I hate super steels- please reccomend me a manufacturer of super soft steel

[craytab]

Craytab,

I'm confused.

This is a matter of preference

And I did address that in what I said by using phrases like "don't want to sharpen" (that is their preference) and "I know it is not this way for everyone" (it is my preference but I know it is not other people's).

It amazes me none the less. Just my opinion.

 

[B34NS]

And I did address that in what I said by using phrases like "don't want to sharpen" (that is their preference) and "I know it is not this way for everyone" (it is my preference but I know it is not other people's).

It amazes me none the less. Just my opinion.

I've never had a knife I couldn't sharpen. Much like some whom love vintage cars, but don't want to directly maintain them. Not much I can say to help this.

 

[bodog]

That's not really the problem.

The real problem is the misinformation that is floating around about how difficult the higher carbide steels are to sharpen.

They aren't difficult at all to sharpen, trivial really with simple things like ceramic sticks and Loaded strops so a person doesn't really need anything fancy to maintain them.

Silicon Carbide stones etc have been around for as long as I can remember (40+ years) and will handle any steel without much of an issue.

There are only two people who I see constantly using the word trivial, and it happens to be you and a guy you can't stand, Cliff. For some reason I find that amusing, like you and he are the two sides of the same coin

 

[Ankerson]

There are only two people who I see constantly using the word trivial, and it happens to be you and a guy you can't stand, Cliff. For some reason I find that amusing, like you and he are the two sides of the same coin

Trivial sounds better than easy.

I don't dislike Cliff, I just don't agree with 98% of what he says.

 

[Steel130]

In my opinion it isn't that steels themselves are hard to sharpen per say. I think it has to do somewhat with the trend of chunky, thick behind the edge knives. The thicker the edge is behind the knife, the more metal you have to remove, if you are freehanding the edge, you have to be more precise to make sure you are hitting the apex, and not just slightly above on the bevel. I have had some very high carbide steels that didn't really cause an issue to sharpen due to the geometry. Also knowing what kind of edge finish steels prefer helps in achieving top sharpness.

Phil Wilson's work is one example, he grinds his knives thin enough that you can maintain them with a micro bevel for a large amount of time. And reprofiling them is trivial when the need arises because you don't have to remove a ton of metal.

I digress.

Some stainless steels that have sharpened and taken a very "keen" type of edge are, 154cm, CPM-154, and N690co, just to name a few.

 

[bladeboss]

Well now that I know this isn't a joke...
Here's my opinion.
I've tried to sharpen Gerber's (like you said was "easy") and its damn near impossible.
" A couple licks on the stone and it was razor".
I'd like to know what stone you're using to get that junk steel so sharp.
In my opinion, if you can sharpen Gerber's tin-can-steel so easily, I have NO IDEA why you can't get CRK CPMS35VN just as sharp, if not sharper.

 

[afishhunter]

For super soft steel, try Gerber. Slicing warm butter and spreading it on toast dulls the one and only Gerber knife (lock back from the '70's) that I'll ever own.

 

[pinnah]

Much like some whom love vintage cars, but don't want to directly maintain them. Not much I can say to help this.

B34NS, I think this is a mis-characterization of the OPs post.

It's not a matter of not wanting to maintain old-school steels. He specifically said he wants to maintain them but in a different way than you and many other prefer. He prefers frequent small touch ups and he's not alone in this - this is pretty much the standard in whittling and carving circles and also among many professional meat cutters and chefs. Not all, but many.

We both know the mulberry bush we're about to start chasing heffelumps around so I'll try to stand down.

But I'm wondering if you and Ankerson and the others who see no difference in the ease of sharpening between higher carbide steels and fine carbide steels have spent so long with the higher carbide steels that you've lost your "feel" for the fine carbide steels. I find a noticeable difference between 420HC/12C27/1095 and 440C and this is with diamond stones. I wonder if this discussion is something like trying to taste light scotch after a round of Wild Turkey 101 and everybody's tongue (or in this case, hands) is off kilter?

 

[pinnah]

And I did address that in what I said by using phrases like "don't want to sharpen" (that is their preference) and "I know it is not this way for everyone" (it is my preference but I know it is not other people's).

It amazes me none the less. Just my opinion.

I remain confused. The OP wants to sharpen. He just wants to sharpen easily and frequently on crude stones (and he's not alone). Quoting...

I want to go back to my old ways (80's and 90's) when I had a Gerber that would take 5 licks on $6.00 V-sick and would be sharper than a razor....I was happier with having a knife that was alyays hair popping sharp amd took less than 10 seconds to get that way.. I don't need a blade to cut through 20+ cardboard boxes everyday (as if I worked in a warehouse job> I just want a knife I can use and sharpen easy with white ceramic stones (yes one grade does the trick on super soft steels).

 

[Insipid Moniker]

When I first started sharpening I could puzzle a passable edge onto softer steels without too much difficulty. Steels like D2 and S30V, however, left me frustrated for months until I refined my technique and started to figure out what I was doing. Once I got that down I moved to some steels like M390 and ZDP-189 and had a bit more trouble than I did with S30V but the learning curve wasn't nearly as harsh. Even now, some knives with certain blade shapes and edge angles can still give me fits, but those are the things that have a more pronounced effect on my sharpening than steel type.

In short, I would posit high carbide steels ARE more difficult to sharpen in that you need greater skill and solid technique to sharpen them. Lower carbide, softer steels seem to be more forgiving of my ham-handedness.

 

[Ankerson]

But I'm wondering if you and Ankerson and the others who see no difference in the ease of sharpening between higher carbide steels and fine carbide steels have spent so long with the higher carbide steels that you've lost your "feel" for the fine carbide steels. I find a noticeable difference between 420HC/12C27/1095 and 440C and this is with diamond stones. I wonder if this discussion is something like trying to taste light scotch after a round of Wild Turkey 101 and everybody's tongue (or in this case, hands) is off kilter?

I can tell the difference, both feel and sound.

But as far as time goes, not really with what I typically use to sharpen with.

Re-profiling yes there is a noticeable difference in feel.

My thing is that I can can go 8 months or more with the main knife I use in the kitchen before it starts to lose bite and have to touch it up, takes like maybe 15 seconds on a ceramic, that's S110V @ 65 HRC.

Or

I can sharpen those low alloy steels like 420J2 once a week or every two weeks.

So it's like 8 months between touch ups or 2 to 4 times a month.

Not all that hard to decide between those and it takes the same amount of time for touch ups.

 

[The Aflac Duck]

I can tell the difference, both feel and sound.

But as far as time goes, not really with what I typically use to sharpen with.

Re-profiling yes there is a noticeable difference in feel.

My thing is that I can can go 8 months or more with the main knife I use in the kitchen before it starts to lose bite and have to touch it up, takes like maybe 15 seconds on a ceramic, that's S110V @ 65 HRC.

Or

I can sharpen those low alloy steels like 420J2 once a week or every two weeks.

So it's like 8 months between touch ups or 2 to 4 times a month.

Not all that hard to decide between those and it takes the same amount of time for touch ups.

I feel like a lot of people have their geometry incorrect, so they conclude that it's the type of steel that is causing inconsistent results.

If you're not hitting the apex, you're not touching-up your edge, you're reprofiling it...

 

[Ankerson]

I feel like a lot of people have their geometry incorrect, so they conclude that it's the type of steel that is causing inconsistent results.

If you're not hitting the apex, you're not touching-up your edge, you're reprofiling it...

I don't know what they are doing other than making it much harder than it really needs to be that's for sure and that's very obvious.

 

[justsomedude]

In my personal, very limited experience I have found AEB-L at ~61 HRC (Richmond Artifex) the easiest to touch up on just a loaded strop, or on the Tri-Angle (stock stones).

Don't see it on folders very often though...

Devin Thomas SS damascus uses AEB-L and I find it very easy to sharpen as well, although not as easy as the Richmond. I also don't find it any easier or more difficult than CRK s35vn so...

 

[craytab]

When I first started sharpening I could puzzle a passable edge onto softer steels without too much difficulty. Steels like D2 and S30V, however, left me frustrated for months until I refined my technique and started to figure out what I was doing. Once I got that down I moved to some steels like M390 and ZDP-189 and had a bit more trouble than I did with S30V but the learning curve wasn't nearly as harsh. Even now, some knives with certain blade shapes and edge angles can still give me fits, but those are the things that have a more pronounced effect on my sharpening than steel type.

In short, I would posit high carbide steels ARE more difficult to sharpen in that you need greater skill and solid technique to sharpen them. Lower carbide, softer steels seem to be more forgiving of my ham-handedness.

Yup. This was the same for me. When I first started I couldn't get Aus8 sharp. It took a little time, patients, and practice to get the technique and angles down.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

I feel like a lot of people have their geometry incorrect, so they conclude that it's the type of steel that is causing inconsistent results.

If you're not hitting the apex, you're not touching-up your edge, you're reprofiling it...

Yup.

 

[The Aflac Duck]

In my personal, very limited experience I have found AEB-L at ~61 HRC (Richmond Artifex) the easiest to touch up on just a loaded strop, or on the Tri-Angle (stock stones).

Don't see it on folders very often though...

Devin Thomas SS damascus uses AEB-L and I find it very easy to sharpen as well, although not as easy as the Richmond. I also don't find it any easier or more difficult than CRK s35vn so...

That reminds me of Rockstead...

Their ZDP-189 is at something like 67 HRC and all they recomend to maintain their edges is a piece of denim stretched over a board with metal polish smeared on it. Again, geometry plays the key-role here.

 

[colubrid]

B34NS, I think this is a mis-characterization of the OPs post.

It's not a matter of not wanting to maintain old-school steels. He specifically said he wants to maintain them but in a different way than you and many other prefer. He prefers frequent small touch ups and he's not alone in this - this is pretty much the standard in whittling and carving circles and also among many professional meat cutters and chefs. Not all, but many.

Exactly!.. thanks for clarifying!

 

[colubrid]

I feel like a lot of people have their geometry incorrect, so they conclude that it's the type of steel that is causing inconsistent results.

If you're not hitting the apex, you're not touching-up your edge, you're reprofiling it...

That may well be true. But I got my Spyderfco V sticks and anything that don't sharpen on that (or fit those two angles that come with it) is not for me. If the blade is a soft steel it will re profile quickly anyway.

 

[pinnah]

That may well be true. But I got my Spyderfco V sticks and anything that don't sharpen on that (or fit those two angles that come with it) is not for me. If the blade is a soft steel it will re profile quickly anyway.

Just to clarify...

The issue isn't hardness.

Hardness and abrasion resistance are different things and both have a bearing on sharpening.

Think of hardness like cement that is setting up. While it is still setting up, you can dent it by putting your hand print in it. When it is fully cured, you can't but if you hit real hard, it might break. This is hardness. It is measured on the Rockwell hardness scale usually denoted by Rc. 1095 at 56 Rc will roll an edge at low edge angles but will stay stable at the same edge angle if hardened to 58 Rc. Heat treat determines hardness (for the most part) and this differs from knife maker to knife maker. Case and Buck both use 420HC but harden different to 56 Rc and 58 Rc respectively. The Bucks hold an edge better. Both sharpen up just as easy and if anything, the harder steel hones up more cleanly.

Think of abrasion resistance like cement vs concrete. Concrete resists abrasion better because it has chunks of hard stone. Steels with large carbides are more like concrete. Steels with small fine carbides are like cement. Steels with larger carbides resist abrasion better and thus hold an edge longer. But, they require better stones to cut through the carbides and generally speaking take longer to sharpen on many stones.

Ankerson mentioned 420J2. I would avoid that as it can't hardened above 55Rc.

If you want something that is easy to sharpen with your sharpening system, I would look at 1095, 12C27 and 420HC. I prefer 58 Rc for these kinds of steels and I would definitely restrict my search to knives with 56 Rc.

If you want brands to look at and like modern style knives, I would suggest starting with Buck or Mora. With Buck, ensure the knife is made in the USA and has 420HC. Some of their imports have 420J2 and should be avoided, imo. If you like traditional style knives, look at Buck, Great Eastern Cutlery and Opinel.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Yup. Hardness and wear resistance are two different things. That being said, most people perform mostly low-wear cutting tasks so edge holding is quite good even with low-alloy cutlery steels as long as they aren't poorly heat treated. Heck--I only have to touch up my machetes once in a very great while and I keep them thinner and sharper than most folks are used to.