I Hate Stainless!!!!!

[Hair]

The whole "I don't need stainless because I can take care of my knives" thing is bunk.

Why do people like good steel with good edge retention? So the knife stays sharp longer and requires less edge maintainence.

Anyone can take care of their knife, but having to spend less time preventing and removing rust is a good thing. That doesn't mean stainless is always better, but it does mean that more stain resistance is, by itself, a pro.

I can take care of my car, but that doesn't mean I want a car that needs a tune-up every 200 miles.

For people that live in moist conditions, caring for a carbon or tool steel blade can take a lot of extra work just as using 420J2 can take a lot of extra work to keep sharp.

Because I wipe my blades down after use no matter what steel they are, I haven't had any rust problems with my carbon steel or tool steel knives. But if I lived closer to the ocean or somewhere otherwise moist, it could be an issue.

Because I fear rust, whenever I use a knife, I wipe it down afterward. This takes time, and when I am at work, it takes time out of work.

Sometimes I need to cut open a box or a bundle while still needing to keep up feeding the ad inserts into the machine. Wiping the blade down can and has gotten my behind.

When a blade is a steel I know resists rust well, or is coated, I can decide not to wipe it down if the machine is going fast enough that doing so will get me behind. I can care for my knives, but duty calls.

This is just one example.

Knives are tools and good tools can get the job done well and fast. No matter what knife task is at hand, the ability to finish the job quickly and without having to worry about wiping the knife down can save time and make the tool more effective.

If, for example, you need a knife to cut *many* oranges, then a stainless blade would be a better choice. Having to "care" for a carbon blade during the process would cost a lot of time. A coating of oil only lasts so long, and sometimes would have to be reapplied during a job, or just before a job.

Time is money, so why is spending money to save maintainence time a bad thing? To take it to the extreme, would you buy a knife that would rust every 5 minutes and needed constant attention? Probably not. Well, the amount of maintainence you accept may not be acceptable by others. That doesn't make them stupid, of their steel of choice junk. It means they'd rather save that time just as many want to save time on sharpening or having their car in the shop.

I can take very good care of my carbon and tool steel knives, but still enjoy the piece of mind and lack of maintainence that stainless blades give. As an OCD sufferer and a general worry-wart, being able to use a knife and just put it back in my pocket without having to worry is nice. Stainless steel isn't just aimed at lazy people that can't take the time out of their day to oil a knife. It is also aimed at people that like peice of mind and enjoy not having to spend extra time caring for one of their nearly 100 knives.

If all stainless steel performed like 420J2, then it would be a problem. But high-end stainless steel is very good, so you can get the cutting performance and the stain resistance. If the task at hand doesn't require stain resistance, then carbon or tool steel may very well be a better choice.

One thing to remember is that steel types are just general terms. If it has more than 14% Chrome, it is stainless. The differences are not huge bold lines, but rather, it is all on a continium with carbon, tool, and stainless determined by thin lines placed in arbitrary spots on this line.

I don't see how someone can hate a steel with 14.1% chrome, but not one with 13.9%. Some tool and carbon steels are more similar to stainless steels than they are to other carbon and tool steels.

All I am saying is that:

Knives are good. Steel is good. Different steel have different pros and cons. Let's have fun.

 

[flipe8]

One has to be extremely neglectful to let a carbon steel tool be compromised by corrosion. I guess those are the people whom the stainless market is aimed at.

Is it neglect to go to a fire(or any number of jobsites) and have your knife rusted shut at the pivot when you take it out to use less than 3 hours later? If that's the case, you can call me neglectful. Or you could say some things excel at certain tasks better than others like I said earlier. I'm not knocking one or the other, but if one product can't take real world use(my world, anyways) without a daily oiling, while one can, I'll take the latter.

 

[OleyFermo]

I have often wondered how the human race survived prior to stainless steel. I can visualize some sailor weeping, his knife corroded into a pile of rust before his sailing ship was a day out of port; or a long ago butcher, cursing a smith's family for a hundred generations as his blades dulled instantly from all the corrosive fluids it encounterd from daily use. Poor souls! Knifeless! Victims of that dreaded rust! Suckers taken in by those wily bladesmiths.

Glad I wasn't a smith back then. I can just hear the crowd pounding on the shop door, shouting, "We want stainless! Give us stainless!", as I frantically slather oil on the door hinges / locks / latches / pintles in an attempt to save my life by keeping the iron from rusting away in minutes, allowing my furious customers in.

Rust is such a problem that I find it a continuing mystery in that I have not ever gotten a complaint from a customer that his knife had rusted beyond redemption... or even 'rusted' for that matter. They seem to like a bit of patina after a decade of using their knives, but apparently they don't know that the nice brownish color is 'rust'.

Ignore my ramblings, though. I'm a bit prejudiced.

Jimmy 'Old High Carbon' Fikes

 

[Doug C]

Nothing like a little Jimmy 'Old High Carbon' Fikes to add a little levity to the Great Stainless vs. High Carbon Debate of Ought-Six.:thumbup:

Doug

 

[buckg]

I have often wondered how the human race survived prior to stainless steel. I can visualize some sailor weeping, his knife corroded into a pile of rust before his sailing ship was a day out of port; or a long ago butcher, cursing a smith's family for a hundred generations as his blades dulled instantly from all the corrosive fluids it encounterd from daily use. Poor souls! Knifeless! Victims of that dreaded rust! Suckers taken in by those wily bladesmiths.

I appreciate the humor. The reason people were happy is that they expected steel to be discolored. Sailors polished their blades and firearms regularly in an attempt to keep them "bright". Note that I said "polished", not wiped down. Firearms for use on land we kept with a "browned" finish, which you note was actually rust. Only the bore was kept "bright". If you don't mind routinely polishing the blades of your knives, then you can keep your carbon steel knives bright and shiney in the salt air. For me, that's just too much work. Routine cleaning and sharpening is fine, but routine polishing is just more effort than I want to spend.

 

[flipe8]

OK, OK. I'm gonna go find me a carbon blade. But if I like it, what am I gonna do with my Spydies?... Somebody give me a name of a relatively easy knife to go find at a hunting store that's not going to break the bank. Slip joint so I'll be able to carry daily. I'll let it take place of my SAK.

 

[Hair]

A cheap, easy-to-find carbon steel knife is a basic Opinel. Make sure you get a carbon steel version and not a stainless steel version.

They are small and light (well, the small models are small- there are also larger ones) and are great examples of traditional carbon steel folders.

I work very close to the Pacific Ocean, and can usually smell it from inside the warehouse. All I do is wipe my Opinel with a Tuf-Cloth before taking it to work, and I have had no rust problems. And what I do is probably a lot more than is needed to be done.

 

[Thomas Linton]

I have often wondered how the human race survived prior to stainless steel. I can visualize some sailor weeping, his knife corroded into a pile of rust before his sailing ship was a day out of port; or a long ago butcher, cursing a smith's family for a hundred generations as his blades dulled instantly from all the corrosive fluids it encounterd from daily use. Poor souls! Knifeless! Victims of that dreaded rust! Suckers taken in by those wily bladesmiths.

Glad I wasn't a smith back then. I can just hear the crowd pounding on the shop door, shouting, "We want stainless! Give us stainless!", as I frantically slather oil on the door hinges / locks / latches / pintles in an attempt to save my life by keeping the iron from rusting away in minutes, allowing my furious customers in.

Rust is such a problem that I find it a continuing mystery in that I have not ever gotten a complaint from a customer that his knife had rusted beyond redemption... or even 'rusted' for that matter. They seem to like a bit of patina after a decade of using their knives, but apparently they don't know that the nice brownish color is 'rust'.

Ignore my ramblings, though. I'm a bit prejudiced.

Jimmy 'Old High Carbon' Fikes

NOT a fan of the Stainless Steel Rat scifi series.

 

[stevekt]

Stainless steels are a great modern advancement. Yes, people did get along fine for many years without them. People also managed for many years without the internal combustion engine, the computer, cellular phones, vaccines, toilet paper, toothpaste, deoderant, and Starbucks Coffee. Try getting along without those modern advancements today. I'm not saying it is impossible but it is difficult and inconvenient.

I'm sure when the first metal edged tools came out there were a bunch of old school guys who were adamant about their flint rock napped edged tools.

"Me like rock knife! No need for new metal knife! Metal knife for girly man!"

 

[SpyderJon]

My EDC is cleaned every day, but it doesn't need to be just by the nature of its' material.

Can I ask what your EDC is? I'm just curious, wondering if its something like the Boye knife or some such.

 

[buckg]

OK, OK. I'm gonna go find me a carbon blade. But if I like it, what am I gonna do with my Spydies?... Somebody give me a name of a relatively easy knife to go find at a hunting store that's not going to break the bank. Slip joint so I'll be able to carry daily. I'll let it take place of my SAK.

Lots of choices out there. Cold Steel's slipjoints are carbon steel and go for less than $50 on the internet. There are certainly better knives out there, but you could pick one of these up to carry around for a while to see if carbon steel blades are going to work for you.

 

[Big Ugly Tall Texan]

... And Case's yellow and amber bone handle knives in CV steel are supposed to be excellent.

I had done a couple of ebay searches for carbon knives without finding anything that appealed to me. This morning, I tried again, and one of those CASE folders popped up. For less than $30, the knife could have been made for me.

And whoever it was that told me this would be a hot topic wasn't lying.

As a former newspaper reporter, I just LOVE controversy.

 

[buckg]

I work very close to the Pacific Ocean, and can usually smell it from inside the warehouse. All I do is wipe my Opinel with a Tuf-Cloth before taking it to work, and I have had no rust problems. And what I do is probably a lot more than is needed to be done.

Maybe this is more of an advertisement for Tuf-Cloth than for carbon steel
I think I'm going to buy some of it. Seriously though, smelling the salt in the air isn't the same thing as being close enough to have salt residue on your clothes. That's the situation that I'm frequently faced with.

Sentry Tuf Cloth

A long-lasting lint-free replacement for oil and silicone rags to protect any of your tools, knives and any other pieces of gear made with metal parts and finishes

Sentry uses a mixture of dry film corrosion inhibitors and lubricants to provide a fast-drying, water-displacing MICRO-BONDING CRYSTAL BARRIER against rust, friction and wear

The water-proof shield will not attract dirt and it won't leave a slippery film like silicone

TUF-CLOTH protects more than 14 times longer than the competition
​

Sounds like good stuff.

 

[Hair]

It is good, but there are a lot of other options out there. Tuf-Cloth is just what I use. I can't say I know what works best.

 

[Boats]

The whole "I don't need stainless because I can take care of my knives" thing is bunk.

Well, I am hardly "anti-stainless," in that I admittedly own and sometimes use such blades, but I stand by the notion that stainless steel is unnecessary for a diligent owner/user in the vast majority of environments. For instance, I use a Spyderco H-1 Pacific Salt (yes my fix on the clip has held up), when I actually go to the beach or out on the open ocean. For that limited purpose, it is the best convergence between utility and maintenance requirements. I only appreciate H-1 because it is in a folder, which is more difficult to keep up in such an environment. I would never buy a H-1 fixed blade because I think my standard regimen with carbon steel has held up just fine in such an environment, because fixed blades are far easier to care for than folders.

Everywhere else, I have found that level of corrosion resistance to be overkill. Stainless fans go on about what an ordeal it must be to prevent rust on a carbon steel knife on a daily basis, even resorting to reducto ad absurdium examples of "constant" maintenance requirements.

It just ain't so. A little inspection, a little care, and a routine go a long way and take under less than a minute once a day in the field. Twice if one has crossed a stream or engaged in other activities where the knife might be allowed to oxidize if not checked.

Rust, and the fear or it, is just not as big a deal as many make it out to be. It is the expectation that a knife must be perpetually shiny to be in good shape that has warped the perception of carbon steel blades as everyday users in the vast majority of working environments.

 

[Hair]

I never said most people *need* a stainless knife.

But no one *needs* a carbon steel knife (versus a stainless one) either.

I never said it was hard to take care of a carbon steel knife. But not having to is definitly an advantage. And in the case of good stainless steel, it is an advantage with almost zero downsides for most knife tasks. Carbon steel is usually tougher, but most people don't use knives to chop.

It's not that rust or rust prevention/removal is a big deal. It's that having more than 14% chromium isn't any bigger of a deal.

I am not saying one is better than the other. I am saying they each have their place. Some people, based on what they use knives for and their personal wants and needs, prefer one or the other- most enjoy both depending on the circumstances. You seem to agree, so I don't understand your reply.

Saying that the "I don't need stainless because I take care of my knives" thing is bunk doesn't mean I think anyone needs stainless. It means that being able to care for a knife doesn't mean that stainless is worthless.

Again, I can take care of my car, but having a car that can run well on less maintainence is a good thing. At the same time, a car with a more highly strung engine (which makes more power but requires more attention) is better for joy rides. They both have a place. But an engine that requires less care will appeal more to the masses. I'd like a car that requires less attention for my little errands, and a highly-strung sports car for weekends. Likewise with knives, I enjoy having knives that require virtually no maintainence and can be "neglected", while at the same time I am caring for my carbon steel knives and enjoying their toughness. If I had to care for 100 carbon steel knives, I might think about curbing my knife-buying. But with only so many carbon steel knives and the rest being stainless, I don't have to lay awake at night worrying about my knives.

It's not that having to care about a fleet of carbon steel knives actually takes a ton of work. It's that I have OCD and worry about anything anytime. Stainless steel lets me worry less, and that lets me enjoy my knives more.

Whether my worries are warrented or not really doesn't matter. But either way, more stain resistance is more stain resistance. That lets me worry less even if the amount of worry lost is not proportional to the amount of rust resistance gained.

 

[flipe8]

Can I ask what your EDC is? I'm just curious, wondering if its something like the Boye knife or some such.

My EDC of the day is a Spyderco Dragonfly SS and I meant it could be used with minimal maintenance day to day for most ordinary tasks. A rinse and a wipe have been all it's needed to this point. Also carry a Cadet SAK. To this point, I only have Spydercos and SAKs for EDC.At work, I carry a D'Allara Rescue in my bunker gear(that does get cleaned regularly) and Gerber Shorty on my PFD. No Boye or Salt Series yet.
My earlier comments were based on my experiences with how different SS knives and my only carbon dealt with work environment. I don't really think carbon is "hard to maintain", but it is more likely to react nagatively to a lapse in maitenance.

 

[Barrabas]

Ok, I'm a fence rider - I like high Carbon/ and I like Stainless,
but to date I've not found a heavy duty carbon folder nice enough to displace my Strider / or a Seb..

This is really a plea to you carbon enthusiests : Is there such an animal?

Don't want to take this way off topic, but had to ask..

 

[beefangusbeef]

Wow I come back a day later and this threat has exploded! I don't think there are many carbon steel folders because the steel isn't the best suited for that task. Benchmade used to make some models in M2, but that's high speed, and now they use d2. I have quite a few semi-stainless knives and stainless and only a few carbon ones. I would say for edge holding and stain resistance the carbon knives always fall in last. They are easier to sharpen though and tough. Rust prone machine guns and rifles are enough to worry about let alone knives that start to rust after some light rain. Even morning dew will turn some carbon steel knives into rust buckets and dawn is when the french and indans attack

 

[HoB]

I think what gets me the most often are temperature changes that can happen in all but the driest atmospheres. You come in from the cold, haven't used your knife you had in your jacket and you don't even consider wiping it down, and it condenses moisture...