know it seems extreme, but it keeps people from trying to be a "hero". history shows that the group gets found, the guy that wandered off usually doesn't. remember that this is a lost situation. If we know where we are, or are likely to know in the morning, and keeping moving might be still a good option, then the compass still is an asset.
 
gadgetgeek said:
, if I'm in a group, the first thing after that is smash the compass. If I'm in charge, or not the compass means that someone will try to leave, either on their own, or with others, possibly with the gear that would ensure the survival of the rest, because it is the illusion of doing something, and it will likely end badly.
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This is probably why I do most of my hiking by myself. Smash the compass? What happens if no rescue comes? Huddle up and die? Staying in one place is fine if somebody knows roughly where you are, knows when you're expected back, etc. Things don't always happen that way. There have been times when the only rescue has been self rescue. To destroy a compass is self destructive at best and criminal at worst. What gives you the right to determine the best course of action for others?

Doc
 
I do carry a space blanket, and a tarp/poncho (I'm also planning of getting a nylon/mylar bivy sac). I hear what you guys are saying about shelter, and I do/ have recommended to others the same advice as a general rule. If there was time, daylight, then yes, shelter would be happening with the wood-pile for the fire. I'm talking about the extreme, daylight is gone, clock is ticking scenario (blood trailing a deer into the late evening and all of a sudden the deer tracks and the people tracks don't make sense, north is in the wrong place and the direction back to the truck isn't clear, it happened and I got very lucky that the clearing i found was the only one that was a landmark). I'm not as nutty as I seem, most of the time
 
DOC, what if I/ the leader/ the group pick the wrong direction. is that not just as criminal or self destructive. once all knowledge of location is gone, the compass becomes a liability. if the location is known, then it is still an asset, and yes self rescue may be the only option, and if it is, maybe rescue is surviving at the location or near by.
 
Ok so we all are in agreement that we are NOT GOING TO SMASH THE COMPASS! The other thing to note here is that, if you do have a compass with you, you want to be using it right from the begining, not after you get lost. Hell, I'd get lost in my back yard without my compass. I love my compass,(have a fondness for maps too, I should add) A compass can help me get around so well in the big woods, its like having a gaurdian angel along in. Consult your compass as soon as you set out, and refer to it often. Anybody want to be a hero in a group campout? Be the guy that knows how to get back home.
 
Originally posted by shipwreck

"I only really object to the mini kit because it fosters a skills over gear approach to packing a kit."
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I am in agreement with you that expedient gear for dealing fast with the immediate situation is important. (Skills are, too, of course.) When you have to get a fire going as fast as possible, a lighter is a good tool to have, even if you are a master at making fire by friction.
 
shipwreck I agree. totally, staying found is total the best thing ever. now I'm gonna go pry my feet from my mouth. I think I need to post even less and read even more. or start my own threads of chaos. hmmm
 
shipwreck said:
I've been spending a few days looking over the threads on other kits: tape, thread, fish hooks, saftey pins, a bit of aluminum foil. What am i going to do with any of that? ...

... it is damn hard to get food in the woods without a gun. ...

The reason for this thread is to challange notions of survival gear. Why have monofiliment, fish hooks and snare line instead of energy bars? ...
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I agree with your ideas here of what you think would be good to take in a kit, but I don't agree with you on what you think is of no importance. The amount of space required to stow the little things mentioned above that you would exclude is a small fraction of the space required for those energy bars, etc. that you want to take with you. I don't know what the countryside is like where you envision needing a personal survival kit, but in my part of the country there is much tasty, edible food in and around almost every ditch, mudhole, creek, and pond. To not take a small, basic fishing kit and a few other small items you think should be omitted would be foolish from my point of view. Take all the granola, energy, and lifeboat bars you can carry, too.
 
gadgetgeek, keep right on posting. This is how we all learn here, so IMHO, there is no right or wrong post, as long as it pertains to the forums reason for being here. And I don't believe that there is a right or wrong way of developing our skills. I do something and it works. I read someone elses method, or see someone do it better and I try it and I adapt. I become a better prepared outdoorsman. That's what it's all about.

As far as the gear we carry, Shipwreck likes the space blanket and a tube tent. Nothing at all wrong with that in my opinion. I prefer a USGI poncho, do carry mylar space blankets. Some rely entirely on their minikits and some, like me, prefer to keep a good mix of gear with them, which if nothing else, lessens the time it takes to get things done, when they need to get done in a hurry to begin with.

Do I carry a minikit with me? Yeah I do! Have I used it? Yeah I have! Was it a planned usage? Yeah it was and because I decided to use each and every item in my minikit on an outing, I know all gear will do, what I need them to do in an emergency. I keep some meds in my minikits, so I go through them every few months and make sure the gear is still in good working order and I replace the items that need replacing.
 
shipwreck said:
Ok so we all are in agreement that we are NOT GOING TO SMASH THE COMPASS! The other thing to note here is that, if you do have a compass with you, you want to be using it right from the begining, not after you get lost. Hell, I'd get lost in my back yard without my compass. I love my compass,(have a fondness for maps too, I should add) A compass can help me get around so well in the big woods, its like having a gaurdian angel along in. Consult your compass as soon as you set out, and refer to it often. Anybody want to be a hero in a group campout? Be the guy that knows how to get back home.
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A compass is good. Most particularly if you don't have an inborn or learned sense of direction. But it is good to learn navigation without a compass. In case some idjut smashes yours. Or you store it next to a knife and it points 15 degrees off. There are several ways to find North depending on the time of day. A analog watch, sticks in the dirt, stars. You do know how to locate Polaris in the sky, right?

As an older woodsman, I find it hard to understand how a person can get completely...lost. Dan'l Boone was once asked if he ever got lost on his famous travels. Nope, he said. But he had gotten turned around a mite for a few days. Temporary geographic dislocation syndrome I call it. It just makes sense to learn alternative ways to "find yourself".

Codger
 
I hear you Dr Mudd. And if I can have the bits and pieces plus what Im advocating, I"ll take it all. The thing is I dont want to be stuck out in the woods on a cold windy night, with snow or rain coming down and I reach into my survival kit and all I pull out is twine, a pencil and some safety pins. That is my point. I want a kit that gives me my basics on a platter. And is small enough so that I will take it with me when I set out.
 
gadgetgeek said:
DOC, what if I/ the leader/ the group pick the wrong direction. is that not just as criminal or self destructive. once all knowledge of location is gone, the compass becomes a liability. if the location is known, then it is still an asset, and yes self rescue may be the only option, and if it is, maybe rescue is surviving at the location or near by.
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There can never be a time when all knowledge of location is gone, unless somebody kidnapped you, blindfolded you and dropped you off in the boonies, and even then you might have some idea of where you were. You should never be in any area where you don't have some idea of the layout of the land, perhaps a mountain range to your north, a road to the southwest, etc. Before you set out in any unfamiliar area, take some time and look over maps of the area. Acquaint yourself with possible landmarks and the general lay of the land. These can be lifesavers in time of need.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to jump on you about this, but I urge you to rethink some of it. As far as fire vs shelters go, depends on the circumstances but in my mind, I find it hard to differentiate between the two - fire is shelter, and, shelter is fire at least as far as helping to maintain your internal fires.
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Originally posted by shipwreck

"I only really object to the mini kit because it fosters a skills over gear approach to packing a kit."

Maybe to a point, but in my mini kit, I carry a sparker. I do both hand drill and bow drill friction fire but a sparker is a hell of a lot easier. The essence of a mini kit, is that it is small enough to have with you at all times. Things like tube tents and space blankets are great to have when you need them, but most, I think, would not bother taking them on an afternoon hike, so in that case, they would be useless. And as far as a 'skills over gear approach' that should always be the goal.

Doc
 
Codger_64 said:
A compass is good. Most particularly if you don't have an inborn or learned sense of direction. But it is good to learn navigation without a compass. In case some idjut smashes yours. Or you store it next to a knife and it points 15 degrees off. There are several ways to find North depending on the time of day. A analog watch, sticks in the dirt, stars. You do know how to locate Polaris in the sky, right?

As an older woodsman, I find it hard to understand how a person can get completely...lost. Dan'l Boone was once asked if he ever got lost on his famous travels. Nope, he said. But he had gotten turned around a mite for a few days. Temporary geographic dislocation syndrome I call it. It just makes sense to learn alternative ways to "find yourself".

Codger
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Codger just for the record, its a scientific fact that humans have no in born sense of direction. People who are good at finding there way, are simply responding to enviromental cues, in every case when people are deprived of those cues in controlled settings they lose their sense of direction.

The fact that even a master woodsman like Boone got lost always struck me as a very important reason to carry and consult a compass when Im in the wilderness.

I never want to get to the point in my life where I make the mistake of hubris and think that now Im a seasoned woodsman and im not going to get lost or get into a situation where I can die from hypothermia or get sick and get into some real trouble. Just like any ring fighter can get knocked out, so can any woodsman get into deadly trouble far from home in the woods. As I have said many times already in this thread, cultivate as much skill as you can and learn to be at ease in the woods. For alot of us, the woods are our refuge. But always respect nature by equiping yourself with the gear you need to survive for when you make mistakes and nature becomes something other than your friend.
 
Then we'll have to just agree to disagree on this. I still believe that skills and knowledge are more important than a fifty pound pack of goodies. And there are people who can almost unerringly (is that a word?) find their way in most situations. Hubris has nothing to do with it. Directionfinding is a skill that some have a natural affinity for. Some folks admit they get lost in their own back yards. But maybe the ones with the skills are just more naturally attuned to the "cues" as you call them.

I can usually find my way both into and out of trouble with ease. And that is a fact, scientific or not! ;)

Codger
 
Codger: There is no room for disagreement on the question of inborn sense of direction. There is no such thing. That debate has been settled a long time ago. Some people are better at navigating than others but it comes from external cues not from an inner compass. Humans are not built that way.

I agree 100 percent about some people having a natural affinity for the skill of direction finding(again not from an inner compass but from awareness of external cues) but that skill should not lead to overconfindence. It is easy to get lulled into a sense of competence and security in familiar territory but trekking in unfamiliar terrain with unknown weather can humble that same confident woodsman in a hurry. And put him in a dangerous situation.

As far as skill and knowledge versus the fifty pound pack of goodies, again, Im not arguing against skill and knowledge, im advocating for carrying practical gear if you are going to carry any gear at all.

To use as simple an analogy as I can to illustrate the point Im making, Ill put it like this: better to use a knife than a flimsy scalpel for survival.(ok that is the analogy Im making, an inferior item compared to a better item) Better to carry a small kit that contains instant shelter elements, better to have a cup than foil, better to carry a kit that adresses your need for shelter, fire , water in the most direct manner possible. Better that, than a kit that is cleverly small but lacking in what you need to make your night in the woods alot easier.

Never did say anything about a fifty pound pack in the first place, because its unlikely that you would have such a pack in many situations leading up to a survival situations, that's why Im saying build a kit small enough to carry easily but big enough to easily and quickly provide you with the important basics.
 
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