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I give up I cant sharpen $#!* 2nd update page 5
- Thread starter okbow68
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Okay you guys, I strop strop strop and am hair popping sharp but not tree topping or whittling hair. Would I benefit from going from DMT EF stone to say a 3 micron or a 1 micron paste and work it for a while and then down to the .05 micron green compound ? Thanks sharpmasters!
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A progression can make a big difference. The other thing that might hold you back if all else is in order - your strop should not be too conforming. In my own experience if my strop is not virtually solid then I don't get the best results with the finer particles. I've tried stropping on a hardwood board and it gave me poor results, so for me, it has to be something in between. I haven't tried balsa or MDF - yet. Currently I find with a 3 strop progression I can get to tree topping from a 400 grit sheet of sandpaper. From a DMT EF approx 1200 grit you should be very close with one strop, using an intermediate one might be the ticket for you. Also, the difference between hair popping and tree topping can be as close as a slight fine-tuning of your technique or a change-up to your strop material, and not necessarily your abrasive size. You're right at the threshold, just keep paying attention to cause and effect and you're sure to get there. One last bit of advice, once you get your basic skills strong start sharpening as many different knives as you can. Having to adjust technique to a variety of bevel angles and edge radii will help cement your muscle memory, form, and perception of feedback.
HH
HH
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I just started experimenting with balsa for stropping. I've been using a leather strop block loaded with Simichrome, and I tried the same compound on balsa. What you noted about not getting the same results on a softer backing, became immediately obvious to me when I tried the Simichrome on the balsa. Removes a LOT more metal quickly, as evidenced by the drastic difference in the blackening of the balsa, versus the Simichrome on leather (that strop still hasn't gotten very 'dirty' yet, and I've been using it for at least 2 or 3 months now). Really hammers home the idea that the compound works a lot more effectively, when it has something firm(ish) in which to embed itself.
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Have you tried anything harder than balsa yet?
One thing I did and it made an immediate difference was to apply some paraffin to the leather of some strops I had around that I felt were too soft. I heated it with a hot air gun and repeated a half dozen times. I remembered that hot wax on leather is/was a common technique for hardening it up for use as armor or to firm up a sheath/holster. It worked like a champ and I wound up not throwing these old strops away. I can just dig a fingernail into it, otherwise it has no perceptible give when pressed with a fingertip. Edges glide across it with real good feedback.
HH
One thing I did and it made an immediate difference was to apply some paraffin to the leather of some strops I had around that I felt were too soft. I heated it with a hot air gun and repeated a half dozen times. I remembered that hot wax on leather is/was a common technique for hardening it up for use as armor or to firm up a sheath/holster. It worked like a champ and I wound up not throwing these old strops away. I can just dig a fingernail into it, otherwise it has no perceptible give when pressed with a fingertip. Edges glide across it with real good feedback.
HH
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I did mess around with green compound (and some white, I think) on MDF a while back, before my 'skills' were worthy of it. I did notice how aggressive it was, as with the balsa, but I was still learning the process, and couldn't draw any conclusions based on my results at the time. My mind is gearing up toward using harder/firmer strops, so I'll likely get back around to trying MDF or hardwood again. I still have some DMT Dia-Paste that I'd bought a few months ago, but haven't cracked the seal on it yet. I've been surprised at how well I like the Simichrome, so I've been sticking with it for the time being.
I do like your idea about waxing the leather to firm it up. I'm betting it holds compound very well too.
silenthunterstudios
Slipjoint Addict
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Scott Gossman has showed me how to get an edge using a diamond rod. I have used a Smiths Lansky style sharpener, Spyderco Sharpmaker, and a couple of Smiths and other diamond rods, folding sharpeners and paddles. I have butchered many a good edge. I have gotten great edges on a Ritter Grip (S30V), but failed miserably on 420HC. Technique, so I am "honing" (sorry) my skills on an old Buck.
I just joined this forum because I am having the same difficulty getting a hair shaving, paper cutting edge on my knives. I am up to a Wicked Edge system now and still I can't get a knife shaving sharp. I spent 2 hours last night on a new knife I just got ( Ontario SP6 ) and it's no sharper than when I started.
After reading this thread I think I know what I have been doing wrong. I have not developed a wire edge on 1 side before I start on the other side and I need some magnification to see what I am doing to my blade. I have been concentrating more on keeping the strokes even on both sides.
It looks like I am further behind than you are okbow68, at least you were getting a wire edge. I will try now for a wire edge on each side and not worry about counting strokes and see where that gets me. Once I get it I will change the angle slightly with each stone using less pressure and take my time.
Let me know if it sounds like I am on the right track.
Congratulations on your sucess I am hoping for the same.
After reading this thread I think I know what I have been doing wrong. I have not developed a wire edge on 1 side before I start on the other side and I need some magnification to see what I am doing to my blade. I have been concentrating more on keeping the strokes even on both sides.
It looks like I am further behind than you are okbow68, at least you were getting a wire edge. I will try now for a wire edge on each side and not worry about counting strokes and see where that gets me. Once I get it I will change the angle slightly with each stone using less pressure and take my time.
Let me know if it sounds like I am on the right track.
Congratulations on your sucess I am hoping for the same.
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Not sure what you're meaning, about changing the angle slightly with each stone. If you're meaning to remove the wire edge, do that only with lighter pressure on the subsequent hones. Keep the angle the same. Changing the angle slightly with each hone would only tend to blunt or round the finished edge.
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It holds the compound very well yes, the biggest advantage I've noticed is the improved feedback. Hard to describe, but I can better feel the apex by quite a bit. The other advantage is the ability to use otherwise unsuitable cuts of leather for a strop. I made two for my machetes and larger cutters, and am glad I could use a 5 dollar cut of dyed leather from a local craft shop instead of having to buy something a little nicer. There's no way those pieces could have been used to finish an edge without some sort of treatment. They were so thick and soft I had to heat up the wax and smooth the nap down with a flat chunk of hardwood as they cooled off (I used the muscle side of the scrap). Again, half a dozen of this treatment and they do a very fine job. Until I built jumbo sized sanding blocks and strops I never really got my machetes this sharp. Used to be hit 'em with a file and a kitchen steel, now they can shave arm hair and likely do a respectable job on my face. Not tree-topping, I'd have to make one more strop with the fine stuff and I just can't be bothered to go that far for a machete that'll get hammered on withing minutes of being unsheathed...yet. Plus, my gear bag might not fit another 4x18 strop.
HH
Red Knife you listen to these guys on here. They are the only reason I am where I am. Lots of good knowledge in this thread. I plan on getting some diamond sprays 3 micron, 1 micron, then green compound which is .5 micron and then some .25 diamond spray. You guys are great keep stearing me in direction of wicked lazer sharpness. 
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Hey folks, this is a great thread, especially for guys like me. I have used Arkansas stones for some 40 years, but to be perfectly honest, I have never felt like I did anything worthwhile on my sharpening. I just a short while ago decided, after all these years, to buy new sharpening stuff. I just got a DMT Duosharp with 25 micro on one side and 9 micron on the other. Moreover, I got a Shapton Professional 5000 stone.
If I were to say I am knowledgeable about how to really get a good edge on knives at my age of 64, I would be bearing false witness for sure. Heck, most of you have forgotten more than I know now or will know in my remaining years.
I will share this with you: with my new goodies, I have been able to get a much sharper edge on my non-convex knives than ever before. I have a custom flat ground stainless blade that for the life of me I have not been able to get sharp enough. Even though I have a long ways to go on this knife, it is sharper than it ever has been! My technique: 1) magic marker to aid in getting the angle right; 2) start with the 25 micro and go SLOW!; 3) 10 - 8 - 5 - 3 -1 on each side; 4) lighter touch; 5) do not move to the 9 micro whetstone until I have got the burr thing down and can shave; 6) move to 9 micron; 7) move to the 5000 Shapton; 8) move to leather strop at the very end. Patience, a virtue that I have proven that I have very little of, is really important here.
For my whole two convex knives, including the very expensive $8 Opinel folder, I have used the sandpaper+mouse pad+leather strop method. I get 'em really sharp that way. Probably now will have to go out and buy some Bark River knives and a Fallkniven or two.
Blessings to all of you from an old fart.
If I were to say I am knowledgeable about how to really get a good edge on knives at my age of 64, I would be bearing false witness for sure. Heck, most of you have forgotten more than I know now or will know in my remaining years.
I will share this with you: with my new goodies, I have been able to get a much sharper edge on my non-convex knives than ever before. I have a custom flat ground stainless blade that for the life of me I have not been able to get sharp enough. Even though I have a long ways to go on this knife, it is sharper than it ever has been! My technique: 1) magic marker to aid in getting the angle right; 2) start with the 25 micro and go SLOW!; 3) 10 - 8 - 5 - 3 -1 on each side; 4) lighter touch; 5) do not move to the 9 micro whetstone until I have got the burr thing down and can shave; 6) move to 9 micron; 7) move to the 5000 Shapton; 8) move to leather strop at the very end. Patience, a virtue that I have proven that I have very little of, is really important here.
For my whole two convex knives, including the very expensive $8 Opinel folder, I have used the sandpaper+mouse pad+leather strop method. I get 'em really sharp that way. Probably now will have to go out and buy some Bark River knives and a Fallkniven or two.
Blessings to all of you from an old fart.
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Don't move to the finer stones unless that burr is all there. Also seems kind of slow just to raise a burr really. I mean, it doesn't take much more than 2 minutes for me to raise a burr on S90V and S110V using my WorkSharp.
grunt soldier
Gold Member
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tag for some great info
I use Spyderco Ultra Fine after DMT EF. It gets me to hair-splitting sharpness, and that's where I stop.
You might benefit from having a stone to finish your edge before you start using a strop and pastes.
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This isn't directed at any one post in particular, but just a very general observation from someone that had to learn about 80% of their sharpening skills by tortuous trial-and error (the other 20% came from online articles and sites including this one).
If you're just starting out and trying to get a grip on how to proceed with the basics of freehand sharpening (or guided for that matter), get some cheap knives and a very coarse stone. Practicing on a real metal eating stone will teach you an awful lot about edge angle, grind angle, maintaining the edge angle around a radius, and raising a burr, and it'll do it quickly. Once you understand these things, moving to more and more refined stones becomes a lot less "mysterious". As your abilities improve and you know what to look for, you will no longer need to use these real coarse stones unless you're doing some serious repair/reprofiling work (or need a really coarse edge for whatever reason). A great deal of discouragement comes from using too fine a stone and not being able to accurately gauge what is happening, especially if its the first time you're having a go at a factory edge. It takes some experience to appreciate just how out-of-whack many edges are from the factory, and how much grinding might be needed to correct the bevel and raise that first burr along the entire edge. Very easy to think you're doing something wrong and constantly tweak your approach, when the real problem is not staying with what you're doing long enough or not using an aggressive enough stone to tell exactly what you are doing. Your technique very well may need correcting, but unless you know what your actions are producing, you cannot accurately make those corrections.
Relax, take your time, stop often. One Sharpie will last a long time, be generous with it.
HH
If you're just starting out and trying to get a grip on how to proceed with the basics of freehand sharpening (or guided for that matter), get some cheap knives and a very coarse stone. Practicing on a real metal eating stone will teach you an awful lot about edge angle, grind angle, maintaining the edge angle around a radius, and raising a burr, and it'll do it quickly. Once you understand these things, moving to more and more refined stones becomes a lot less "mysterious". As your abilities improve and you know what to look for, you will no longer need to use these real coarse stones unless you're doing some serious repair/reprofiling work (or need a really coarse edge for whatever reason). A great deal of discouragement comes from using too fine a stone and not being able to accurately gauge what is happening, especially if its the first time you're having a go at a factory edge. It takes some experience to appreciate just how out-of-whack many edges are from the factory, and how much grinding might be needed to correct the bevel and raise that first burr along the entire edge. Very easy to think you're doing something wrong and constantly tweak your approach, when the real problem is not staying with what you're doing long enough or not using an aggressive enough stone to tell exactly what you are doing. Your technique very well may need correcting, but unless you know what your actions are producing, you cannot accurately make those corrections.
Relax, take your time, stop often. One Sharpie will last a long time, be generous with it.
HH
Still not tree topping or hair whittling but still keeping at it. I did get some 3 micron 1 micron and .25 micron diamond spray. I havent put them to use yet. Just got my leather in today to make some more strops. My plan is DMT EF then 3, 1, .05 green compound, and then .25 micron stropping. How does that progression sound to you sharpening experts? Opinions please.